Both my daughters play oboe and we have spent more on their oboes than a near-Mint Mark VI goes for. Would never dream of spending that on my saxes. To be fair, a new Selmer Series III tenor is comparable in price to a new Loree oboe (considered the best oboe by most in the U.S.). The other thing is that because of the wood, the bore changes over time, and oboes can lose some of the life in their sound. Oboeists say they are "blown out". So one has to be careful buying used oboes. We won't get into the effect of variations in the wood itself on the tone , but oboeists swear by it.

 

I’ve heard the blown out thing about clarinets. I’ve also heard it’s hokum like Klangbogens and high mass screws. Who knows.

Interesting video. I had no idea it took that much time and effort to make an oboe.

 

Seems like there ought to be a good oboe joke here but it's eluding me.

Seriously though, that's fascinating. I love to see skilled artisans at work. Even the wood case looks like a work of art.

 

The soprano saxophone should have rendered oboes obsolete

Oboe fingerings are ridiculous and the whole double reed thing is a world unto itself. Oboists spend half their time making reeds and tuning them to go after that "sound in their heads". I suppose not having to improvise leaves extra time for such things. I'm on a roll now...

 

The soprano saxophone should have rendered oboes obsolete

Oboe fingerings are ridiculous and the whole double reed thing is a world unto itself. Oboeists spend half their time making reeds and tuning them to go after that "sound in their heads". I suppose not having to improvise leaves extra time for such things. I'm on a roll now...

Meaning that you're talking trash and you know it. FWIW, one of the best jazz tenor players that I know was also an oboe player. He was heavy into Coltrane.

 

Yeah, I saw that video. I was excited at first, but they lost me when they started talking about how these $14k oboes are "four times the price of a high-end professional flute". That's a sign that the producers of this video don't really know what they are talking about (high-end pro flutes regularly sell for >$20k, and you'd be lucky to find even a low-end pro flute new for <$4k ). The part about the African blackwood harvesting and processing was interesting too, but not as an explanation to "why are oboes so expensive". Many far less expensive instruments are also made of African blackwood.

As an infomercial (i.e., "sponsored content") it's pretty good. But it comes off more as an ad than as something genuinely attempting to answer the title question.

 

Many far less expensive instruments are also made of African blackwood.

Like my acoustic guitar - I believe he says it is Madagascar blackwood

 

I was thinking "Seems like a great application for polymers" before they started showing the enormous amount of work trying to stabilize the joints.

Viewing a website that sells Howarth oboes, it is interesting to see how many models have synthetic liners. What then, is the point of a wood body when it is just a vehicle for a plastic tube?

New Howarth Oboes For Sale | Buy New Howarth Oboes Online

MMI carries new Howarth oboes. Request a trial today.

www.mmimports.com

 

I was thinking "Seems like a great application for polymers" before they started showing the enormous amount of work trying to stabilize the joints.

Viewing a website that sells Howarth oboes, it is interesting to see how many models have synthetic liners. What then, is the point of a wood body when it is just a vehicle for a plastic tube?

Yeah. Selmer Paris recently introduced the "Evolution" system for all of their professional clarinets, which consists of inserting a synthetic liner into the top joint. They even paid to have a researcher make acoustic measurements (by blinded players) to show that the clarinets with and without liners played indistinguishably. But, of course, they didn't go the rest of the way.

I think it just comes down to the fact that clarinetists believe that wood is better. I suspect that's very much the same reason that Buffet finds it necessary (i.e., for marketing purposes) to put wood dust into the resin of their Greenline clarinets. I also suspect that no amount of scientific measurement will overcome this belief, at least not in the near term.

 

I think the high pricing is a trick to try to get people to be interested in them. They sound stupid. Like someone with a deep voice trying to sing with a bad cold.

 

Many doublers use the Fox oboes that are made of plastic, and I’ve heard them recommended by serious classical oboists.

I played oboe for a few years, once I stopped working those kinds of gigs I stopped playing it. Haven’t looked back…. Yusef Lateef has my admiration, not just for playing onoe, but that’s definitely a factor.

OK here’s an oboe joke. What’s the difference between oboe and English horn? The English horn burns 30 minutes longer.

 

 

I am starting to question the sustainability of playing an instrument made from grenadilla. This wood does not seem to be sustainably grown, other than the cultivation fee, based on the information from the video. I would perform due diligence and research this topic independently, but I have other problems, 😝

There’s a great future in plastics.

