[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

If you know of other Leblanc (labeled as such) saxophones please post what you know. Maybe we can jointly put together enough info to form a proper serial number to year list.

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

Thanks for taking on this worthy task---although I'm not sure how many responses you'll receive.

Regardless, here's my "contribution":

I recently bought a Leblanc alto, serial #992. I know this horn is commonly referred to as either a "Rationale" or "Semi-Rationale", although it was officially designated by the Leblanc company as a Model 100 (Tenors were Model 120).

From vendor information and Internet sources, I first assumed my horn was made c.1951; on further consideration, it seems likely it was built several years later.

I am running a spread sheet and I will add a model number and publish it periodically upon this forum.

My efforts are minimal.... this to work has to be a collective issue.

Two positive results are possible, one the idea of a serial number to year estimation and two the ratio of altos to tenors..

PM me for a copy of the spread sheet

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

It seems that there are two distinct lines of serial numbers.

SR B xx and xxx

From the xxx group lowest number I have seen is 341 and the highest 1180

The xxx group was listed for sale as model 100 an alto or model 120 a tenor.

1974 leblanc instrument prices wholesale? retail? recommended retail?

www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Leblanc/Leblanc LL UK prices 1974.pdf

Saxgourmet.com does have copies of literature that use the model 100, model 120 and refer to them as having the feature "Leblanc System Fingering" it also refers to these saxophones on the second page as "Leblanc System Saxophones".

Serial Number Type Year Model Source
341 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/341/
422 Tenor Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/Tenor/2-Tone/422-jd/
430 Tenor Semi Rationale Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net also http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Tenor/2-tone/430/
542 Tenor Semi Rationale 1950's http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm
670A Alto Semi Rationale cgi.ebay.com/Rare-LeBlanc-Rationale...c-Rationale-System-Alto-Sax_W0QQitemZ400043325425QQcategoryZ16232QQcmdZViewItem
681 Alto 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_altsax/
752 Tenor 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/leblanc_tenorsax/
775 Tenor Semi Rationale Model 120 ebay
909 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm
992 Alto Semi Rationale Model 100 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net
1015 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxquest.com/popPhotoVie...roductname=MINT+Vintage+G+Leblanc+System+Rationale+Alto+Sax+SN+1015&PhotoNum=27
1105 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1105/
1121 Alto Semi Rationale 1969 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php
1135 Alto Semi Rationale www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html
1180 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1180/
8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html

SR B 70 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/alto/silver/ex1/
SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_s.r./

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

FWIW, I think there were 3 or 4 iterations of system horns and terminology is a problem with them.

Please comment and amend the following if you have definitive information that is more than guess work.

The original rational system horns were developed by Leblanc and Houvenaghel in the 30s. These were essentially all prototypes with super complex keywork including multiple extra keys that varied from horn to horn. These, and all their progeny, were an attempt to make a Boehm system saxophone.
There were apparently only a few dozen made and they never went into full production. Some of the links in the previous post show these.

There next may have been a semi-system horn made, again very low essentially prototype models.

Some time in the fifties, Leblanc made the Leblanc system 120 and 100 models based on the rational system models but with mostly standard key placement and number (placing the F# 3 key between the left pinkies and the palms) and retaining the Boehm tone hole placement. This is what allows the alternate fingerings. The common is wisdom is that there were about 1500 of these made in alto and tenor combined. I've had four of these.

In the sixties there was a Vito model 35 alto using the Leblanc system tone hole placement but with a different body tube and simplified mechanics. I've had several of these. The Johnny Hodges model had a different model number. The serials have an A at the end.

Leblanc system alto:

Johnny Hodges Vito system alto:

I think you are right that including the Vito model 35 there were three different iterations. I haven't bothered to cover the Vito's because doctorsax.biz has done a really good job.

From Leblanc

1) SRB based serial number.

From the photos they look old http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/alto/silver/ex1/

2) The Model 100 and Model 120. I believe these were available into the 1970's given the above Leblanc Instrument Price List which is dated 1974. Similarily if you look at the patent images at gourmetsax you see filing dates in the early 1960's. So my Guess is the Model 100 and Model 120 were available from about 1961 to at least 1974.

