I play Conn 10M tenor and I was wondering what differences a C Melody tenor sax has compared to the Bb Tenor. Besides the different key are there any major differences?
blacktenorsax
Blacktenor: While the pitch (Bb vs. C) is a significant difference, the size of each horn is different (the C being smaller), the position of the C-tenor is somewhat different (hard to describe but many folks think the C is not as comfortable to hold as a Bb tenor (I'm among those who thinks the C, at least MY C-Mel, is uncomfortable compared to my tenor), and the tonal qualities of each horn are different.
The C-Mel tenor has an unusual timbre and it may be because of the bore design (a subject of some debate here on SOTW).
Lastly, C saxophones are no longer in production (another controversy here on SOTW) so if you find one to buy, it will be of vintage design, not modern. DAVE
The C-Mel tenor has an unusual timbre and it may be because of the bore design (a subject of some debate here on SOTW).
Lastly, C saxophones are no longer in production (another controversy here on SOTW) so if you find one to buy, it will be of vintage design, not modern. DAVE
It's odd to think that way, Bruce, because it is actually a tenor sax (C tenor), but I do see the point.
The C tenor was something of a novelty instrument in the early days of the saxophone. It was marketed to the unsuspecting as being suitable for playing at home with a piano and using the melody like (hence the name, Melody) of a piano score.
It is making a (very) small comeback in the UK in folk groups playing traditional folk music.
The reputation is that it is the wost of all saxes to keep in tune. I don't have any experience of this, it is just what my tutor told me when I first started out on sax. I suspect that Dave and Bruce can comment more on this.
The C tenor was something of a novelty instrument in the early days of the saxophone. It was marketed to the unsuspecting as being suitable for playing at home with a piano and using the melody like (hence the name, Melody) of a piano score.
It is making a (very) small comeback in the UK in folk groups playing traditional folk music.
The reputation is that it is the wost of all saxes to keep in tune. I don't have any experience of this, it is just what my tutor told me when I first started out on sax. I suspect that Dave and Bruce can comment more on this.
It took some work and a few mouthpieces, but my 1920-ish TT C tenor is as happy as a clam, intonation-wise with my JodyJazz 6* HR. It is also a damned good player, having completed its overhaul and breakin/adjustment period. It was no worse to bring up to snuff, in terms of getting used to its quirks, than any other sax, and better than many.
That's often because people are trying to use alto or tenor mouthpieces.Pinnman said:
You'll get a similar result if you try to use an alto mouthpiece on soprano. How 'bout that! :shock:
Interestingly, to me at least, was that my Buescher TT C tenor was NOT happy, pitchwise, with the completely unmarked huge-chamber stock piece that came with it. My tenor mouthpiece saved the day, though, when my alto pieces did not.
Blacktenor: One of the most famous jazzers to play C-Mel tenor was Frank "Tram" Trumbauer, who made many recordings in the 1920's with Bix Beiderbecke and others.
Go to www.redhotjazz.com (you'll need RealPlayer to listen, but that is a free download), search for "Trumbauer" and look through his recordings for TRUMBOLOGY. Amazing playing! DAVE
Go to www.redhotjazz.com (you'll need RealPlayer to listen, but that is a free download), search for "Trumbauer" and look through his recordings for TRUMBOLOGY. Amazing playing! DAVE
Dr G - the reason that tenor and alto mouthpieces (to a great extent) do work on C-Mels is because there is only a tone and a minor third difference between the respective saxes.
To compare that with your (quote) "if you try to use an alto mouthpiece on soprano" example is hardly a sensible comparison. What do you use on your C-Melody ?
To compare that with your (quote) "if you try to use an alto mouthpiece on soprano" example is hardly a sensible comparison. What do you use on your C-Melody ?
cmelodysax, Some questions can be difficult; in this case because my old tutor died over a decade ago. He did have a C tenor, though, and that is how it happened that, in my relative youth and inexperience, I asked the question about his unusual looking sax. Was he speaking out of prejudice? - well, he played with some of the most famous of British band leaders in the 30s & 40s, so I think he knew his onions.
That said, necessarily I think, your website references look remarkably interesting. I'll follow them up when I have a moment.
That said, necessarily I think, your website references look remarkably interesting. I'll follow them up when I have a moment.
Pinnman - sad to say that, until I had time to experiment with C-mels, I had the standard misconceptions about them. I will concede that most sax players, confronted with a C-mel and the 'stock' 20's mouthpiece, would almost certainly not take the instrument seriously.
I don't think C-Mels will ever completely get over that hurdle, but some very fine instruments were built (especially towards the end of the C-mel era), and, combined with a better mouthpiece, do have a useful role to play......