 

played oboe for a while. the fingerings wert that difficult for me as they are almost the same as albert system clarinet which i also play sometimes for fun. i could not develop any endurance in the chops department after months of practice. reeds? forget real cane. synth is the only way to go when learning or you will quickly go broke/nuts with real cane. the fibercane reeds i used didn't sound any different than the cane ones. i bet the legere oboe reed is worth every bit of the 120$ it costs

 

Interesting -- never heard of "fibercane" reeds... any links to them? We pay a local professional oboeist who plays in the symphony to make reeds for my daughters at $25 each. My daughter took a reedmaking class for a year but apparently it takes longer than that to learn to make good enough reeds !?!?!? Does this sound logical? Commercially available oboe reeds just don't cut it. Even the knives and tools for making reeds are a substantial investment. This is very subtle stuff.

 

I played on a Loree in college (about 50 years ago), but since then I couldn't afford one so I ended up with a set of Gordets. I was a double major (sax and oboe). I still play a few gigs on oboe, but the reed problem is a real thing. I used to have a friend who played in the symphony who would make the blanks for me and then I'd finish them to my liking. For serious oboists, reed making never goes away. My second go around in college was on flute and clarinet. I've spent more money on good instruments, but have stuck with the Gordets. I have about a dozen reeds left and when they're gone I'm hanging up my double reeds. For those of you who haven't played a double reed, imagine playing your sax with a new mouthpiece and reed every time you pick it up. Finally, the sound will change as the wood matures. This doesn't necessarily mean that the sound will get worse, but it may become necessary to modify the reeds to get the sound you're seeking.

 

The Chinese have started to reproduce.lordy knows what you would actually get but its very fair to assume that people will buy them and report success. As per I would not expect to hear about the nightmares.

This product is no longer available.

This product is no longer available.

m.alibaba.com

 

Well, Ridenour has introduced high quality plastic clarinets, and it appears there's the beginning of an acceptance of them. Anyone that knows anything about materials science and the history of instrument making will recognize that the heavy dense woods of different species (and terms like "African blackwood", "Madagascar blackwood", "Grenadilla" are not precise terms; a lot of different species get called those names, kind of like "North Atlantic whitefish") were chosen for their relative stability with variations in humidity and temperature and the ability to precisely (precisely, that is, in the context of 1700) machine them - at a time when there WERE no plastics.

Frankly I believe there is no reason other than ...TRADITION!!!... for wooden clarinets and oboes in the modern day. Modern plastics can far outperform woods as to consistency, stability, durability, and the ability to machine them with high precision.

Pretty much every corner of the musical instrument world is shot through with myth, legend, and unsubstantiated claims. I can list irreproducible claims backed up with blowing smoke and vaporware, for hours on end.

 

Well, Ridenour has introduced high quality plastic clarinets, and it appears there's the beginning of an acceptance of them. Anyone that knows anything about materials science and the history of instrument making will recognize that the heavy dense woods of different species (and terms like "African blackwood", "Madagascar blackwood", "Grenadilla" are not precise terms; a lot of different species get called those names, kind of like "North Atlantic whitefish") were chosen for their relative stability with variations in humidity and temperature and the ability to precisely (precisely, that is, in the context of 1700) machine them - at a time when there WERE no plastics.

Frankly I believe there is no reason other than ...TRADITION!!!... for wooden clarinets and oboes in the modern day. Modern plastics can far outperform woods as to consistency, stability, durability, and the ability to machine them with high precision.

Pretty much every corner of the musical instrument world is shot through with myth, legend, and unsubstantiated claims. I can list irreproducible claims backed up with blowing smoke and vaporware, for hours on end.

Well said! I think that most of the Ridenour instruments are actually composite instruments rather than plastic. The composites consist of sawdust (mostly from the boring of solid wood instruments) and then combined with adhesives. Some of the composite instruments actually get a darker sound than the solid wood counterparts. The obvious advantage is that the composite is more dense and not sensitive to changes in humidity. With all that said, I'll stick with my wood piccolo, clarinets, oboe and English horn. The hand finished instruments can't be matched with machine made or assembly line instruments. The high cost comes from many hours of a highly trained builder.

 

yea if not for the fiber cane oboe reeds i would have never messed with the thing. ended up selling for 3x what i paid for it so all good .

