Bands with brass instruments tune to an "open" note - no valves down, trombones in first position which happens to be concert Bb.

 

Just curious...what do all of you out there use for a tuning note?

I use concert Ab on Eb saxes & concert Eb on Bb saxes.

 

Just curious...what do all of you out there use for a tuning note?

I use concert Ab on Eb saxes & concert Eb on Bb saxes.

I prefer the same myself, though I usually get stuck tuning to an A with large ensembles.

Here at school, the bands and orchestras actually use an F concert from the principal clarinet to tune the brass, then an A from the oboe to tune the woodwinds and strings (where applicable).

 

Just curious...what do all of you out there use for a tuning note?

I use concert Ab on Eb saxes & concert Eb on Bb saxes.

That partial in the overtone series can be sharp. Be careful about adjusting the mouthpiece too much. The rest of the horn might play flat.

I have my altos play low G, high G, then sustain high F#.

 

The "A" is an open string, no fingers down.
Bb is an open position, no fingers down/slide up on tbones, for brass.

 

Wasn't there originally some reason to tune to the oboe - i.e. everyone adjusted up or down to match them?

 

Wasn't there originally some reason to tune to the oboe - i.e. everyone adjusted up or down to match them?

Yes. Because oboe players are the craziest mofo's in the valley and if they had to tune to someone else, they couldn't live with the rejection.

 

Don't, I'm surrounded by the blighters at work...

 

Larry Teal (Art of Saxophone Playing) mentions a study in which he measured the "intonation tendencies" of saxophonists, either professional or advanced students, using 26 alto and 17 tenor saxes of various makes. From this he produced a chart showing which notes players tended to play in tune or out of tune and by how much (measured in cents sharp or flat).

Based on these results, he suggests that upper F# be used as the tuning note for altos, low B (not the low low one) for tenors. (That is, concert A)

According to him, concert notes A and Bb would be like:

alto tenor
lower/upper lower/upper
Concert A (alto F#, tenor B) -3/0 0/+7
Concert Bb (alto G, tenor C) -4/+3 +6/+19

Whether this is relevant or not, I haven't a clue.

 

I use concert Ab on Eb saxes & concert Eb on Bb saxes.

You need to be careful about this. Instruments are designed to be tuned to A=440. The concept is that adjusting your mouthpiece position to match this tuning will yeild the best intonation for the instrument's design.
Tuning to Bb is close enough that there shouldn't be any noticeable problems.
This gets the tuning most correct in the middle register of your horn thereby creating a referrence point for intonation adjustments in the upper and lower registers.

Tuning to Ab on alto may not be any worse than tuning to Bb. They're both only 1/2 step away from A. But tuning tenor to Eb places the center of your tuning a tritone off referrence pitch! You're a full 1/2 octave away from where you should be. This does not sound like a good idea to me.

 

Instruments are designed to be tuned to A=440. The concept is that adjusting your mouthpiece position to match this tuning will yeild the best intonation for the instrument's design.

While right, I'm not entirely sure this is relevant.

"A=440" just refers to the tuning standard, as opposed to A=442, or A=457, or any of the other crazy tuning standards that orchestras have used in the past. It would be just as accurate to say that most modern orchestras tune to E=660 or F=349.228. That's just saying that when they play 660 Hz, they call that an E, whereas a period-specific baroque orchestra wouldn't.

Beyond that, there are many instruments which simply cannot be tuned (or meant to be tuned) to exactly 440 Hz - like the tuba, or the piccolo.

Instead, instruments are just designed so that their tone holes/valves/whatever line up with the ratios needed for the A=440 scale. Indeed, woodwind makers may actually use A's for their tuning modifications, but "A" and "A=440" are two different things.

 

Lawnmowers tune to oboes too....this may or may not be relevant.

 

In my experience (which has mostly been high-school oriented), we've always tuned to concert Bb.

