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So, what's a few thousandths of an inch?

3K views 17 replies 14 participants last post by  hakukani  
#1 ·
I've played a few mouthpieces in my time and as long as I get the right reed strength to match the tip opening I can usually play it okay. Big chambers and small baffles usually take more air (so less resitance) but there's not much else I notice. As long as the reed matches, it's okay.

I've read a few posts here about people saying they prefer an 8 tip over a 7* (or things similar)) and was wondering what such a small difference (5 thousandths of an inch) really makes.

Is the tip opening really that critical for any given mouthpiece of the same type?
 
#2 ·
Ive gone up and then choose to pull back on tip openings. Id suggest playing on what is comfortable. On the same type of mouthpiece I can notice a little difference with .005 and a sizable difference with .010. Overall I just suggest anyone play with what gives them the best overall control and tone...not too big...not so small it closes up. In my opininon small variances in tip openings neither adds nor detracts from projection and volume so long as the piece is crafted properly.

Now...some people will tell you that certain tip openings are more or less favorable to the tone of a specific mouthpiece design. There are also certain tip sizes that people have suggested staying away from on certain models....for instance (if my memory serves) the HR Link 8 and gets a bad rap. I cant say from experience if there is justification for this or not...some pretty reputable resources seem to steer folks towards certain tip opeings with certain models. I would think there is some crediblity to that.
 
#3 ·
Depends on the horn too. .005" is a bigger deal on soprano where a typical tip is around .060" as opposed to tenor at .100", give or take a bit. But ya gotta play it. Some like very open mpcs and very soft reeds, some like very close mpcs and very hard reeds. A few oddballs play an STM Link 10 with a #4 reed. If in doubt, stick with a medium tip, medium lay, medium reed and practice.
 
#6 ·
Stitch, here's a (very crude) approach to measuring tip openings - I put the mpc table on a granite kitchen counter and slide automotive feeler guages under it, just far enough to go past the tip rail. Not highly accurate as it depends heavily on your "touch", i.e. how firmly you push the feeler guage under the tip. If you check your results with published dimensions it will help to get the "feel" right. Not precise, but it's better than using a yardstick.
 
#7 ·
stitch said:
can anybody tell me how to measure tip openings reasonably accurately with just common household devices?
Not unless your "common household devices" includes a calipers that measure down to the 1/1000 of an inch.
 
#10 ·
DERAILED!!!!!

To get back to the original question, in side to side tests of Links refaced by the same guy in 7, 7*, 8 and 8*, I found that they got progressively more and more resistant. I don't know if the difference is because of the tip openings, necessarily, but the fact that there was a pattern seems to indicate that they at least played a part. The difference between a 7* and an 8 was slim, but I preferred the 8 at the time, although now I'm kind of wishing I'd gone for one of the 7 or 7* STMS. Oh well. No looking back.
 
#11 ·
gelliot2 said:
I've played a few mouthpieces in my time and as long as I get the right reed strength to match the tip opening I can usually play it okay. Big chambers and small baffles usually take more air (so less resitance) but there's not much else I notice. As long as the reed matches, it's okay.

I've read a few posts here about people saying they prefer an 8 tip over a 7* (or things similar)) and was wondering what such a small difference (5 thousandths of an inch) really makes.

Is the tip opening really that critical for any given mouthpiece of the same type?
The bottom line is, we've all had to experiment a bit to find what works for you. You get this. The idea of working with a medium reed and medium facing and seeing where that gets you is a good one for most people. I think we all arrive at what works for us due to a multitude of factors, including the horn, the gigs we play, our physical constitution, (size of mouth, lungs, etc.), much of which, (if not most of which), is a given. So, as far as I can figure, when people refer to a particular facing, (myself included), they're really just referring to a particular piece that works for them......daryl
 
#12 ·
I have used the electronic calipers and the best way would be to have the mouthpiece on the edge of the flat surface and slide the calipers in the void. I don't think any of these methods (including the feelers) are all that precise, but will work for comparison. Maybe you can use a virgin mouthpiece to check your method.
 
#13 ·
I recently came to the conclusion of making myself a chart of workable tip openings for each of the horns. It is a very personal thing you know: Many players play and like diffferent tip openings. For example, many players play a .60 or bigger soprano piece but it's too open for me--I found that I get the best result with a piece that is between .54 and .58--no smaller and no bigger...i've a workable range for all the mouthpiece now. It is useful to know your limits...I know what is too small and what is too big...I don't bother with the individual manufacture's numbering system(7, C* etc) I go with the ACTUAL tip opening size...

