All of the oldtimers in Elkhart say Bisher. I think it really should be more like Bursher but these old names really got changed a lot when the Europeans came over.

 

I know this as been discussed before, and with some intriguing points made. However, I have yet to see the phonetics of Bish'er. Can anyone oblige, please? Is the 'i' as in fish, fie, or fees?

 

I think you can assume that when something is phonetically spelled on this forum the pronounciation will be American. Hence "fisher".

But regarding the question itself, I remember the old discussion and I believe that there was no definitive, or authoritative, answer, rather a lot of speculation. If the "ue" is a spelling for an Ümlaut then that's one pronounciation, but it was pointed out that Buescher was Belgian, not German (although there are German-language uses in Belgium). Also Americanization has reversed the ie, ue, etc combinations from the original.

Then, as pointed out, there's the Americanization, voluntarily or otherwise, of name pronounciations, themselves. I remember vividly an American musician named "Haus" who (in the US) insisted the proper pronounciation of his name was "Haas" only to be exaspirated on his first trip to Germany when, being introduced to his first German, was responded with "Oh, your name is German. Haus, just like house!" LOL.

And so it goes...

 

I agree with you, Gary, wholeheartedly. The problem is that I cannot see a German or French pronunciation in the name... and then add Americanisation! (No offence, BTW, to friends across the Atlantic; read on.)

OK, so what do we Brits do? Well, so far as I am aware, the universal pronunciation is a 'u' sound as in beautiful .... but then some people pronounce beautiful as bootiful and sometimes Buescher comes out the same way.

Now, if only Gus had had time for a family (perhaps he did) and left descendants to explain it all to us. And there are Bueschers about both in USA and UK who might have a tale to tell.......

 

There was an old print ad that actually said "It's pronounced Bish-er". I'll google around, see if I can find it.

 

French pronunciation is like the "a" in "a tree" (B-a-cher) but it's not the good one I think!

 

I always thought it was pronounced with a 'U' sound like beautiful

 

Then, as pointed out, there's the Americanization, voluntarily or otherwise, of name pronounciations, themselves. I remember vividly an American musician named "Haus" who (in the US) insisted the proper pronounciation of his name was "Haas" only to be exaspirated on his first trip to Germany when, being introduced to his first German, was responded with "Oh, your name is German. Haus, just like house!" LOL.

And so it goes...

I was shopping for a Braun electric razor. I asked the sales clerk to hand me the Braun. She was puzzled. I pointed to it. Her response: "The Brawn? It's not brown, it's grey." We do change pronunciations. My father's family lived near the Pomme de Terre river in southwest Missouri. They pronounce it Pum dee Tar. A couple of towns on the Mississippi River are Kayro (Cairo) and New MAAdrid (New Madrid).

 

Buescher = Büscher

it's a german name.

ü =ue
ä = ae
ö =oe

= Umlaute.

Can you say München, Münster, Glück .... than you can say Büscher = Buescher.

sch is in english sh.

 

Scheesch! Not this again!

I say Bisher, that being the way old Elkhart hands say it, the way the company promoted it back when they made my horns, and the closest English sound to how the Germans say it. One person I met in the midwest with friends named Buescher also said Bisher. (I had a sax case with me and he noticed the nameplate!)

People connected with Sigurd Rascher's tradition tend to say Busher, as he apparently did. Company ads also switched to "Say Busher" sometime in the 1950s, when Rascher was doing publicity for them. Coincidence? Hmm.

People in the NYC area, including some very respected sax repair techs, usually say Bewsher.

 

Scheesch! Not this again!

LOL. Yep. just like Freddie Krüger.

Oops. Or is that Krueger. Wait a minute. I mean Crooger.

...the closest English sound to how the Germans say it.

Welll, not exactly. Chris has the closest, I think, regarding German pronounciation.

Buescher = Büscher, it's a german name. ü =ue

Well, maybe yes and maybe no Chris. That's the problem. The "proper" pronounciation of European names by Americans, or US immigrants, is not always the proper pronunciation in the native country.

So - if Paul knows personally guys who worked with Buescher and bisher is the way they pronounced it, seems to me that is the closest we are going to get. That is correct, right, Paul? These guys you knew, knew Buescher? Don't know if we can get any closer than that.

 

Freddi Krueger does he plays a buescher? ) No

Does he play a ugly taiwan saxophone or a selmer? No

With these hands he can only play trumpert.

 

ya know, even someone with the name Buescher, may have pronouned it Bisher, and then got fed up with people mispronouncing it (to their way of thinking) and got tired of correcting them and decided to go with the "flow."

no matter which way you say it, someone will correct you. :lol:

Reminds me of: My name is Raymond J. Johnson Jr. You can call me Ray, you can call me Jay, you can call me RayJay, you can call me Junior, you can call me RJ, You can call me RJJ, you can call me RJJ JR, but ya doesn't has to call me Johnson! anyone else remember that comic? (there was more to it, but for brevity sake I summarized)

Remember don't sweat the small stuff. And , it's all small stuff.

