Either way.

 

Yeah, what Gary said.

If the rhythm section goes with you thats fine. If they don't that's fine too because what you end up doing is playing a V7alt chord. (bII7 and V7alt are the same thing.) The thing that you have to make sure you do on the bII7 is play a #11.

Have fun!!

 

Stevens' First Law of Jazz Improvisation:

If it sounds right, it's right.

 

I prefer to play it against (over) the V7. I think it gives more color to it.

 

Another way to think about this is to play a normal ii-v lick over the ii and play another ii-v lick over the v, but up a half step from the V7.
Example:
D- G7 C maj can be

D-G7 Ab-Db7 Cmaj

 

Just a little note about the tritone sub. I believe the origin of the b5 substitute is in classical music.

It's basically an inverted V7, with the 5th flattened and dropped down to become the root.

E.g, you take a G7 and flatten the D you get G B Db F

Drop the Db down and your left with Db G B F (Db7 b5)

This is how it originated but as you know in jazz its not necessary to flatten the 5.

 

There are different ways to substitute the V7. One of the ways is by going like so:

D-7 | C#7 | Cmaj7 | % |

...which descends chromatically, resolving to C.

Or you can sub the V7 by going up by a tritone from the I chord:

D-7 | F#7 | Cmaj7 | % |

F# is three whole tones (one tritone) away from the resolving chord, C. It is also closely related to C#7 in sound. They are diatonic chords I suppose. It works just fine.

There are other ways to substitute, but these are the basic ones. The first one is used a lot in jazz nowadays. It gives the progression an interesting color. Some pianists nowadays play it that way automatically, though they can play the V7 if you want them to.

Best thing to do is just sit down at a piano and experiment. If you think it sounds good, use it. But no matter what you do, always refer back to the basic sequence:

D-7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | % |

And keep resolution in mind.

Lately, I have been experimenting with altered chords. For example:

D-7 | C#7(#9) G7sus4 | C6 | % |

D-7 | Abmaj7(#5) Emaj7 | Cmaj7 | % |

G7(#11) | C#7 | Cmaj7 | % |

C#-7 | D-7(b5) G7(b9) | Cmaj7 | % |

It all depends on the context. If I dig the sound and mood it creates with the melody that is given (or if I am writing my own composition, the melody that is being written) then I'll use it. I love the sharp 5th and sharp 9th sound. The sharp 9th is a classic sound. Listen to the tune "Ceora" from Lee Morgan's album Cornbread. The lead sheets that you find now usually have the altered chords flatted, not sharped. Herbie always sharped the 9th chords. And in the last example, I delay the ii chord (D-7) by using the ii a half step below the expected chord (C#-). It adds a lot of tension, and depending when you are using it, you may not want to sit on it too long.

 

Or you can sub the V7 by going up by a tritone from the I chord:

D-7 | F#7 | Cmaj7 | % |

F# is three whole tones (one tritone) away from the resolving chord, C. It is also closely related to C#7 in sound. They are diatonic chords I suppose. It works just fine.

That's a new one on me! Where did you run across that sub?

 

The thing that you have to make sure you do on the bII7 is play a #11.

I'm not sure that I can agree with that. It really can go either way. Playing the 5 of the I chord as a common tone throughout the entire ii-V can be hip (this would envolve the #11 of the bII), but it is also quite common to follow the descending chromatic progession of 6-b6-5, basically playing the 5 of each chord. In addition, it is also quite common to do something clever with the b6 and b7 (of I) on the bII chord. In C, that would be some kind of Ab-Bb-Ab something on the Db chord, resolving down to G on the C chord.

Also, BlueNote, I agree with DukeCity. The tritone of I is generally only used when going away from I, not back to it. For example, in a blues: | C7 | F7 | C7 | F#7 | F7 |... But even if you are going to be clever in a Wayne Shorter kind of way and resolve from #IV back to I, it's not going to be done in the middle of what would be a ii-V-I.