I don't think C-Mels will ever completely get over that hurdle, but some very fine instruments were built (especially towards the end of the C-mel era), and, combined with a better mouthpiece, do have a useful role to play......
Truer words were never spoken!cmelodysax said:
Sadly prejudice based just on anecdotal evidence isn't only restricted to C-mels.
It's also used for platings, lacquers, reeds, ligatures, mouthpieces, pads, reso's, and just about everything else pertaining to the world of saxophones. One guy comes up with a half baked theory, five guys repeat it, then twenty five and before you know it, "It's the Gospel Truth"! :x Approach things with an open mind and don't get caught up in all that "Weird Science" & "Horse Hockey"!
AS far as intonation, I see no real difference with an Alto, Tenor ir C mpc. I currently have a Martin and when changing mpc. I thin it is more what you are used to playing. I am mostly and Alto player and find the Alto piece to be the best for me. The biggest problem is response in the low end but with a Tenor, I have trouble with getting enough control overall. The original C pieces really have the best overall response, but oh, what a muffled sound. I will probably bit the bullet and get a Morgan one day but for now it is hard for me to spend over $150 for a mpc for a horn I paid $85 for! I think there is a good future for the C and to me the mouthpiece quest is the biggest as the horns are plentiful on ebay. There have been some nice gold plated ones recently in the $500 range.
Back to the intonation; I think that a Buescher, Martin or Conn C Melody is no more out of tune than an Alto or Tenor of the era. We just tend to not be able to adjust to the heavy resistance of the bore and expect it to be as free as a tenor. I find it almost like going from a Soprano to a Clarinet. I still stick by me assessment of it being more Alto like than like a Tenor. It may be only a step off from a tenor but it is still only a step and a half from an Alto.
For a mpc opening I use the theory of being 40% away form a tenor and 60% form an alto, thus if I like a.075 on Alto and a .095 on Tenor, I should like about a .087 on a C melody.
Back to the intonation; I think that a Buescher, Martin or Conn C Melody is no more out of tune than an Alto or Tenor of the era. We just tend to not be able to adjust to the heavy resistance of the bore and expect it to be as free as a tenor. I find it almost like going from a Soprano to a Clarinet. I still stick by me assessment of it being more Alto like than like a Tenor. It may be only a step off from a tenor but it is still only a step and a half from an Alto.
For a mpc opening I use the theory of being 40% away form a tenor and 60% form an alto, thus if I like a.075 on Alto and a .095 on Tenor, I should like about a .087 on a C melody.
Agreed. The entire musical establishment was prejuduced against Adolphe Sax from the outset, amongst other things because he threatened their livelihood.
Prejudice has continued to this day, especially amongst the clasical community and classical composers. (Note the word, 'amongst', i.e. by no means all.) It is understandable, in a sense, because the saxophone lacks the consistency of other instruments; put it this way, the sound from one saxophonist differs from that of the next (a much considered point on SOTW, of course).
I hate to say it, but utter codswallop. This is a man who played with top bands and ran a music store for 30 years. He taught saxophone and clarinet and arranged for bands in the UK's largest entertainments centre outside London. Yet he owned two saxes, a Bb tenor and a C tenor (plus a clarinet). (And he didn't suffer from GAS; he bought the Bb in the 1930s and kept it until he died, although I don't know when he acquired the C tenor.)
Is this really someone you can safely and justifiably accuse of prejudice against the C tenor? You did not know all this, of course, but that is not the point. So I think it reasonable to quote from someone elsewhere in this thread:
C Melody MPC
I've noted a lot of comments about Cmels not playing well with alto or tenor mpcs, so here's my 2 cents worth. I was given a 1911 Holton cmel, (certainly not what I'd call a fine instrument) but repadded it and got it to play. It had a noname mpc, looked like an alto piece, sounded stuffy. Bought a new Beechler C mel mpc, much louder and edgy but the intonation was poor, didn't like the sound at all. Then I tried an old Buescher alto piece. It is quieter than the Beechler but - the intonation on this horn is quite good! Go figure.
I've noted a lot of comments about Cmels not playing well with alto or tenor mpcs, so here's my 2 cents worth. I was given a 1911 Holton cmel, (certainly not what I'd call a fine instrument) but repadded it and got it to play. It had a noname mpc, looked like an alto piece, sounded stuffy. Bought a new Beechler C mel mpc, much louder and edgy but the intonation was poor, didn't like the sound at all. Then I tried an old Buescher alto piece. It is quieter than the Beechler but - the intonation on this horn is quite good! Go figure.
Did you get your question answered thru all that?
My c mel works nicely with an old c mel mpc.
The bore size is not much bigger than an alto tho longer.
Bb tenors are fatter.
only 2 half steps different.
