Yes, anyone can become a saxophone importer, but it's unlikely you'll find a manufacturer who will sell you less than a minimum quantity or order size, even if it was economically viable for your shipping costs of just one saxophone. It's often not a single "factory" you deal with, but an agent.

If you look around there's lots of threads already, especially a Maxtone thread. They used to sell single horns directly but not any more.

Part of the reason is probably pressure from the established online and physical retailers and importers (middlemen) who don't like to see a factory selling direct to the public at wholesale prices (for obvious reasons).

The best way to make contact and see for yourself is to get along to a big trade fair. You get to meet and discuss what the options are with the companies, though often many the reps at those fairs may be quite junior in the company. To speak to someone more senior it's useful for you to appear businesslike, at least have an impressive business card and look serious about it.

But, as has been mentioned many times, very often the similarities in looks of the instruments can be misleading. Even if some things appear identical, it only means the design is the same, not the construction quality.

At the trade fairs I have seen incredibly cheap Taiwanese horns, e.g. a few hundred dollars, that look the same as or almost identical to the more expensive brands, but you need to look very closely and playtest.

I'm sure there are people out there buying a horn for $300 and selling it for $2000 with a lousy guarantee, after sales service and/or return policy, but time will hopefully sort out these people..

Gone are the days of "all Taiwanese horns are the same".

 

Thanks Pete--I just keep seeing people getting there own horn lines...like Rhueben Allen and Gary Sugal, Barone etc...people that did other things BEFORE getting in on the sax business...Makes me wonder how it all works...

 

Makes me wonder how it all works...

It can work on different levels, e.g:

At the lowest level someone might start a one-man mail order company, advertise and take orders, then order the saxophones from Taiwan. This typically might take several months. They and the customer can easily come unstuck if the horn turns up and is damaged or has some defect. Anyone doing this should be responsible for doing a set up on the horn as it arrives. So ideally they are a tech or have someone to do the work.

Higher up you have a slightly larger company that orders in quantity so they actually have stock to send out immediately. This type of company needs to decide whether to stick to one or two options, e.g. finishes, or they either have to order vast quantities of all the possible finishes or make it clear in the ad what is a production model ready to ship and what is available as a special order. This might be mail order or a single retail physical shop. Again they should be responsible for set up, repairs, return policy, plus insurance of stock etc.

Then you have the large distributors who act as a middle between the manufacturer and retailers.

They would not necessarily do the setting up, it's ideally done at the end of the chain once all the international plus national shipping has taken place.

People often think they are paying over the top due to the extra "middleman". This is not necessarily true. because they can order in vast quantities, they will often get a better discount direct from the factory than the small or medium sized companies can, so they can still remain competitive.

Or they can have their own factory or part of a factory or assembly plant.

So there are many many levels, but a similar model to many other industries.

 

Interesting.

 

Why do I get the idea that MARKETING plays a huge deal in which horns we THINK are better from Taiwan and which are not so good....

Maybe (likely) you get that feeling from reading this forum. It seem that (more in the past than now) a lot of people spread the rumor that the Taiwanese saxophones were all pretty much identical. There are many people now who have actually tried and checked many Taiwanese saxophones to prove this rumor wasn't correct. Some still believe it maybe. Most probably never really had a chance to seriously compare different Taiwanese saxophones, including checking the mechanics thoroughly.

Unfortunately I found that online reviews can tend to not be reliable. I have tried one instrument which had nothing but excellent reviews. I found it was below average at best, very disapointing. Maybe strange that I say that since I have a website with instrument reviews. They are maybe more meaningful when you know the person who is writing the review.

Generally my experience is the same as Pete's but just to add a few things. With some Taiwanese makers, importers can ask for specific features or even have the factory make something specifically for them. I imagine that for the right price, this can go all the way to a specific design of a saxophone body. So you can't really know without trying. Some instruments might even have the same brand name but be different (e.g. the importer changed a factory, the maker changed the model, etc. etc.).