 

That's a new one on me! Where did you run across that sub?

I came across it in a reharmonization book from Berklee Press recently. I haven't used the book that much, though (mainly because they make reharmonization sound more complicated than it really is), so it may have been in reference to another sequence. I'll have to check.

 

I'm with Pete - I tend to think tritone substitution is a bit of a lie in fact, although a convenient way to think to quickly get the desired effect. If you look at the way you resolve the tones of a bII7 chord to a I, it's much of a muchness (once enharmonic equivalents are taken into account) with calling it a V7b5b9 (no root) going to I - which to my mind is functionally what it is.

Stefan

 

I think I had a tritone sub in Philly once. Or was it Cleveland.

The secret is lots of oil and vinegar, salt and pepper.

 

The easiest way to think of a tritone sub is: D-7 G7(#11) Cma7= D-7 Db7(alt) Cma7. This works for two reasons 1) The G7(#11), and the Db7(alt) come from the same scale,(the D melodic minor). 2) The 3rd, and the 7th,(the most important notes), are interchangable (F & B). This will sound good if the bass player hits either note,(but different). Excuse the enharmonic difference, I'm trying to make it simple as possible!

 

I think I had a tritone sub in Philly once. Or was it Cleveland.

The secret is lots of oil and vinegar, salt and pepper.

Now that's funny!

 

...Or you can sub the V7 by going up by a tritone from the I chord:
D-7 | F#7 | Cmaj7 | % |

Not a common substitution, but anything can be made to work as long as you know how to resolve your lines. F# could have a pungent sound against the G and F if they sound in the same register, but if you like it then do it. If the whole band is playing F#7 instead of G7 then you don't have a substitution, but rather a reharmonization.

Now a particular voicing (piano or saxophone arpeggio) I like to use to get that F# in there is this:
G-F B-D#-F#

Play your D-7, then my voicing above, then resolve to C. Do it a couple of times to get the sound in your head.

The voicing suggests bi-tonality or a slash chord. It suggests G7 and a B triad at the same time. To try to describe it with one symbol just makes understanding it more complex than it really is. But it is one damn cool sound!!

 

The main point with the tritone sub is that G7 & Db7 share the same 3rds & 7ths.

3rds & 7ths underpin functional harmony in Jazz and are the 1st notes to take care of when arranging, composing or just outlining the harmonic movement of a tune when soloing. They swap from chord to chord. When soloing, it's fine to make a min7th chord into a dominant (this gives more movement of 3rds 7ths)

The 9ths and 13th or the 9ths and 5ths also swap. This is how to build standard 4 note voicings (move 3-7, 7-3, 9-13, 13-9.Try it around a cycle of dominants and you can alter the 9ths and 13ths). If you keep the 3rds/7ths at the bottom of the voicing then these give you a Bill Evans type sound on piano.

To play F#7/C Maj implies a thing that Woody Shaw used a lot which is 1/2 step down II-V-1 ( C#-7/F#7/C Maj). This is more rare than a 1/2 step up II-V (Eb-7 Ab7 D-7 G7). It can't be thought of as a tritone (C7 doesn't resolve to CMaj, although Cmin can resolve to CMaj).

The Tritone sub is actually part of a diminished axis whereby G7,Bb7,Db7 and E7 can all approach CMaj. However, Classical composers often allow dominants to go anywhere.

Best, Jamie

 

The Tritone sub is actually part of a diminished axis whereby G7,Bb7,Db7 and E7 can all approach CMaj. However, Classical composers often allow dominants to go anywhere.

I haven't heard of that before. I can see how G7 and it's tritone sub Db7 can obviously approach C. Also Bb7 which can (modal interchange based on Aeolian), but I can't get an E7 to resolve to C.

Another point, more important for arranging than impro in many cases, is that if the V7 has an unaltered 5th or 9th in the melody, it would be wrong to use a tritone sub. There can be some quite nasty conflicts of voice leading. This is what I was taught. Of course I sometimes break that rule if my ears tell me it sounds good, but like all such rules, it's good to bear in mind.