3) The Vito Model 35

I have a Vito Model 35 that has serial number 470A with no statement of where it was manufactured. I think Dr. Sax would call this a transitional horn.
Parts probably made in France but assembled in Kenosha, WI

One instrument that I have on my list has a serial number 670A which is very similar to numbers used for the Vito Model 35. But the photos show that it has serial number 670A, the Leblanc engraving on the bell, the adjustment screws for setting up the pads.

One of my interests in this exercise, is to better determine the quantity of these instruments and at least a rough ratio of altos to tenors. I would like to better determine the dates but so far there is a lot of uncertainty.

I have looked at your Johny Hodges Vito photos before and compared them to my model 35. If you ignore the beautiful engraving on the Hodges (difficult to do but) the key work, the neck, the clothing and key guards look identical. So I have included it in my mind as a model 35.

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

Saintsday,

I apologize, I must remember to not just cut a link here on sow because they often get abreviated.

Here is the link. I will correct my link up above as well.

www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Leblanc/Leblanc LL UK prices 1974.pdf

While I am at it. I looked up the exchange rates and inflation rates. These prices do not include the case.

In 1974 a model 100 alto which was listed at 354.64 pounds would have cost $829.86 here in the US. and adjusting for inflation that would be $3584.41 in 2008.
a model 120 tenor which was listed at 427.96 pounds would have cost $1001.43 here in the US and adjusting for inflation that would be $4325.47 in 2008.

Compare that to a French made Selmer today? to a Chinese made tenor?

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

I have(somewhere) an ad showing Vincent Abato introducing & endorsing the Leblanc System horns. This ad dates from 1953.

I really wanted to highlight the above statement. Please look for the above add because if it references the Model 100 model 120 it would push the lower date from 1961 down to 1953.

I haven't looked into historical international patent law, but now days, you generally have one year from filing for a patent in one country to filing for it in other countries and you generally don't file a patent after you release your product. However, you can file (i think extensions) which push the filing date back and thus might help extend the patent. So delays from 1953 to 1961 might be very possible.

I have just received a patent in the US and the next time I talk to the filing lawyer I will risk spending a couple of extra bucks to find out his take on how extensions change filing dates.

Also, you can go to the us patent office web site and do searches on patents. Leon Leblanc as an inventor is there as is Leblanc as an assignee as is Vito. These records are public.

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

from ebay Switzerland

Model 100 serial number 1173

Nice looking horn for 899 Euros

http://cgi.ebay.ch/Leblanc-Leblanc-...74963&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:3|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:50

Very rare and in wonderful condition Leblanc "Leblanc-Systéme" Alto - saxophone Leblanc Model 100.

lots of alternate fingerings

many screws for keymechanism tuning

pads and springs are in good condition

serial number is 1173

no dents or repairs.

Original - case and original - neck plug.

Out of a collection.

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

from: this is actually from out of google's cache

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...no.php+leblanc+saxophone+"model+100"&cd=29&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

80. LEBLANC "Model 100", #1260, laccato, campana incisa € 1.550

 

[FremontSax]

Re: Leblanc Sax Serial Number Regestry

Hi, I have a Vito Leblanc alto sax in PRISTINE CONDITION!!! I would say almost NEW!!! the serial # is 8704A in its original case.
Is this the right place to register it???

I will take some pictures and post them

Iam interested in the history of this sax

thanks,
Yvonne:treble:

Sure if sow members want we can include vito saxophones as well. I have mostly been relying on doctorsax.bz but we can be a supplement to their fine work.

