If King made the Super 20 today, in the US, with US labor, it would cost at least $10,000 for a tenor.

 

Is the labor wage in the U.S. truly that much more than in France? I believe that with some modern updating of processes it would be possible to make reasonably priced versions of some of the classics.

Selmer USA makes their 100 line of horns here - not that I really like them all that much but they are on the higher end of horns being made in the U.S.

 

Is the labor wage in the U.S. truly that much more than in France?

Good point. They're certainly not more than here and Keilwerth is a worthy (sorry couldnt resist) product.

Anyone who's really interested might want to take a look at the American trumpet industry. Some really great ones are made there at competitive worldwide prices.

 

I would add that we also lack the kind of skilled labor we had in those days. Most of those old companies were centralized around a geographical area (specifically Elkhart Indiana) where generations of craftsmen trained under one another and passed on their craft very much in the way of the old guild system. Those horns were made by men who often worked the same factory for 20 or 30 years. They could do it with their eyes shut and knew every aspect of their craft.

In our day and culture labor is transient, people change jobs and careers like underwear. It is not conducive to the type of attention to detail and knowledge necessary to create such instruments. Additionally, it lend itself to attending to stock prices and demanding investors who want to pinch every penny in order to keep their company alive via the judgement of the stock market.

Im no economic expert but I would venture to guess that it would not be easy to sell the idea of making the BEST to potential investors....what they would like to see is numbers on a page that suggest Marketability and effiency....not what we as musicians would like to see. The economy and the arts frequently work at cross purposes for better or worse.

 

people change jobs and careers like underwear

In no small part because management often views their workers on about the same plane as underwear...

 

It is not physically possible to make those horns exactly as before; even Selmer would not be able to exactly reproduce a Mk VI. There are many reasons for this, some of which have been touched on here. The craftsmanship is lost, and the expense of making horns the old way, even if possible, would be prohibitive. For example, would you pay $10,000 for a replica Super 20 or Mk VI when they probably would not hold that value? The manufacturers think not, and they're probably right. You either have to find a vintage horn you like or get used to the new breed. Personally, I think the best new horns are getting very good, and I use a Taiwan soprano by choice. We may be on the cusp of another 'golden age' of saxophones as modern technology makes it possible to create a new design and get it on the market in small quantities without a huge investment (like the Steve Goodson Unison and various Selmer Paris models, Selmer having multiple Paris models at the same time for the first time in history). The vintage American and French saxes will always have value, and I doubt if any technology will be able to reproduce their sounds, but I think that with time we as a culture will adapt to to the new horns.

 

If King made the Super 20 today, in the US, with US labor, it would cost at least $10,000 for a tenor.

In Germany,where Keilwerth SX-series are made,the labor wage is one of the highest in the world;in France (Selmer France) it is slightly less,I believe.

Since these horns would probably be made with modern machinery,I don't think finding skilled people to do the finishing work would be an impossible task.

 

The guitar industry is doing this. Manufacturers like Martin, Gibson, and Fender are able to make excellent reproductions of their vintage instruments in the USA. And they can sell them successfully.

Fender offers their vintage reproductions in three finish types: like new, moderately worn, and very worn. Imagine being able to be buy a Buescher 400 Top Hat and Cane, made in America, with 50 years of lacquer wear and scratches already built in.

I think that there are several reasons why the guitar industry can do this more easily than the saxophone industry:

1. There are a lot more guitars sold today in the USA than saxophones. So even though the reproductions are a low percentage of the total sales volume, they still sell in respectible numbers.

2. The guitar manufacturers have been making their products continuously since the days of their vintage models. They don't have to start a new business and staff it from scratch. In fact, some of the people who work on the vintage instruments are the same ones who worked on the originals. How many Conn, King, Martin, or Buescher employees are around today and ready to go back to work. Or even to teach young workers how to do the jobs they did?

3. Most of the guitar builders are guitar lovers, and vice versa, a lot of guitar lovers become guitar builders. How many of us who love vintage saxes dream about building them? I would suspect that there aren't enough to put one brand back into business.

 

I think the problem is that because the industry knows, regardless of what country they are set up in, the average symphony player will take out a second mortgage to buy a twenty thousand dollar wind instrument those are the people to cater to. Why place a 10,000 dollar sax on the market when so few would pay it because there are still 300,000 mark vi's et al out there that people can get for half to a third of that.