But for the first time in my life, we tuned to concert F in District jazz (I knew the note as soon as I heard it so it was no problem for transposing). I guess that's a good note to go to; mid-range tuning for most. I started on low range, mid range, then high range (these were all G for my tenor so the altissimo G freaked some people out :lol: ).

 

Sorry. I tried to do a table in my post above but didn't know all the headings would line up on the left instead of where they should be.

In my country, we're taught the devil is especially busy in Lent. So I wasn't surprised at the migraine headache this a.m. just when I was away from home doing a job, the bottle that fell out when I opened my daughter's fridge and shattered all over the place, the truck and bus which collided on a narrow road causing me a long detour...
But I'm a little upset that Satan would stoop to messing up my post. I mean, is he into computers too??

I'm not playing any sax tonight.
Again, sorry.

 

I like written F (as Tmadness says) which is concert Ab or Eb depending on the horn. I find it is the easiest to work out from when adjusting other notes. Using Written G or C (Bb concert) tends to be influenced by stack openings whereas F is not as critical. Now on a horn that has some really bad note(s), like maybe a flat middle C or C#, I would probably tune them and work all others down. I have trouble bringing a pitch up and find working the others down is easier.
Remember that any horn can be slightly adjusted by opening or closing keys just below the note and if RH notes are stuffy or flat, Eb can be held open like on flute. Stuffy A can benefit by holding open the G#, etc.

 

RickBusarow posted:"Originally Posted by Riff
Instruments are designed to be tuned to A=440. The concept is that adjusting your mouthpiece position to match this tuning will yeild the best intonation for the instrument's design."

While right, I'm not entirely sure this is relevant.

If its right how can it not be relevant?

A=440" just refers to the tuning standard, as opposed to A=442, or A=457, or any of the other crazy tuning standards that orchestras have used in the past.

Previous tuning standards need to be viewed in their historical context. They have never been arbitrary.
There is a reason for our tuning standard and that is simply that instrument manufactures need to know what pitch to design their instruments to.

It would be just as accurate to say that most modern orchestras tune to E=660 or F=349.228. That's just saying that when they play 660 Hz, they call that an E, whereas a period-specific baroque orchestra wouldn't

This is totally absurd. Orchestras tune to the referrence pitch that their instruments are designed for. In the US that's 440, in Europe 442. I bet if you were to buy a new sax you'd want one made to 440. Period specific baroque instruments were made prior to the adoption of the tempered tuning system and are not germain to this discussion.

Beyond that, there are many instruments which simply cannot be tuned (or meant to be tuned) to exactly 440 Hz - like the tuba, or the piccolo.

Hogwash. Orchestras tune their tubas and piccolos to 440.

Instead, instruments are just designed so that their tone holes/valves/whatever line up with the ratios needed for the A=440 scale.

That's why 440 is the tuning standard.

Indeed, woodwind makers may actually use A's for their tuning modifications, but "A" and "A=440" are two different things.

No, they're not!

I suggest you do more research on the subject before you post such uninformed opinions.

 

Why do orchestras tune to A concert, while bands tune to Bb concert?

Simple: because there are more Bb instruments in a wind band than any other. Don't read anything more into it.

 

In my country, we're taught the devil is especially busy in Lent. So I wasn't surprised at the migraine headache this a.m. just when I was away from home doing a job, the bottle that fell out when I opened my daughter's fridge and shattered all over the place, the truck and bus which collided on a narrow road causing me a long detour...

So that's why I have a headache this morning!!

And here I was blaming the beer, the devil is a much better scapegoat.

 

Maybe someone hasn't had his coffee yet? I don't think this type of response was totally called for...

If its right how can it not be relevant?

Well, let me give an example. "George Washington was the first president of the United States" is a true statement, but it isn't relevant to the discussion at hand. The rest of my post was an explanation of why your argument about 440 Hz doesn't necessitate the use of A. I will now reiterate it somewhat.

Previous tuning standards need to be viewed in their historical context. They have never been arbitrary.