 

[FremontSax]

Updated list:

Leblanc System Saxophones
Serial Number Type Year Model Sales Date Sales Price Source
341 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/341/
422 Tenor Model 120 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/Tenor/2-Tone/422-jd/
430 Tenor Model 120 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net also http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Tenor/2-tone/430/
542 Tenor 1950's Model 120 http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm
664 Tenor ~1958 Model 120 06/21/09 $1,554.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&item=250444325570
670A Alto Model 100 cgi.ebay.com/Rare-LeBlanc-Rationale-System-Alto-Sax_W0QQitemZ400043325425QQcategoryZ16232QQcmdZViewItem
681 Alto 1960 Model 100 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_altsax/
752 Tenor 1960 Model 120 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/leblanc_tenorsax/
775 Tenor 1970's Model 120 04/2009 $1,775.00 ebay included 4 mouth pieces
909 Alto Model 100 http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm
992 Alto Model 100 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net
1015 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxquest.com/popPhotoVie...roductname=MINT+Vintage+G+Leblanc+System+Rationale+Alto+Sax+SN+1015&PhotoNum=27
1105 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1105/
1121 Alto 1969 Model 100 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php
1134 Alto Model 100 www.howarth.uk.com/acrobat/Sax-Flute2h.pdf
1135 Alto Model 100 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html
1142 Alto told 1953ish Model 100 pm saxontheweb - bought via ebay from a seller in France
1180 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1180/
1195 Alto Model 100 www.saxalley.com/saxophones.html
8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html

Leblanc Semi Rationale Saxophones
SR B 70 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/alto/silver/ex1/
SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_s.r./

 

[FremontSax]

Just to add to your list, I have a Leblanc system alto, SN 223. DoctorSax did an excellent job of bringing it back to life for me (http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_2xx.htm). It does not have a high F# key and it does not possess as many key-height adjustment screws as the later horns. It was purchased new. A family member claims it was bought in 1952 but I have no proof of that. My earliest memory of it is 1959 but by then it had been in the family for at least several years.

Thanks San Diego,

So 223, was owned by a member of your family and you had Doctor Sax refurbish it?

223 would be earliest number on our list. Being able to pin it to the early 1950's would be cool.

Looking at your pictures I do see the adjustment screws, yours are different then mine in that I have what looks like a washer with a felt pad on the bottom so that the tone hole cover strikes the felt and thus wouldn't clank. Is there felt that I can't see or rubber or cork on the bottom of your saxes screws? This sax is definitely not a model 100. Thus, I think you have something rare.

Besides missing, the high F# key you also are missing one connection rod to the low b tone hole cover. One of the main features of the Leblanc system horns was that pressing any of the three finger keys on the lower stack (left hand) would lower a note from the upper stack by 1/2.

Keying an B on the upper stack and your right hand middle finger key would thus blow an A sharp. Similarly no keys press on the upper stack is a C# but pressing your right hand ring finger would cause the note to be a C. If you haven't already would you mind checking your sax and seeing if this is true?

I am starting to revert my opinion about the time frame of these saxes. Would you mind, giving us your approximate age... For example, if you were born in 1950 I would expect your memories of 1959 to be much better then if you were born in 1957.

I am also back to wondering about about the serial number sequences of vito and Leblanc. Has anybody seen where two saxes other then the "A" had the same serial number?

Edited to add:

I don't see a good photo of your serial number in Doctorsax's pictures. Could you take one and send it to me. I am really interested in comparing how serial numbers where applied, how uniform and if they were put on before the finish or after. Also, your case is very interesting. Its outside is very similar to my Vito Model 35 case on the outside other then the clasps and it has a different inside setup up and color felt.

Thanks for sharing it,

Edit: Further changes.

Going back and looking at the pictures of SN 341. 341 has the high F# but it also lacks the low B extra rod. 341 has a case very similar to your. 341 has adjustment screws are similar to yours? then to my tenor sn 775.

Edit: more additions

Looking at the photos of SR B 70 it also lacks the low B extra rod but it might have a high f# it has a unique set of keys for thr side of the left hand pointer finger. From SR series to 223 to 341 are we looking at the transition from a system rational to a Leblanc system?

 

[FremontSax]

Hello, Saxophonists!!!!

I'm a 44 year old, been in the business for 25 years, jazz musician, recently turned band director in New York City. The very old school where I teach has a LeBlanc alto SN 612 that's been in the band closet for God only knows how long. Here are some pics...

Now I'm a rhythm section player and not so familiar with woodwinds and I'm concerned that the repair person that just suggested that I "get rid" of this horn may not have my best intentions in heart. What do you think this horn is worth? Am I correct to think that this horn was made in France? $$$$ This horn was stored and not in use, but looks to be in good shape, other than some lacquer issues. Is this horn "too good" to put in the hands of a high school student? (even a responsible one) Or am I thinking that I have a horn that is worth more than it really is? Who's the best, most honest, fair-priced sax repair person in Manhattan that I should build a relationship with?