 

I have 3 oboes, as that has been my primary instrument until discovering how much I love playing bari. One is a Buffet Greenline (resin and wood mix) that I consider to be a reed trumpet--lacks some refinement but great for outdoor playing. The second is a Laubin, which is a handmade U.S. oboe that is preferred by many to Loree. It was my most expensive oboe, clocking in at nearly 14k in 2018. My third is a Yamaha Duet, which is wood with a plastic liner to prevent cracks. It is slightly lacking in personality but very reed tolerant and easy to play. The reed situation has changed in the decades that I have been playing. I know how to make reeds, but it is too time-consuming for me at this stage of my life, and not at all rewarding. It used to be that you could not buy a decent reed, but now there are professional reed-makers that hand-create very impressive reeds. They are really expensive (about 30 each) but are close enough to what I need that I can adjust them and make them play beautifully. I have yet to find a synthetic reed that works. The old Fibercane reeds sound truly awful. Legere makes a synthetic reed (in the European style only, unfortunately, different scrape) that some American players seem to be able to use but they don't work for me. The middle register is decent, but upper and lower are flat, flat, flat and sound very thin. Still waiting on an American scrape Legere. All this BS is why I prefer playing bari. Puts the fun back in music.

 

Thanks for posting! This is what we have heard from oboe teachers (who also play professionally) as well -- the Legeres are not useful. How long do you think it should take to learn to make your own reeds? Should a year of classes once a week at a good music conservatory be enough, with some practice outside class? Or does it take years? If so, why?

 

Twenty years ago I drove my then 12 year old daughter to the WWBW showroom/store in Indiana. She had been using a school owned/maintained plastic Fox Renard for 2 years and was more than ready for her own oboe.
She tried an example of every brand they had in stock and chose a Bulgheroni. Italian made, wood top joint, silver plated keys... a very nicely appointed instrument, and considerably more expensive than my Selmer Signature clarinet.
She's still playing it regularly.
Blowout in my opinion is a load of bullpoop.
The key to keeping an older oboe sounding great is keeping it maintained by a tech who actually knows the intricacies of these instruments. They are FUSSY and exceptional oboe techs are few and far between.
You can find decent commercially made reeds. She gets a few and does a little judicial scraping to balance them. No different than balancing a sax or clarinet reed. (And yes, she does know how to make her own but it's cost prohibitive)
Woodwind snobbery is still very much alive.

 

Twenty years ago I drove my then 12 year old daughter to the WWBW showroom/store in Indiana. She had been using a school owned/maintained plastic Fox Renard for 2 years and was more than ready for her own oboe.
She tried an example of every brand they had in stock and chose a Bulgheroni. Italian made, wood top joint, silver plated keys... a very nicely appointed instrument, and considerably more expensive than my Selmer Signature clarinet.
She's still playing it regularly.
Blowout in my opinion is a load of bullpoop.
The key to keeping an older oboe sounding great is keeping it maintained by a tech who actually knows the intricacies of these instruments. They are FUSSY and exceptional oboe techs are few and far between.
You can find decent commercially made reeds. She gets a few and does a little judicial scraping to balance them. No different than balancing a sax or clarinet reed. (And yes, she does know how to make her own but it's cost prohibitive)
Woodwind snobbery is still very much alive.

I have played some wonderful oboes made in the 1920's that still sound marvelous. While I can't say with any certainty that blowout is completely not a thing, it's certainly not true that every oboe made before 20XX is not worth a thing. I would, however, argue that adjusting an oboe reed is way harder than balancing a clarinet/sax reed. Because of the very small surface area and the curve of the playing surface it is much easier to trash an oboe reed with an errant scrape.

 

Out of curiosity, since grenadilla and costs of such exotic wood has been a topic in this thread. Has anybody an idea what the pure costs for grenadilla wood are when building eg a clarinet?

Alphorn

 

I am interested to learn whether clarinet joints have similar issues of stabilizing the blanks as they are incrementally machined to fine tolerances. Costs include labor and waste. If the bodies crack, then the labor and materials are lost. I also heard the message that a great deal of the cost is the mechanism.

 

Interesting video obviously targeted at a less technical audience than this one.

I love my wood clarinets and bass clarinet, but if I ever buy new ones, they will be some kind of synthetic material.