I didn't say that they were arbitrary. "Any of the other crazy tuning..." was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Orchestras started with low standards because of the structural limitations of string instruments. Those standards gradually increased as orchestras looked for a brighter sound, then the increase stopped again until string instrument design caught up, and it gradually increased up to the days of "high pitch," until it came back down again.

There is a reason for our tuning standard and that is simply that instrument manufactures need to know what pitch to design their instruments to.

Indeed. They base their scale on the standard of A=440.

This is totally absurd. Orchestras tune to the referrence pitch that their instruments are designed for. In the US that's 440, in Europe 442. Period specific baroque instruments were made prior to the adoption of the tempered tuning system and are not germain to this discussion.

Orchestras tune to open strings. I'd wager it's because A is an open string that "A=" has been adopted for the tuning standard.

When an instrument with perfect intonation (say, an electric keyboard) is pitched to A=440, then the E above that will be 660 Hz (in equal temperament). So when we're told that an A=440, we can derive the frequencies of every other pitch with a bit of math (or a lot of math). So A=440 becomes a name for an entire (quite large) set of pitches.

You can also see this with chromatic tuners which allow you to choose between pitch standards. Calibrating it to A=440 doesn't just lock you into one pitch of A. Rather, it will recognize multiple octaves of A, and multiple octaves of every other diatonic pitch. This is because "A=440" is a measurement and the name for a set of pitches - not a pitch. "440 Hz" is a pitch. When a tuning standard has been assumed, then "A" becomes a pitch. But "A=440" isn't.

A baroque orchestra would be an example of an orchestra which wouldn't consider 660 Hz, and that they wouldn't consider it is indeed quite relevant. If you prefer, I could say that an orchestra tuning to A=442 wouldn't consider 660 Hz to be an (in-tune) E.

Hogwash. Orchestras tune their tubas and piccolos to 440.

No, they really don't. The "A" in "A=440" refers to the A above middle C on a piano - that pitch and that pitch alone. Piccolos can't play that low. While it's possible for a strong tubist to play that high, they wouldn't tune to that pitch any more than a trumpet player would use B two octaves above the staff as his tuning note.

When tuning to A, there are obviously many octaves involved. Again, this should demonstrate how "A=440" is simply the name for a set of pitches (including the A at 220, the A at 110, and the A at 880).

Instead, instruments are just designed so that their tone holes/valves/whatever line up with the ratios needed for the A=440 scale.

That's why 440 is the tuning standard.

No kidding... Though technically, A=440's being the tuning standard is causally prior to modern (say, 1939 and later) instruments' being designed that way. For instance, the Yamaha 82Z is based on A=440 because that's the standard - not the other way around.

Indeed, woodwind makers may actually use A's for their tuning modifications, but "A" and "A=440" are two different things.

No, they're not!

For the sake of clarity:

"A=440 Hz" is a measurement. "A" refers to a pitch, after a tuning standard has been assumed - but that tuning standard needn't be 440 Hz.

You could also look at it this way: I'm about 6ft 3.5in, so you could say that in terms of height, Rick = 6ft 3.5in. But clearly "Rick = 6ft 3.5in" is not a substitute for "Rick." They're two different things.

Orchestras tune to A, or you could say that they tune to an oboe playing 440 Hz (ideally), but the oboe cannot play "A=440 Hz".

Again, it could very well be that woodwind makers play an A concert when they want to get a feel for the intonation tendencies of a horn. But if they do, it will be by virtue of the A's prominence as an orchestral tuning note - not because "A" is used in the definition for a series of pitches. And since the instruments getting tuned do actually get have their intonation tendencies adjusted, while A may be the best tuning note to start out with, even in those cases, it isn't necessarily the best tuning note after all adjustments are said and done.

So what's the best tuning note? The one which, when perfect, has all other pitches closer to perfect than if any other pitch on the horn was used. In my experience that's usually a written F.

 

The rest of my post was an explanation of why your argument about 440 Hz doesn't necessitate the use of A. I will now reiterate it somewhat.

