[Walter Webb]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

It sure looks like a Vito Model 35, ser. 408A, pretty darn rare. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=300318307427

Went for $425. Pictures were horrible, but there was that unmistakeable G# key around the back side, and the extra G hole.

 

[isabelle3]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

Hi, I have a Vito Leblanc alto sax in PRISTINE CONDITION!!! I would say almost NEW!!! the serial # is 8704A in its original case.
Is this the right place to register it???

I will take some pictures and post them

Iam interested in the history of this sax

thanks,
Yvonne:treble:

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

Hi, I have a Vito Leblanc alto sax in PRISTINE CONDITION!!! I would say almost NEW!!! the serial # is 8704A in its original case.
Is this the right place to register it???

I will take some pictures and post them

Iam interested in the history of this sax

thanks,
Yvonne:treble:

Sure if sow members want we can include vito saxophones as well. I have mostly been relying on doctorsax.bz but we can be a supplement to their fine work.

 

[FremontSax]

Updated list:

Leblanc System Saxophones
Serial Number Type Year Model Sales Date Sales Price Source
341 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/341/
422 Tenor Model 120 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/Tenor/2-Tone/422-jd/
430 Tenor Model 120 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net also http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Tenor/2-tone/430/
542 Tenor 1950's Model 120 http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm
664 Tenor ~1958 Model 120 06/21/09 $1,554.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&item=250444325570
670A Alto Model 100 cgi.ebay.com/Rare-LeBlanc-Rationale-System-Alto-Sax_W0QQitemZ400043325425QQcategoryZ16232QQcmdZViewItem
681 Alto 1960 Model 100 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_altsax/
752 Tenor 1960 Model 120 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/leblanc_tenorsax/
775 Tenor 1970's Model 120 04/2009 $1,775.00 ebay included 4 mouth pieces
909 Alto Model 100 http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm
992 Alto Model 100 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net
1015 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxquest.com/popPhotoVie...roductname=MINT+Vintage+G+Leblanc+System+Rationale+Alto+Sax+SN+1015&PhotoNum=27
1105 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1105/
1121 Alto 1969 Model 100 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php
1134 Alto Model 100 www.howarth.uk.com/acrobat/Sax-Flute2h.pdf
1135 Alto Model 100 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html
1142 Alto told 1953ish Model 100 pm saxontheweb - bought via ebay from a seller in France
1180 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1180/
1195 Alto Model 100 www.saxalley.com/saxophones.html
8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html

Leblanc Semi Rationale Saxophones
SR B 70 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/alto/silver/ex1/
SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_s.r./

 

[SaxSanDiego]

Just to add to your list, I have a Leblanc system alto, SN 223. DoctorSax did an excellent job of bringing it back to life for me (http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_2xx.htm). It does not have a high F# key and it does not possess as many key-height adjustment screws as the later horns. It was purchased new. A family member claims it was bought in 1952 but I have no proof of that. My earliest memory of it is 1959 but by then it had been in the family for at least several years.

 

[FremontSax]

Just to add to your list, I have a Leblanc system alto, SN 223. DoctorSax did an excellent job of bringing it back to life for me (http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_2xx.htm). It does not have a high F# key and it does not possess as many key-height adjustment screws as the later horns. It was purchased new. A family member claims it was bought in 1952 but I have no proof of that. My earliest memory of it is 1959 but by then it had been in the family for at least several years.

Thanks San Diego,

So 223, was owned by a member of your family and you had Doctor Sax refurbish it?

223 would be earliest number on our list. Being able to pin it to the early 1950's would be cool.

Looking at your pictures I do see the adjustment screws, yours are different then mine in that I have what looks like a washer with a felt pad on the bottom so that the tone hole cover strikes the felt and thus wouldn't clank. Is there felt that I can't see or rubber or cork on the bottom of your saxes screws? This sax is definitely not a model 100. Thus, I think you have something rare.

Besides missing, the high F# key you also are missing one connection rod to the low b tone hole cover. One of the main features of the Leblanc system horns was that pressing any of the three finger keys on the lower stack (left hand) would lower a note from the upper stack by 1/2.

Keying an B on the upper stack and your right hand middle finger key would thus blow an A sharp. Similarly no keys press on the upper stack is a C# but pressing your right hand ring finger would cause the note to be a C. If you haven't already would you mind checking your sax and seeing if this is true?

I am starting to revert my opinion about the time frame of these saxes. Would you mind, giving us your approximate age... For example, if you were born in 1950 I would expect your memories of 1959 to be much better then if you were born in 1957.

I am also back to wondering about about the serial number sequences of vito and Leblanc. Has anybody seen where two saxes other then the "A" had the same serial number?

Edited to add:

I don't see a good photo of your serial number in Doctorsax's pictures. Could you take one and send it to me. I am really interested in comparing how serial numbers where applied, how uniform and if they were put on before the finish or after. Also, your case is very interesting. Its outside is very similar to my Vito Model 35 case on the outside other then the clasps and it has a different inside setup up and color felt.