Instrument making is probably a relatively insignificant portion of African blackwood use compared to knife handles and furniture, but instrument-grade (and size!) specimens of this wood are only going to get scarcer. "Solutions" like putting a synthetic tube inside of the wood seem like a way for manufacturers to use lower grade wood for cosmetic purposes and use stable materials for the parts that do the work. Nothing wrong with synthetics, it just seems silly to have to pay for the wood at all!

Buffet's greenline is really cool, even though the marketing speak about grenadilla dust makes me roll my eyes every time I see it. At some point I expect selmer to produce a comparable synthetic line of clarinets.

I have a bass clarinet neck half (the part after the tuning slide) that was 3D printed in a "wood composite" that's fantastic. Maybe something like that will be an option in the future, though I'm not sure additive manufacturing will offer significant benefits over molding or machining. It certainly allows for shapes that would be prohibitively expensive to do in wood!

Of course, my wooden instruments will likely last me for the rest of my life, so I'm happy to wait patiently and see where things go.

 

I have read that the bores of wooden instruments shrink over age, even with oiling, and this changes the bore proportions, making the instruments play flatter. I could see how that could affect tone. I can't confirm or refute this, just repeating what I saw written somewhere.

 

There's a video of Morrie Backun working on Ricardo Morales' grenadilla clarinet, where he measures the bore of his instrument, founds out it has shrunk, and reams the bore to the original proportions.

 

Since the panic-demic I have been watching a lot of YouTube. One of the ppl I follow is Jennett Ingle, the “5-minute Reedmaker”. I enoy watching her make reeds, but mostly what it’s done is convince me to leave my crappy, leaking, split doubler’s oboe in its case.

I bring this up as a possible source of info for those of you crazy enough to keep playing the o-boy. Some of the things she says and does resonate with me as an adjuster of single reeds.

 

Since the panic-demic I have been watching a lot of YouTube. One of the ppl I follow is Jennett Ingle, the “5-minute Reedmaker”. I enoy watching her make reeds, but mostly what it’s done is convince me to leave my crappy, leaking, split doubler’s oboe in its case.

I bring this up as a possible source of info for those of you crazy enough to keep playing the o-boy. Some of the things she says and does resonate with me as an adjuster of single reeds.

Thank you! I will check that out. Always looking for tips.

 

In the hands of a real artist/professional there is no instrument as beautiful as an oboe, English Horn, or bassoon. Of course you have to listen to the music that’s best suited for these wonderful instruments…….

 

Sometimes I wish I had stayed with the bassoon (played through college), then I remember how much I love the tenor sax.

 

Oboes are expensive because they can double as a torture device for both player and listener.
🤡

 

I've had a beginner oboist and beginner violinist in my home, at the same time.
My ears and the hair on the back of my neck are thankful that they improved quickly. 😂

 

On the fingerings issue, the oboe/EH is made to play fast runs and trills. They have all kinds of alternate fingerings to make it easier to land on one note from another. When I play sax, I often wish there were fingerings like on the oboe to make certain transitions easier, like low E sharp to D sharp. My Martin Bari doesn't even have the chromatic F#. One fingering combo that's awkward on both is ABCA.

 

If you're looking for a sax with extra fingerings, you should find one of the old Leblanc 100 altos. It'll take a minute to get used to the extra fingerings, but makes life a lot easier.

 

I'm lucky enough to live where I can try a bunch of oboes or English Horns at the same time. Here's a photo of what Peter Hurd laid out for me when I was trying out English Horns. I got to try out all the major (and some minor) brands except Howarth (which was on my list): Loree, Malerne, Margeaux, Kreul, Bulgheroni, Fossati... some newer, some older. If I would have bought on description alone, I probably would have picked a newer Bulgheroni, but went with a Kreul based on sound and control.

 

Thanks for mentioning Peter Hurd. He has a great and very informative website. Except that he is critical of F. Loree AK models for being too bright and brash. They seem very popular, but now that he mentions it, I understand what he means. Having just bought my daughter a new AK, I don't want to hear this. He is also correct about the Royale being a duller sound.

My guess is that you would be skeptical of this "blown out" thing...

 

When I play sax, I often wish there were fingerings like on the oboe to make certain transitions easier, like low E sharp to D sharp.

You mean E flat to D flat I assume? F to Eb would be no problem on sax.

 

You are correct!