More nonsense. The fact that 440Hz is the standard frequency for A above middle C means that for musical purposes 440Hz IS A.
Your arguement that 440 Hz is somehow separate from the pitch it produces is foolish.

Orchestras started with low standards because of the structural limitations of string instruments. Those standards gradually increased as orchestras looked for a brighter sound, then the increase stopped again until string instrument design caught up, and it gradually increased up to the days of "high pitch," until it came back down again.

Quite the opposite is true. One of the reasons (among many others) that A=457 was dropped is that tuning stringed instruments to this pitch created too much tension across the instrument and it approached the structural limitations of the instruments. To make the instruments stronger would have resulted in resonance problems in the instrument designs which in turn would have affected timbre.
The fact that A=440 is out of the range of piccolos and tubas is irrelevent. They tune either an octave above or below but they are still referrencing their tuning to 440Hz.

So A=440 becomes a name for an entire (quite large) set of pitches.

Baloney. A=440 refers to one pitch only. No one ever refers to the full range of musical pitches as 440. You're really strectching here.

Your entire post is just talking out of your hat.

 

If A=440, then the C Major scale it's in should look something like:

C 264, D 297, E 330, F 352, G 396, A 440, B 495, C 528

So if A happens to be a slightly off-pitch note on your instrument, what is the problem with tuning your G to 396Hz if your G is more centered, since the other notes are relative to A=440?

Does tuning to A=440 really imply that the instrument manufacturer was focusing on that specific note in respect to tuning, or that they attempted to make the entire range come as close as possible? The former sounds unlikely, given the varied intonation peculiarities of so many different instruments.

Edit: I just pasted those frequencies from a random site I Googled. If they're off please don't nitpick them unless it's relevant.

 

OK, I looked it up, and those frequencies are indeed incorrect and would be the Just Scale version of C Major, and each frequency would be different for each scale.

But the 12-tone equal tempered scale we use has absolute values for each note, so an instrument ought to be able to tune to any note, relative to A=440, provided the note they're using is appropriately 'centered' for the tuning of that instrument, yes?

http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html
http://www.yuvalnov.org/temperament/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

 

an instrument ought to be able to tune to any note, relative to A=440, provided the note they're using is appropriately 'centered' for the tuning of that instrument, yes?

No. That's not the way instruments are designed. When a wind instrument is pitched to 440 you're dealing with a "pipe" that can only produce the natural harmonic series of it's fundamental pitch. In other words, its intonation will produce overtones from the "just tuning system". Since we use a tempered tuning system tone holes have to be moved about to acheive the best intonation for every tone in the chromatic scale. This results in numerous compromises in intonation. That's why your G# is flat and middle D is sharp. If you were to tune your instrument to one of these notes your entire scale would be out of tune. Whether you're talking a few cents off or 50 cents off is irrelevant, you're still out of tune. This is why wind instrument players are always adjusting for intonation with their embouchure and why brass instruments also have tuning slides.

Even acoustic pianos are intentionally "detuned" with a system called stretch tuning. The upper registers are intentionally tuned sharp and the lower flat. So when tuning to a piano you should use A above middle C because that octave is in tune. (Actually the two octaves surrounding middle C are in tune. The others are stretched as mentioned above.)

 

Riff, what's your problem? Aside from your being flat-out wrong, why are you being so hostile?

More nonsense. The fact that 440Hz is the standard frequency for A above middle C means that for musical purposes 440Hz IS A.
Your arguement that 440 Hz is somehow separate from the pitch it produces is foolish.

I'm not arguing that 440 Hz is different from A (when A=440 Hz). In fact, I wrote the exact opposite: "Orchestras tune to A, or you could say that they tune to an oboe playing 440 Hz (ideally)..." What I have written many times, as clearly as can be, is that "...the oboe cannot play 'A=440 Hz'." I can play an "A" at 440 Hz, but you cannot play the pitch "A=440 Hz" - because that is not a pitch. It is a statement.