C mels sound "gostozo"
My c mel works nicely with an old c mel mpc.
The bore size is not much bigger than an alto tho longer.
Bb tenors are fatter.
only 2 half steps different.
C mels sound "gostozo"
When I put a stock C-mel mouthpiece back on a C-Mel just for a bit of nostalgia (to replace the normal tenor Lawton/Link/Berg) it gives a not unreasonable sound - with modern bass clari reeds, and once I've got used to the closed lay. I can understand why some players use the old mpcs.
But then when I revert back to the modern tenor mpcs - that's when you really notice the difference ! Different horses for different courses....
Do vintage tenor players (the sax, not the player..) use the vintage 'stock' tenor mouthpieces on their vintage tenors ? I suspect not, in most cases.
But then when I revert back to the modern tenor mpcs - that's when you really notice the difference ! Different horses for different courses....
Do vintage tenor players (the sax, not the player..) use the vintage 'stock' tenor mouthpieces on their vintage tenors ? I suspect not, in most cases.
G
27 Martin C - Mel
I agree with CMelodySax. A modern MPC for any C-Mel is a must. The one thing I find that a modern MPC gives is an open, NON-muffled sound.
One thing I havn't heard too much discussion about is the power and
versatility these horns offer. It's hard for me to explain, but when I
play a C Mel, It feels like no other. Sweet & soft like the best altos,
yet powerful and strident like the best Tenors.
Since these horns are fairly inexpensive, pick one up and spend a little
time with one when you can. It may just surprise you. It surprised me !
Toobz
I agree with CMelodySax. A modern MPC for any C-Mel is a must. The one thing I find that a modern MPC gives is an open, NON-muffled sound.
One thing I havn't heard too much discussion about is the power and
versatility these horns offer. It's hard for me to explain, but when I
play a C Mel, It feels like no other. Sweet & soft like the best altos,
yet powerful and strident like the best Tenors.
Since these horns are fairly inexpensive, pick one up and spend a little
time with one when you can. It may just surprise you. It surprised me !
Toobz
I can understand a beginner not knowing of C Melody saxes,blacktenorsax said:
but a teacher ?????? Duh !!!
My own experience would be in total keeping with previous replies, I found my C mel very stuffy using the original mouthpieces so had some opened up, this made a vast difference although the upper stack was still slightly stuffy. I then invested in one of Ed Svoboda's Tenor Chicago Mouthpieces and this time the improvement was incredible whilst keeping great intonation.
With regard to the ergonomics I feel that by being a vintage returnee to the saxophone I probably have an advantage as I'm not really that used to modern keywork, basically I do'nt know any better; sometimes ignorance is bliss.
The one thing I have difficulty with is the vehemence that is aroused when C melodies are mentioned anyone would think that playing these instruments was akin to devil worship, note a recent thread on another, nameless forum, when a father asked for advice re getting a c for his 12 year old son. I can understand people not accepting that the c has a future but why the hostility? Exactly what harm are we doing by keeping a vintage instrument alive and, possibly, seeing it re-introduced. In almost any other area of endeavour keeping the past alive seems to be accepted as laudable, but apparently not in the world of saoxophones, can anyone explain .
With regard to the ergonomics I feel that by being a vintage returnee to the saxophone I probably have an advantage as I'm not really that used to modern keywork, basically I do'nt know any better; sometimes ignorance is bliss.
The one thing I have difficulty with is the vehemence that is aroused when C melodies are mentioned anyone would think that playing these instruments was akin to devil worship, note a recent thread on another, nameless forum, when a father asked for advice re getting a c for his 12 year old son. I can understand people not accepting that the c has a future but why the hostility? Exactly what harm are we doing by keeping a vintage instrument alive and, possibly, seeing it re-introduced. In almost any other area of endeavour keeping the past alive seems to be accepted as laudable, but apparently not in the world of saoxophones, can anyone explain .
The harm is advising someone who knows very little about the saxophone to spend money and fix up a horn for their child who will not be able to play it in any organized groups common for such level of ability. For a student to blossom and grow in ability, not being able to play in modern ensembles would be an extreme handicap. I find it wholly irresponsible to advise a parent who is seeking a horn for their chiold to buy a C Melody. You interpret that viewpoint as hostility. I find it to be common sense.pease-pudding said:
If you read my reply on that particular thread you will note that I acknowledge that even on the C Melody forum the advise may well be to stick to more "accepted" saxophones for a beginner, so on that we agree. However, where I think we must agree to differ is regarding the attitude towards C melodies on the whole, I feel that there are number of posters on various forums who can only be described as hostile, there is a level of animosity towards these instruments, and prehaps those who support them, which goes far beyond simply not seeing them as relevant or as having a future, it is this I find difficult to understand.
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