(BTW nice playing on your videos Jamie)

 

E7 is a tritone from Bb7 and shares its 3rd's/7ths. They work essentially because Fmin goes to CMaj (think Misty, All of You etc). The scales would be E7#9 or Bb7#11 (F melodic minor).

Another way is to think of Amin as a sub for CMaj. So, B-7/E7/Amin is actually B-7/E7/CMaj. It happens in 'I should care' a couple of times.

A lot of the confusion comes from everyone thinking in scales. If I play on a ballad like 'I fall in love too easily' then, on a longish dominant chord, I tend to move from consonance at the beginning of the chord to dissonance at the end of it. The more I mess with the 9th's and 13th's the more it wants to move to the next chord. You can't do that with scales and I think thats the problem with a lot of well known younger players who don't quite get it. If you listen to Phil Woods, he's playing voicings, not scales.

The 9ths and 13ths (not the 5th, thats just the harmonic of the root, often anyway) are the colour notes of music. Thats why we all love "Laura", "Prelude to a Kiss", "Repetition" and other beauties.

By the way, this is just all of the 'in' stuff in harmony. It's not playing 'out'.
You can substitute anything for anything, but this stuff can be expanded forever in logical progression.
Jamie

 

Stevens' First Law of Jazz Improvisation:

If it sounds right, it's right.

The Knight's First Law of Jazz Improvisation:

If it sounds wrong, you ain't listening right

 

I haven't heard of that before. I can see how G7 and it's tritone sub Db7 can obviously approach C. Also Bb7 which can (modal interchange based on Aeolian), but I can't get an E7 to resolve to C.

Would it help if I suggested trying E7b9 first? G7b9 and E7b9 scales are the exact same. Bb7b9, and Db7b9, Abdim, Fdim, Ddim and Bdim = all the same.

Pete, I am sure your playing is miles ahead of most the folks on this web site, myself included. A think the theoretical discussions get to a point where it's just mental gymnastics. But knowing the theory helps me come up up with ideas, cause otherwise I am pretty unimaginative.

 

Would it help if I suggested trying E7b9 first? G7b9 and E7b9 scales are the exact same. Bb7b9, and Db7b9, Abdim, Fdim, Ddim and Bdim = all the same.

Yes you are right, the diminished scales you mention are all the same (well, same notes as each other). But I don't think of E7b9 as a scale. There are many scales that will fit that chord.

BTW I think we mostly agree that scales are only a starting or reference point for impro, ie a means to an end. Best to know the scales so you can know which notes have certain tension and tendencies, then pick your notes FROM the scales to make nice/nasty/pretty/original/cool/authentic/ melodic improvisation.

 

I think that all these subs come from the precedent made by good tunes. If a tune starts on a II chord and gets to a I chord in measure 5, then there are many routes you can take and you can mix them up. To me, what's wrong with real books is that they stop some people listening for the harmonic flow.

On Satin Doll, there is great usage of the tritone in bars 5 & 6. Thats a great tune to practice to learn that change.

It's not about rules or mathematical games, it's just about musical symmetry in functional harmony. "All the things you are" is a beautiful twisting mosaic because of it's symmetry.

Jamie

 

G-F B-D#-F#
....
The voicing suggests bi-tonality or a slash chord. It suggests G7 and a B triad at the same time. To try to describe it with one symbol just makes understanding it more complex than it really is. But it is one damn cool sound!!

Hmm. That would actually be a Gmaj7(#5#13) - or if you really wanted to do the slash chord thing, you could add an A# up top and have a Bmaj7(#11)/G. Either way, yes, that is a very cool sound. I likes it!

And for those who are wondering if the A# thing would really work, try this: G / F-B-D#-F#-A# resolves to C / E-A-D-G(or E)-B. That's the sweetness.