 

Potential Sax Maker: "I want to build new copies of the classic American saxophones."

Venture Capitalist: "Will this require expensive tooling?"

SM: "Yes."

VC: "But after you buy this tooling, the saxophones will be inexpensive to produce?"

SM: "No, there will be quite a bit of skilled hand work."

VC: "How large is the potential market?"

SM: "10,000, maybe 30,000 players worldwide."

VC: "Is there any competition in high quality saxophones?"

SM: "There are four large companies recognized as manufacturers of top-quality saxophones and several smaller companies. And there are thousands of the original classic saxophones still available in good playing condition. They hardly wear out if well cared for."

VC: "Goodbye. Please forget my name and telephone number."

 

Very likely,retread.

But still,I see no major difference in producing high-end modern saxes,like Keilwerth and producing a copy of what has already been done before.I'm sure that it will happen sooner or later anyway since Conn and Selmer have already taken that direction.

The question is if the companies are able to produce instruments that are as great as they used to be.If they fail and get a bad rep,the costs would be enormous so it would be a big risk.
Another possibility is that these copies would be made in Asia to lower the manufacturing costs.Altough not vintage copies,Unison is doing this with the SG model and John Lehner is doing this with his line of saxophones.I see no reason why vintage copies could not be manufactured in Asia,too; the craftmanship has improved enormously in recent years there.

 

Marketing nightmares aside, the fact is that the quality and type of brass changes in different eras. Cannonball uses a certain high quality brass found in Tawain. Selmer uses brass with a higher copper content. The type of brass that CONN/King/Buescher/Martin used may be as extinct as the dinosaur. Personally I don't see how reproducing the great saxophones would cost upwards of $10,000 per horn. After all the physical differences between the vintage American and current pro horns are subtle. Why would it cost so much to recreate a type of saxophone that has already been made? After all, King manufactured an extremely limited number of the Super 21 which was almost identical to the, you guessed it, Super 20 just a few years ago. The reason why these horns are not made anymore is because the manufacturing techniques and materials available have changed. The current big guns in the saxophone world are doing a terrific job at creating a new generation of "Legendary Horns". Wait another 25 years or so, and people will be talking how great the Selmer Reference or Yamaha Custom horns are. Though I will say this...there is just some mystique about an old American horn. Ok so my opinion may be biased as I am very patriotic.

 

it is all ashame, part of the reason our gross national product is not as good as it should be. all the factory jobs, not just for saxophones, but for most of the goods we buy, have gone overseas, due to cheaper labor and manufacturing, and as the other posters on this board have said, what it would cost today to re-tool and manufacture the same horns of yesteryear. selmer usa is the only leader left who produces a pro level horn that is the least used by pros and seems to be the least recognized, yet it is a nice horn(i use one and get rave reviews on it). the preferences have gone to selmer paris, yamaha, then yani, and keilwerth, and that is where the demand is today, combined with successful marketing, followed by the mass production of taiwanese horns. in today's marketing and sales, american companies are finding it more cost effective to import an inferior product from taiwan, mass produced, slap their own name on it, throw a lower price on it, and roll it out the door, rather than absorb the much higher costs associated with producing a more superior product on their own and absorbing the losses of doing so. it is sad, but most businesses don't have the luxury or the resources for self-manufacturing anymore due to the costs, due to the economics involved. this in turn, creates more imports coming in, less domestic manufacturing, thus less saxophones being exported from the united states, as with other products, and a lower gnp that we wish we had. however, the companies are saving a lot of money in doing so. it is ashame what has happened to american manufacturing, not just in saxophones, but all around. when you buy anything anymore, look at where it is made, and ten years ago, you bet it was made here.

 

Hodges1 -You're right about the exporting of American manufacturing but you gotta go back more than 10 years; more like around 20 years to the Reagan administration when it really got out of hand.

It used to be that the imported stuff was occupying only the extremely (low end quality) market. American manufacturing was still making the nicer quality items and left the low end stuff to the exports. Around 40 years ago "MADE IN JAPAN" was only found on the cheap stuff. China has taken this role now.