Many thanks for your help....

This has the potential to be a very nice saxophone. They are fairly rare and when working and properly set up sound wonderful. Out here in CA I had an alto rebuilt for $600.00. This was a complete strip, clean, re-pad and tune. I am thinking that as is would be worth worth around $600 rebuilt $1200.

 

[FremontSax]

Thanks for your help, guys!

So gather I should then keep and repair/rebuild(if necessary) and have our most deserving alto player use it?

Any suggestions on NYC repair people that are good/honest/reasonable in price?

Best, gobo

I can't help you with rebuilds in NYC. But this sax deserves to have a tech who knows its history work on it. As a suggestion, how about auctioning this sax off and using the proceeds to buy a couple of good student level instruments? If a tech would take on the work and a few of us leblanc lovers would chip in you might get 2 or 3 saxes or other instruments out of the deal.

 

[FremontSax]

From reading the posts on this thread it seems that when fixed by an experienced tech, the horns are great playing. Right?

Yes

Plus, I guess it's time for me to invite some saxophone playing friends in town to come over to the school for some second opinions based on actually seeing and playing the horns.

This is a very good idea.

 

[FremontSax]

Model 120 Tenor sold for $1525 on ebay sn 428
Model 100 Alto sold for $725 on ebay no reported sn
Model 100 Alto sold for $600 on Ebay no reported sn

 

[FremontSax]

Edit: I did some googling on Corky Corcoran, he was a hell of a player.
http://corkycorcoran.net/
http://www.jonpolless.com/#Corky_

Good find Warpx

Very Cool ....... well worth listening to the music.

 

[FremontSax]

I can see several details: the large humped upper octave key bar, the forked Eb breather key at the bottom of the stack, and just enough G.LEBLANC engraving on the bell. He says the (Paris) 120 is available for immediate delivery from your LeBlanc dealer!

Perhaps there weren't many on the dealer's shelf, but had to be special ordered. Maybe they could get you in the door and sell you one of those new-fangled Japanese Vitos, or something from Kenosha for a third of the price.

In this thread there is a link to a Leblanc pricing guide for 1974 as I recall. In that price guide the model 100 and model 120 are included. I don't think, leblanc would be including them unless they were willing to manufacture and ship them. Also their listed price was very expensive by todays dollars.

In 1974 a model 100 alto which was listed at 354.64 pounds would have cost $829.86 here in the US. and adjusting for inflation that would be $3584.41 in 2008.
a model 120 tenor which was listed at 427.96 pounds would have cost $1001.43 here in the US and adjusting for inflation that would be $4325.47 in 2008.

 

[FremontSax]

I have been meaning to post this tidbit.

From a Leblanc Add. 1963 Al Belletto portrait.

Leblanc 1000 Alto $650

The Vito "Artiste" Models
38SC Curved Soprano $425
39 Alto $550
39T Tenor $610
39BA Baritone (To Low A) $775
39BB Bass $925

First thing that caught my eye is that the Vito Model 35 is not listed.

Second: an inflation calculator claims what cost 1$ in 1963 would cost $7.01 in 2009.

So that model 100 would have a retail price of $4500

 

[FremontSax]

I have been meaning to post this tidbit.

From a Leblanc Add. 1963 Al Belletto portrait.

Leblanc 1000 Alto $650

The Vito "Artiste" Models
38SC Curved Soprano $425
39 Alto $550
39T Tenor $610
39BA Baritone (To Low A) $775
39BB Bass $925

First thing that caught my eye is that the Vito Model 35 is not listed.

Second: an inflation calculator claims what cost 1$ in 1963 would cost $7.01 in 2009.

So that model 100 would have a retail price of $4500

Early, I showed the 1974 price adjusted for inflation to be around $3500 (for i think 2007 dollars)
This one shows that the 1963 price would have been around $4500

so we are looking at a price drop from 1963 to 1974 in 2009 dollars of I would guess $800 or so.