 

I always thought it was pronounced "Shi-shef-ski".....

 

I always thought it was "Busher" which is what my high school saxophone teacher called them years ago (I remember him sniffing that "Rascher plays a Busher"). I think I'll start calling them Bishers.

By the way, here's a picture of Ferdinand August "Gus" Buescher's home - maybe someone in the Elkhart area can find out where this is and go ask around the neighborhood to see what they say.

http://www2.elkhart.lib.in.us/cgi-bin2/vewebsite/exhibit1/e10006b.htm

 

I've got an Buescher ad featuring various Duke Ellington sidemen and their Buescher instruments -- Al Sears (400 tenor), Jimmy Hamilton (400 alto), Russel Procope ("140" alto), Johnny Hodges ("140" alto), "Scad" Hemphill (400 trumpet), Al Killian (400 cornet). With that line up I guess it's from the late 40's or the 50's.

At the bottom of the ad, in parenthesis, that ad states "(PRONOUNCED BISHER)".

 

...Reminds me of: My name is Raymond J. Johnson Jr. You can call me Ray, you can call me Jay, you can call me RayJay, you can call me Junior, you can call me RJ, You can call me RJJ, you can call me RJJ JR, but ya doesn't has to call me Johnson! anyone else remember that comic? (there was more to it, but for brevity sake I summarized)

You can call me Johnny, you can call me Sonny...

Oh yes, I remember it well.
Had a friend that did that bit constantly in Jr. High. Now he is a drummer in a local band that plays an original tune called Mr. Ray - I keep meaning to ask him if there is any connection? Check out the tune here.
Was that a bit that used to be on the 'Gong Show', or was it some other variety type show?

 

This is why I buy Martins.

 

This is why I buy Martins.

Yes, but how do you pronounce that? French style ("Mart-an'")?

Best wishes

Bruce

 

ya My name is Raymond J. Johnson Jr...but ya doesn't has to call me Johnson! anyone else remember that comic?

Oh yeaaah! That cat used to fracture me. Bill Saluga.

He predates the gong show, although I think he appeared on it. He goes back to the Carson, maybe even Steve Allen, show.

Never forget the opening to one of his bits is he's waiting at a bus stop but he's got his back to the audience (and traffic) with the busses going by behind him. Really funny opening bit.

I was also in Jr. High and we'd do the "ya doesn't have..." regularly. I think he would wear something like a zoot suit and would carry a cigar. Nice memory, Bill, thanks. That cat was funny!

Oh, by the way. He didn't play a bisher.

 

Yes, but how do you pronounce that? French style ("Mart-an'")? Best wishes Bruce

Last time I checked, Martins were made in the US of A, not France. I say "Mahr - tin." My tenor is an LA Sax, even less ambiguous, to most.

 

Or you can call my Johnny ---

Bill Mecca,
I remember this guy, he was a burlesque comedian. Anyway, I remember seeing him at the old burlesque show in San Diego on Broadway. This was in the mid 60's. It closed down not too long after that. I think the strippers all went on Medicare (they were all rather "mature").
It was there that I first heard a sax playing flutter tongue. Whether he played a" bisher "or a"busher" I couldnt' say, doubtful a Mark VI player would ever deign to play in an old dive like that. :twisted:

 

I've got an Buescher ad featuring various Duke Ellington sidemen and their Buescher instruments -- Al Sears (400 tenor), Jimmy Hamilton (400 alto), Russel Procope ("140" alto), Johnny Hodges ("140" alto), "Scad" Hemphill (400 trumpet), Al Killian (400 cornet). With that line up I guess it's from the late 40's or the 50's.

Geez Hornlip, where were you and your ad when I was asking a few months ago about prominent jazz players who played Buescher saxophones . You've got three names there I think that didn't come up (Hodges of course was mentioned).

At the bottom of the ad, in parenthesis, that ad states "(PRONOUNCED BISHER)".

That settles it for me, I'm a "Bisher" man from here on out, the Rascherites be damned .

 

In the 60s I bought King horns from a geezer who actually worked for the family and he insisted it was Bisher. I use Busher as it doesn't confues people as much.
Call me anything but call me often.

 

Re. the two comments about the pronunciation of Martin:

Martin Handcraft, Committee, etc. saxes were made in the USA (Elkhart, of course). However, Martin Freres were made in France. So, too I believe, were Martin Busine, although I think they may have been stencilled (by Beaugnier?).

I can handle the French pronunciation, but what concerns me is that early Yanagisawas (and made in Japan) were labelled Martins (the old USA name under Vito-Leblanc ownership). Now, how do you pronounce Martin in Japanese?!