As far as how they are different, I will use the three Taiwanese tenors I have here now as an example. Two are from the same company, the third is from a different company. The look of some of the keys is different and also the location of some keys (e.g. left pinky table size and position, shape of right pinky touchpieces, etc.). Spring design is different. All this contributes to a different feel of each tenor. The tone is significantly different on each tenor. Every player above basic beginner level could probably notice the different feel and tone. Several players have tried these ternos, all very high level players, and all felt the differences easily. The mechanical design of some parts, although similar ideas, vary enough to be significantly better on some than others (e.g. specific design of linkages). The condition of the saxophones varies considerably, which the cheapest one having more mechanical and adjustment problems from factory which are obviously from taking less time in manufacture.

I hope this helps.

 

It seem that (more in the past than now) a lot of people spread the rumor that the Taiwanese saxophones were all pretty much identical. There are many people now who have actually tried and checked many Taiwanese saxophone to prove this rumor wasn't correct. Some still believe it maybe.

I think they do, but in my experience this isn't just on this forum, however I agree with Nitai that it's probably spread by importers of some of the cheaper and less well made Taiwanese instruments, on account of the fact that some or all of the components look very similar indeed to the very good quality horns. I can't remember who it was now but somebody on some forum insisted all Taiwanese saxophones were the same because some airline pilot who goes there a lot told him.

I look forward to the day when people no longer say "Taiwanese saxophone" or "Chinese Saxophone" as if they are talking about a specific instrument as opposed to merely a country from which a whole vast range of instruments come from - good, bad and indifferent.

 

clarnibass: Yes that helps a lot! I was interested in the specifics of how the horns are different and you gave me some good information. I've not had a chance to inspect nor play a majority of the horns. The only three horns I had a chance to play side by side were the Mauriat, Cadeson and Cannonball horns...the Mauriat and Cadeson horns were AMAZINGLY similar...

So, I guess given what you wrote about there being many slight differences in the different Taiwanese horns, it's possible-for example- that I wouldn't like a Mauriat horn but LOVE a Jupiter...or Really love a Barone horn and really dislike a Rhueben Allen... The horns are simply that different...? Very interesting...

Thank you for your post...

R

 

So, I guess given what you wrote about there being many slight differences in the different Taiwanese horns, it's possible-for example- that I wouldn't like a Mauriat horn but LOVE a Jupiter...or Really love a Barone horn and really dislike a Rhueben Allen... The horns are simply that different...? Very interesting...

Yes, it's possible. It's also possible that they are not much different. It depends. Some Taiwanese makers are more established as a maker. Some Western importers are exactly that and it's possible they order the same models from the same maker as another importer. In that case they would be the same. But you can't know unless you know.

on account of the fact that some or all of the components look very similar indeed to the very good quality horns.

Using the three tenors I mentioned as an example, in spite of all the big differences, some of their parts are the same. I remember that 1 & 2 had the same parts, 1 & 3 too and 2 & 3 also, eventhough only two are from the same maker. I don't remember any identical looking part that all three had (except maybe the basic keys like the stacks, etc. which I don't remember). If I remember some parts like key guards, etc. are made by seperate factories. In that case they could look the same but would have no significance to the saxophone being the same or not.

 

Which are the best Taiwanese horns? I have heard of some good quality Chinese strings.

 

M'Lady from Randy Jones at Tenor Madness, Cannonball, P. Mauriat and Phil Barone, T.K Melody, Bauhaus Walstein. The prices are in the ballpark except the Barones, TK Melody and Bauhaus are lower in price. Prices start at about $900.00 for the Bauhaus and go up to $3990.00 for the Tenor Madness. Considering Selmers start at 5k, that ain't bad.

 

Obviously this subject has been done to death but what I have found personally after trying a couple dozen different Taiwanese sopranos, altos and tenors is that TW horns can and often do look the same which is typically because they are Selmer Paris SA80II and III or Yanigasawa copies but as discussed in detail before each brand can vary in its metallurgy, engineering properties, set-up, and of course marketing.

There are some very good (Antigua, Xarone and Jupiter) and some really great horns (Cannonball, T.K. Melody, P. Mauriat) that a player can knock the stuffing out of. It all depends on whether you choose to pay for the marketing hype, and take the time to try enough horns to find the horn that works for you personally.

Not all TW horns are the same.

B

 

I would also put a shout out for Maxtone (Special Order) made in taiwan. B

 

Thanks for all the posts...I have a much better idea of how all this works now...

 

What is a Xarone?