PS BTW I still have for sale a brand new Ponzol M2 gold plated tenor piece that is a .110 (.005 over my comfort zone ...) It's in perfect condition...let me know if your interested...
 
#14 ·
gelliot2 said:
Is the tip opening really that critical for any given mouthpiece of the same type?
I wonder. The difference between .105 and .110 is, of course, .005. Consider that when you play an A=440, that's 440 times per second the reed tip travels the width of the opening from center up to the mpc and then down away from center to sound the note. That's a minimum of 005 * 2 * 440 = 4.4 = the difference in reed travel every second between the two openings to sound only the fundamental frequency of that note. More distance provides more opportunities for partials to sound, which affects the timbre of the note.

But does it perceptibly change your sound? I think I sound about the same on my .110 ponzol as I do on my friend's .115 ponzol, all other things being equal.
 
#15 ·
Al Stevens said:
I wonder. The difference between .105 and .110 is, of course, .005. Consider that when you play an A=440, that's 440 times per second the reed tip travels the width of the opening from center up to the mpc and then down away from center to sound the note. That's a minimum of 005 * 2 * 440 = 4.4 = the difference in reed travel every second between the two openings to sound only the fundamental frequency of that note. More distance provides more opportunities for partials to sound, which affects the timbre of the note.

But does it perceptibly change your sound? I think I sound about the same on my .110 ponzol as I do on my friend's .115 ponzol, all other things being equal.
While it may seem counter-intuitive, increasing the tip opening ON A GIVEN CHAMBER "darkens" the sound produced. And using a reed of the SAME strength on a larger tip opening ON A GIVEN CHAMBER requires more airstream effort (without any biting!!!) to set the reed into vibration. The variables are numerous since no two chambers are ever absolutely identical, tip openings MUST be measured (at least to the nearest 0.001") rather than depending on the manufacturer's numbering system, facing curves vary too, and reeds - well, I guess there's no point in "going THERE". It's sometimes helpful to remember that you DON'T "play the numbers" at all - you're actually playing the aggregate of all these variable factors on your equipment! Sometimes it works, sometimes maybe there's something better........
 
#16 ·
Al Stevens said:
I wonder. The difference between .105 and .110 is, of course, .005. Consider that when you play an A=440, that's 440 times per second the reed tip travels the width of the opening from center up to the mpc and then down away from center to sound the note. That's a minimum of 005 * 2 * 440 = 4.4 = the difference in reed travel every second between the two openings to sound only the fundamental frequency of that note. More distance provides more opportunities for partials to sound, which affects the timbre of the note.

But does it perceptibly change your sound? I think I sound about the same on my .110 ponzol as I do on my friend's .115 ponzol, all other things being equal.
I forgot to mention in my earlier post that Al's math is just fine! But the "travel" in distance he's commented on so accurately doesn't address the increase in "speed" of the reed tip necessitated by the additional distance which must be traversed in a given time frame. Which opens up another (new) can 'o worms for those inclined to feed on such things.........
 
#17 ·
Al Stevens said:
Consider that when you play an A=440, that's 440 times per second the reed tip travels the width of the opening from center up to the mpc and then down away from center to sound the note.
Is that really true? I'm no expert, but that doesn't seem right to me. If we were talking about a free reed like in a harmonica or an organ, than yes, but in an instrument like a sax, isn't it the air column's vibrations that determine the pitch? If you're playing in tune, i would think that the reed would vibrate at close to the same speed no matter what note you're playing.

Again, I'm no expert on the science of sound, but perhaps there is one around clarify.

But regardless, your point is still valid. 1/1000 of an inch can become significant when you figure in how many times the reed has to travel it.
 
#18 ·
princeganon said:
Is that really true? I'm no expert, but that doesn't seem right to me. If we were talking about a free reed like in a harmonica or an organ, than yes, but in an instrument like a sax, isn't it the air column's vibrations that determine the pitch? If you're playing in tune, i would think that the reed would vibrate at close to the same speed no matter what note you're playing.

Again, I'm no expert on the science of sound, but perhaps there is one around clarify.

But regardless, your point is still valid. 1/1000 of an inch can become significant when you figure in how many times the reed has to travel it.
If Al is talking about an alto mouthpiece, which the majority of players play an A=440 on mouthpiece alone, then I think his method holds up.

Interesting question though...