Quite the opposite is true. One of the reasons (among many others) that A=457 was dropped is that tuning stringed instruments to this pitch created too much tension across the instrument and it approached the structural limitations of the instruments. To make the instruments stronger would have resulted in resonance problems in the instrument designs which in turn would have affected timbre.

Baroque orchestras had standards as low as A=395 Hz. Modern baroque orchestras tune to A=415 Hz. Part of the reason they were so low that string instruments were still using gut strings. So as the technology improved (like steel strings), pitches were able to rise. Your reason for backing down from A=457 Hz makes sense - but I didn't make any claims about why they backed down from A=457 Hz. I proposed a reason for coming up from A=395 Hz and all the other pitches they used (since there simply wasn't a standard then), and gave a cursory explanation of how it was possible.

The fact that A=440 is out of the range of piccolos and tubas is irrelevent. They tune either an octave above or below but they are still referrencing their tuning to 440Hz.

But your argument falls apart if they're referencing their tuning to 440 Hz. You argue that we should tune to "A=440 Hz" (which you think is A) because instruments are designed that way. But clearly, 880 Hz and 440 Hz are two completely different pitches. If you believe that an A at 880 Hz is an okay tuning note because it references an A at 440 Hz, you are saying that 880 Hz is okay because it falls within the set of pitches implied by "A=440 Hz" (even though you also say that "A=440 Hz" is one pitch only).

Now, if you believe that 880 Hz is okay because it references A=440 Hz, then the same can (and must) be said about the E at 660 Hz, or TMadness's proposed tuning note at 415 Hz (an Ab). These pitches "reference" the A at 440 Hz just as well as the octave intervals do.

Baloney. A=440 refers to one pitch only. No one ever refers to the full range of musical pitches as 440.

I haven't suggested that anyone does this. I wrote that "A=440" becomes a name for an entire set of pitches - not "the entire set of pitches." When A=440 Hz, A1=27.50 Hz, A#1=29.14 Hz, B1=30.87 Hz, C1=32.70 Hz, C#1=34.65 Hz, D1=36.71 Hz, etc. When you say "'A' is equal to 440 Hz," you are indeed mentioning only one pitch, but from that one statement (it's not a pitch - it's a statement involving a pitch) you are necessarily stating the parameters for all other diatonic pitches.

Think of "A=440 Hz" as a key, like "G major." "G major" doesn't just mean G. G major = {G, A, B, C, D, E, F#}, based on the formula WWHWWWH. "A=440 Hz" is the same deal, only with a larger set and a much more complicated formula - and the subject/predicate syntax is reversed, since "440 Hz" is the constant, and "A" what gives it its context, as opposed to "G' being the constant and "major" being what gives it its context.

No. That's not the way instruments are designed. When a wind instrument is pitched to 440 you're dealing with a "pipe" that can only produce the natural harmonic series of it's fundamental pitch. In other words, its intonation will produce overtones from the "just tuning system". Since we use a tempered tuning system tone holes have to be moved about to acheive the best intonation for every tone in the chromatic scale. This results in numerous compromises in intonation. That's why your G# is flat and middle D is sharp. If you were to tune your instrument to one of these notes your entire scale would be out of tune. Whether you're talking a few cents off or 50 cents off is irrelevant, you're still out of tune. This is why wind instrument players are always adjusting for intonation with their embouchure and why brass instruments also have tuning slides.

None of this gives an explanation of why his suggestion is wrong. Actually, he's right.

Woodwinds are effectively not "a" pipe. Actually, valved brass instruments aren't "a" pipe either. Tone holes and valves exist so that a single instrument can simulate many "pipes." And this is the case for every valved/holed wind instrument - not just ones meant to be played in the realm of A=440 Hz. Beyond that, I'm not sure how you believe that this single-piped instrument could be pitched to "A=440 Hz," which you believe to be a single pitch. A modern keyless (or fully closed) alto, for example, would play the Db below middle C, at 138.59 Hz. That A at 440 Hz isn't even in the overtone series.

 

RickBusarow -- your posts are very educating, thanks! (as opposed to other posters here who seem to confuse knowledge with big egos )