Now the (high end) or real quality stuff is made in Japan and bought with a little pride. Topsy turvy world isn't it? When was the last time you saw any electronics made in the USA? I think Zenith was the last stronghold. Mike

 

It seems today that the United States prides itself on being the holder of cutting edge technology. Computers and computer technology are what run this country now. I would personally like to see more "quality" manufacturing in the US, but as stated before, American labor is simply too high. America may not be the "Great Manufacturer" anymore, but our influence and technology make it possible for other countries to create quality products. We are the example, and thanks to our liberties and freedoms , we still have many of the greatest minds in the world. Many of todays products are still designed in the US, they are just made overseas to be more cost effective.

 

all the factory jobs, not just for saxophones, but for most of the goods we buy, have gone overseas, due to cheaper labor and manufacturing

This is, of course, to some extent true, or at least it's the reasoning that most of us agree with. The problem with this argument is that high quality, reasonably affordable horns are being made in Japan, Germany, Italy and France. These are not low wage economies so how do they do it, and how come the US can't? I think the answer is more complex than the cheap labour argument and I suspect part of it is that bigger, easier and faster profits can be made by buying in.

 

most of what happened was a matter of economics and consolidation that frequently happens in industries as the move from cottage to individual centers of manufacturing to a consolidation into a small number of players...

Look at what happened to the auto biz from early 1900s to to day, and it's still continuing.

In the late 1980s, there were supposedly around 500 manufactures of PCs around, now there's just a handful.

Progress; ain't it great ?

 

Chaps, interesting discussion, but incredibly americocentric. "Our influence and technology Make it possible for other countries to make quality products". Wow, Thats pretty rich!!
Without stirring things up too much can I remind you that saxophones were conceived, designed, patented and made in Europe so very long before American companies came to the party. And the guys that started making them, are still making them, with smaller markets, and the same expensive workforce, and without any American technology.
I think we see in some of the most recent posts just an inkling of why there is such an increasingly 'anti-American' world out there.
Sorry if my comments offend anyone, but as a non american I am just trying to point out that this sort of discussion could be perceived as fairly offensive, if only for what is not said, nor recognized, and the apparent underlying assumptions. I'm sure no one means offence, and I am not personally offended, rather just amused. Now I will take deep cover. Regards all.

 

No offense taken on my part. Well said Ian. Sometimes we Americans can be just down right obnoxious. Especially (not to open another can of worms) the Republican variety. Mike

 

Oh it's on now M Exner. j/k But seriously though, ever saxophonist I know (even the famous ones) have been more conservative minded.

 

every* Sorry, us republicans are not known for our great spelling. P O T A T ahhh forget it.

 

Chaps, interesting discussion, but incredibly americocentric. "Our influence and technology Make it possible for other countries to make quality products". Wow, Thats pretty rich!!
Without stirring things up too much can I remind you that saxophones were conceived, designed, patented and made in Europe so very long before American companies came to the party. And the guys that started making them, are still making them, with smaller markets, and the same expensive workforce, and without any American technology.
I think we see in some of the most recent posts just an inkling of why there is such an increasingly 'anti-American' world out there.
Sorry if my comments offend anyone, but as a non american I am just trying to point out that this sort of discussion could be perceived as fairly offensive, if only for what is not said, nor recognized, and the apparent underlying assumptions. I'm sure no one means offence, and I am not personally offended, rather just amused. Now I will take deep cover. Regards all.

No problem.

The issue isn't technological. It's economical. One of the problems with prosperity in a global economy is that a higher standard of living drives up the living wage, and therefore labor costs, among other things. Outsourcing, offshoring, etc are a natural tendency. the American Dollar has been quite strong in value these last few years, and this increases the purchasing power of any persons holding a dollar. Yet it also makes US exports more expensive in relation to other nations who's currency hasn't been keeping pace with the Dollar. As demand for offshore goods goes up due to low prices, demand for the competing domestic goods goes down.

 

I must admit I understand very little if anything about economics, and like most of you cannot quite find the answers to most of the questions raised. I suspect many economists also struggle to understand most of economics, given the state of my retirement funds. Glad I didn't offend anyone above.
Yes, I reall enjoy old American saxophones, and must go now because my six year old insists that tonight it has to be MacDonalds....
Its the way things are...

 

Good quality horns will be made here in the U S on a large scale when big bands come back.

How long have we been waiting for that?