Thanks for sharing it,

Edit: Further changes.

Going back and looking at the pictures of SN 341. 341 has the high F# but it also lacks the low B extra rod. 341 has a case very similar to your. 341 has adjustment screws are similar to yours? then to my tenor sn 775.

Edit: more additions

Looking at the photos of SR B 70 it also lacks the low B extra rod but it might have a high f# it has a unique set of keys for thr side of the left hand pointer finger. From SR series to 223 to 341 are we looking at the transition from a system rational to a Leblanc system?

 

[SaxSanDiego]

FremontSax - In answer to your questions, there is cork under the key-height adjustment screws that come in contact with the top of the keycups.

I have a copy of the Leblanc fingering chart and my saxophone has all the alternate fingerings (and produces all the corresponding tones) listed in the chart except for the one requiring the high F# key. So, yes, pressing any of the three left-hand keys lowers the note by a half tone. Like all Leblanc system saxophones, the intonation is excellent.

I'm not sure why Leblanc bothered to add the extra high F# key because the alternate fingering chart shows that this note can also be produced on Leblanc system horns by pressing the front high F key plus the B-flat right-hand side key. This note is easily produced without going into the altissimo range.

In response to the age of my saxophone I called an older family member. She readily remembers playing this Leblanc when she was in fouth grade during the 1952-1953 school year. It was not purchased for her so it was acquired well before the fall of 1952. To this, one has to add the unknown amount of time it sat on the store shelf before it was purchased.

As per your request for a picture of the serial number:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28823461@N07/

Although my saxophone is the earliest on your list, DoctorSax has pictures of SN 122 on his website (http://doctorsax.biz/rationale_122.htm). There are differences between my horn and SN 122. You have already noted differences between my horn and SN 341. What I conclude from this is that these saxophones were, to some degree, hand made, and that the factory made design changes along the way that stabilized, somewhat, after about SN 500.

 

[warp x]

I the fingering chart they also mention the model which has an open low C#. Has anyone actually seen one of these? My guess is it was a custom order.

 

[Collie]

Just a little note :
Comparing the hole bunch of pictures now provided of these rare and - at least technically - fascinating saxes something very interesting seems to show up.

There are a lot of changes during the manufacturing time of the altos. The way the adjustment screws were positioned, the different versions of the front-F-key, singls and double rods for the bell keys, some of the keywork of the upper stack also changed as well as the lower octave hole.
The very late system alto also shows a different body-bow connection (in the same way as the Vito system altos were built) and a different neck receiver (seems to have changed during the 5xx-run).

The tenor did not follow these rules. The neck receiver always looks the same way as the later (post 5xx) altos and the adjustment links always seem to be the same, as the front-F-key does, no signifigant changes in the upper stack keywork or the positioning of the lower octave vent. Even in the run 4xx, where the alto significantly differs.
They changed the positioning of the G# key and doubled the bell key rods.


To make a long story even longer :
The Vito alto is (compared to a 5xx alto) a very different horn. The neck tenon is larger, the bell is larger and its sound is more on the dark, mellow side.

Now to the questions, this story is causing:
Did Leblanc change the neck tenon on their altos (by 5xx)?
Did the very late System horns slowly morphe to the Vito 35 (apart from the adjustment screws)
Are the toneholes of the late System altos still soldered on?
Are there as well differences in sound?

Are there (more) changes in the tenor production such as a different bore size?
Why do the tenors differ that much from the altos even in the same serial run?

Hmmm....that's all folks ... for now

 

[coastalstorm25]

I have a Vito Alto Sax #4402A Kenosha that comes in a LeBlanc case, the case looks old. Can you give me any info on this?

 

[Collie]

Hi coastalstorm,

there are a lot of infos about the Vitos on this site:
http://www.doctorsax.biz/vito_ser_nos.htm

I am pretty sure you will find what you are looking for.
Judging by the serial this might be a Kenosha made Vito....looking a bit like the "35".
It might be useful to use "Kenosha" as additional keyword for your search in the Vito forum.

I think they are really good horns, very much underrated (unfortunately as all vintage Vitos).

 

[warp x]

Some interesting reading here.

 

[Gobo Diddly]

Hello, Saxophonists!!!!

I'm a 44 year old, been in the business for 25 years, jazz musician, recently turned band director in New York City. The very old school where I teach has a LeBlanc alto SN 612 that's been in the band closet for God only knows how long. Here are some pics...

Now I'm a rhythm section player and not so familiar with woodwinds and I'm concerned that the repair person that just suggested that I "get rid" of this horn may not have my best intentions in heart. What do you think this horn is worth? Am I correct to think that this horn was made in France? $$$$ This horn was stored and not in use, but looks to be in good shape, other than some lacquer issues. Is this horn "too good" to put in the hands of a high school student? (even a responsible one) Or am I thinking that I have a horn that is worth more than it really is? Who's the best, most honest, fair-priced sax repair person in Manhattan that I should build a relationship with?