 

Can ANYONE get a deal with a factory there and get saxophones made?

Try one of these guys: http://webbbs.mingdao.edu.tw/~foo/www4/c5.htm

 

Now THAT is enlightening. My brain circuits just overloaded.

 

Most of the Taiwanese saxophones are produced by factories unknown to the public and are brought to the market under many more brands than there are factories , so, yes, certain factories will sell the same or very similar horns under different brandnames. But there are many factories and they produce quite differently, so not all Taiwanese horns are born the same.

Chinese factories do the same. Virtually anyone can buy saxophones from these factories, although, more often than not, they buy them from distributors or trading companies. Chinese makers and also the majority of Taiwanese makers would produce OEM (products produced under private labels) musical instruments , in fact, the production under private label is , up until now, the core business of the majority of the factories.

Laser engraving makes producing even limited amount of saxophones with a certain brand a very easy thing to do, some Taiwanese companies offer also the option of hand engraved logos or trade marks ......for an extra price

The lower Euro will probably help a bit some European horns but these are in another priceclass as the majority of the Taiwanese products.

 

Virtually anyone can buy saxophones from these factories, although, more often than not, they buy them from distributors or trading companies.

This is true.

Part of the reason I go to the trade fairs is that I'm interested in one day creating a brand and am on the lookout for a factory that could do what i want.

But I've learnt from people like Martin at Bauhaus Walstein (who I now know quite well as I've bought a couple of horns and visited his shop), that it is not as easy as it looks. To do it properly and professionally you need to be able to financially cover the hits you might take from offering a rock solid warrantee and return policy as well as holding an inventory so your customers don't have to wait for you to order in the product.

I will continue to go to the trade fairs and play test the Taiwanese/Chinese instruments and compare side by side to the Japanese, French, German, Swiss and Italian horns until I'm confident it can be done with a good business model which entails QC, marketing and enough profit to back it all up with great customer service.

If I ever offer a line of saxophones (and I really would like to), then it will be the best horn and the best value, but don't hold your breath waiting, just use it for long note practice.

 

I think it is really simple. The Taiwanese have got what it takes to make a saxophone. Obviously, as in any commercial manufacturing realm, there are some companies who make a stronger, more repeatable product than others. I think the brands that have "risen to the top" must be made in factories where R&D and manufacturing is kept under close scrutiny from beginning of construction to the end. All three of my Taiwanese "born" Saxes are of VERY HIGH QUALITY. The only thing my saxophones don't have that the Big 4 and other European manufacturers have is meticulously prim & proper finishing work. Of course this can be adjusted by a great tech in the future. This is also one reason why the prices are a bit lower.

I may not know much, but I do know when I play a quality musical instrument. These saxophones just make it a joyous event to play. The response of the horns is what really "blows me away."

I honestly believe some of these horns coming out of Taiwan are certainly among the best current production saxophones. If not the best...

 

I think the brands that have "risen to the top" must be made in factories where R&D and manufacturing is kept under close scrutiny…

Most of the real R&D was done by Selmer and Yanagisawa.

 

As a person that owns MANY Taiwanese horns, and have lived in Taiwan, here is my take on the issue.

1. Anyone, including Selmer(Bundy II for example) can put out junk. At best, if you get a Houli horn, the lower end of quality will only go so far. Even the lowest quality Taiwanese horn is a far cry better than the lowest quality Chinese horn.

2. Most of the people that review these horns have never played on them, nor ever owned them. Often the reviews you see are just from people playing into the hype. Of course, if you sell a brand, you are going to hype up the one you sell. Maybe even bash the others!

3. Who and what is the best is subjective. If you can play well on a horn, and it does not fall apart, then it is a good horn no matter where it comes from.

4. Marketing always makes a difference. I remember when this guy in California sold the T.V. Brick. Another sold the Pet Rock. If a person can sell stuff like that and make a killing, saxophones are that much easier. Especially if it looks good!

5. I personally think that the whole "Put my name on a horn" thing is turning into an epidemic. There are a lot of vendors who early on took the time to make sure they were putting out quality instruments that were well setup. Now, there are a lot of new players on the block riding the Taiwanese band wagon. Some are even selling Chinese horns, and trying to pass them off as Taiwanese.