Many thanks for your help....

 

[FremontSax]

Hello, Saxophonists!!!!

I'm a 44 year old, been in the business for 25 years, jazz musician, recently turned band director in New York City. The very old school where I teach has a LeBlanc alto SN 612 that's been in the band closet for God only knows how long. Here are some pics...

Now I'm a rhythm section player and not so familiar with woodwinds and I'm concerned that the repair person that just suggested that I "get rid" of this horn may not have my best intentions in heart. What do you think this horn is worth? Am I correct to think that this horn was made in France? $$$$ This horn was stored and not in use, but looks to be in good shape, other than some lacquer issues. Is this horn "too good" to put in the hands of a high school student? (even a responsible one) Or am I thinking that I have a horn that is worth more than it really is? Who's the best, most honest, fair-priced sax repair person in Manhattan that I should build a relationship with?

Many thanks for your help....

This has the potential to be a very nice saxophone. They are fairly rare and when working and properly set up sound wonderful. Out here in CA I had an alto rebuilt for $600.00. This was a complete strip, clean, re-pad and tune. I am thinking that as is would be worth worth around $600 rebuilt $1200.

 

[saintsday]

Hello, Saxophonists!!!!

I'm a 44 year old, been in the business for 25 years, jazz musician, recently turned band director in New York City. The very old school where I teach has a LeBlanc alto SN 612 that's been in the band closet for God only knows how long. Here are some pics...

Now I'm a rhythm section player and not so familiar with woodwinds and I'm concerned that the repair person that just suggested that I "get rid" of this horn may not have my best intentions in heart. What do you think this horn is worth? Am I correct to think that this horn was made in France? $$$$ This horn was stored and not in use, but looks to be in good shape, other than some lacquer issues. Is this horn "too good" to put in the hands of a high school student? (even a responsible one) Or am I thinking that I have a horn that is worth more than it really is? Who's the best, most honest, fair-priced sax repair person in Manhattan that I should build a relationship with?

Many thanks for your help....

This has the potential to be a very nice saxophone. They are fairly rare and when working and properly set up sound wonderful. Out here in CA I had an alto rebuilt for $600.00. This was a complete strip, clean, re-pad and tune. I am thinking that as is would be worth worth around $600 rebuilt $1200.

I think that Fremont is pretty close with his numbers in the current market. I've seen lacquer altos represented as being in playing condition, but not freshly overhauled, range from about 800 to 1500 over the last several years. Given how nicely they play and the low production it seems like they should sell for more when you compare them to a new Yamaha. In my opinion (which with 4 bucks or so will get you a latte da da) they are undervalued.

 

[warp x]

Alto #145 spotted here.

 

[Gobo Diddly]

Thanks for your help, guys!

So gather I should then keep and repair/rebuild(if necessary) and have our most deserving alto player use it?

Any suggestions on NYC repair people that are good/honest/reasonable in price?

Best, gobo

 

[FremontSax]

Thanks for your help, guys!

So gather I should then keep and repair/rebuild(if necessary) and have our most deserving alto player use it?

Any suggestions on NYC repair people that are good/honest/reasonable in price?

Best, gobo

I can't help you with rebuilds in NYC. But this sax deserves to have a tech who knows its history work on it. As a suggestion, how about auctioning this sax off and using the proceeds to buy a couple of good student level instruments? If a tech would take on the work and a few of us leblanc lovers would chip in you might get 2 or 3 saxes or other instruments out of the deal.

 

[Gobo Diddly]

I can't help you with rebuilds in NYC. But this sax deserves to have a tech who knows its history work on it. As a suggestion, how about auctioning this sax off and using the proceeds to buy a couple of good student level instruments? If a tech would take on the work and a few of us leblanc lovers would chip in you might get 2 or 3 saxes or other instruments out of the deal.

Thanks FremontSax.

That's good advice that I truly need to weight. So based on the horn that currently for sale and the true condition of ours, we could expect anwhere from 500 to 1200 for it?

But on the other hand we've got loads of instruments at the school now, over 10 altos and tenors each, plus two bari's. So I don't really need more, but better. From reading the posts on this thread it seems that when fixed by an experienced tech, the horns are great playing. Right?

Plus, I guess it's time for me to invite some saxophone playing friends in town to come over to the school for some second opinions based on actually seeing and playing the horns.

Thanks again and I'll let you all know what happens.

 

[FremontSax]

From reading the posts on this thread it seems that when fixed by an experienced tech, the horns are great playing. Right?

Yes

Plus, I guess it's time for me to invite some saxophone playing friends in town to come over to the school for some second opinions based on actually seeing and playing the horns.

This is a very good idea.