I play on almost exclusively on Saxophone.com(Taiwanese) horns. Mainly because of the combination of the product, and the service I get from them. That is not to say they are the best, or the worse, but they at least work for me. I think in the end that is all that matters. I also think that integrity of the people selling horns is very underrated.

Just my views. Flame on!

Phineas

 

5. I personally think that the whole "Put my name on a horn" thing is turning into an epidemic. There are a lot of vendors who early on took the time to make sure they were putting out quality instruments that were well setup. Now, there are a lot of new players on the block riding the Taiwanese band wagon. Some are even selling Chinese horns, and trying to pass them off as Taiwanese.

Just my views. Flame on!

Phineas

No flames here! Your point #5 is part of why I think there is so much confusion and doubt about these horns. Everybody and their brother is slapping a name on a Taiwanese or Chinese horn and no one knows where they were made and what kind of quality they are getting. And to add fuel to the fire, even Yamaha and maybe others, from what I understand are outsourcing for their student, intermediate and even entry level pro models.

A Yamaha isn't even a Yamaha anymore.

Flame away!!!

 

yamaha has its own factories abroad, so, technically, they are not outsourcing

Keilwerth outsources some cheaper models, Selmer France build everything themselves, still, Yanagisawa , after building for decades for others builds everything by itself......

 

Been looking at a lot of different horns made in Taiwan--
Maxtone, Antigua, Amati…

Amati are made in Europe, no? The one I had was.

 

Yeah, I did a double take on that too in the OP, but things are changing so quickly…who knows anymore? That said, this is what's currently listed on Amati's website.

"All the band instruments are made in Amati - Denak, Kraslice [Karlovy Vary Region of Czech Republic], which has been a long-lived tradition. The historical beginning of production dates back to the 18th century. The production volume puts us among one of the three biggest musical instrument manufacturers in Europe."

So I think they're still a Czech-made saxophone. :scratch:

 

I had a top of the line Amati recently and it certainly did not seem to be Taiwanese. Maybe their student lines are made there.

 

I had a top of the line Amati recently and it certainly did not seem to be Taiwanese. ...

Meaning?? Is there a modern-day standard stereotype of Taiwanese-made instruments?

 

I also have an RS Berkeley Virtuoso sax that plays great. It is made in Taiwan. I am amazed at how well it plays. I'm not ready to sell my Selmer SBA but this Virtuosos plays the most in tune of any modern sax I have played and has a great tone. I've been wondering if and what the differences are between it and the other Taiwanese saxophones.

 

I was under the impression the RS Berkeley Virtuoso's were copies of the Mk VI Bore, neck and keywork with a few keywork improvements. Wasn't that their target ?
Most Taiwan horns seems to be based off the Super Action 80 series.

 

AFAIK Amati saxophones are made in Czeck Republic.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was wondering about the differences in Taiwanese horns...There are SO many...and now that I know that some of them aren't even Taiwanese horns--I'm much more confused about horns--Whether they are ROC, Taiwan, Vietnam, Czech etc...Someone should make a website with info on ALL the Taiwanese saxophone manufacturers similar to Theo Wanne's Mouthpiece history museum or whatever it's called...But it would have to be made by someone who is very respected in doing such research...

BTW,

The bonade book on accoustics is the same guy that designed the ligature? Those are great ligatures! but I've seen different spellings of that...like
Benade etc...which is correct?

 

The bonade book on accoustics is the same guy that designed the ligature? Those are great ligatures! but I've seen different spellings of that...like
Benade etc...which is correct?

I think you must mean the Benade book, not Bonade.

 

Thanks Pete I thought they might be the same person...Don Sinta, Prof of Sax at Univ of Michigan used to tell his students to read the Benade book...
Unfortunately, I never got around to it...

 

Amati student horns come from Taiwan. The intermediate and pro models are made in Kraslice, Czech Republic.

(FYI -- It's KRAZ-leets-ay, not KRAS-lice)

 

Děkujeme vám za vaši pomoc.
(Thank you for your help.):bluewink:

 

Moje Slovenská lepší než moje České, ale oni jsou dost blízko, no lidé pochopili mě.

(I speak better Slovak than Czech, but they still understand me) "Robko" is what my Slovak friends call me.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=cC...iUCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false