I never do it.
I find it is not necessary if tone holes are level, the key cup is not distorted, the key cup is correctly aligned with the tone hole, and the pad is of high quality. i.e. it is a band-aid, rather than dealing with the CAUSE of a problem.

IMO 'fluffing' - presumably softening the glue and lifting a part of the pad - runs a high risk of getting air pockets behind the pad, which, IMO, is a recipe for unreliable pad sealing.

 

If you go thru the trouble of heating the padcup you may as well put in a new one
Dave

 

Warning! Disclaimer! Warning! Disclaimer!

Shimming is putting something under the pad to account for "unlevelness" in the setup. Fluffing involves disturbing the edge of the pad so it becomes thicker in that area.

Both of these techniques are quick fix bandaids and should not be relied upon as the standard course of quality workmanship.

The right way to do the job is have the right thickness of pad with the key setup to the right height over a nice, level tonehole.

But if you are giving your horn a last minute leak check before a gig, sometimes you don't always have the time and materials to do a pro job on your own horn. In this regard, I think it's acceptable to "do what it takes" to make your horn perform it's best. So these little "cheats" are ok to have in your backpocket.

Again, these are band-aid procedures - not robust problem solving methods.

Sorry - just wanting to make the point very clearly that I don't advocate shimming and fluffing as standard procedure.

 

Hmm...
Shimming and Fluffing..Shimming and Fluffing..Shimming and Fluffing..Shimming and Fluffing..Shimming and Fluffing..

sounds almost obscene when you repeat it enough times

 

How about "shimming / fitting" 10 times fast...

 

When I install pads, I try to get all the variables that I can think of in line. Basically that means, I level the tone hole and the pad cup. Then, I dry fit the pad doing any bending that is necessary to align the pad cup (with the pad in it) to the tone hole. After that I check the pad cup for level etc..

Then, when all is right with the world and the pad slips in without adhesive, I put some shellac behind the pad and install it.

Even after all that aligning and leveling I still find it necessary to heat the cup and press the high spots on the pad into the shellac. Then, the last bit of leak removal, which is very small, is done by fluffing. I consider fluffing to be heating the pad cup and pulling the low spots to the tone hole.

 

Which manufacturers use shimming? Only the very worst of the Chinese manufacturers. And perhaps the Indian ones, whose instruments I have been fortunate enough not to have yet seen. Any more contenders?

And I see no evidence of fluffing done by makers with a conscience, such as Yanagisawa, Yamaha, and I suppose I can just include Selmer as having a conscience - of sorts.

The pads are glued securely into the back of the pad cups, and these manufacturers do not even use glue sufficiently as a filler to enable 'floating'.

 

Seems I recall a rather lengthy section on shimming Jim Schmidt synth pads. Anyone else read that?

 

Thats a whole different padding system. I as well don't fluff BTW. Most of the time the problem that would be fixed by fluffing, is just the result of a bad pad, if the cup and tone hole are level, the correct amount of glue used, then if there is a small leak that needs to be adressed, chances are that the pad is the reason. If not, its time to go back over the tone hole and cup prep work, check everything out and find out whats wrong. Something is wrong, man what is happening to quality work. I like to make a buck too, but not by always taking the easy way out.

 

Thanks once again technical guys...man you guys are great!

I think what I've seen my tech do is the "disturbing the edge of the pad" thing Ez_Sax decribes (and he's doing it for free because he knows I don't have the cash for repairs), just to stop some leakage. The other one (shimming) sounds totally corrupt and I'm sure he'd never do that.

I'm trying to make some pads last beyond their natural life, and I guess what I was interested in was if I could learn to do this quick fix thing myself...safely (obviously, if I poke a hole in the pad I've defeated my purpose:shock: )

Is the idea that you push the edge of the pad up or do you try to pry it up somehow?

Rory

 

Disclaimer: Band-aid instructions ahead.

Heat the key cup to a sufficient temperature to just soften the glue. It will be different for different glues (experience required?!). If you are inexperienced, you may burn (darken) the lacquer. You must not apply direct heat to key pearls (careful, experienced application of flame required!). If they are plastic they will melt; if they are shell, they will burn. Avoid applying ANY flame to corked surfaces, because the cork will instantly burn (experience required). Be very careful not to apply flame to the leather of the pads, especially those of neighbouring keys. Experience required.

Then by any means you like, say by using a needle, or small screw driver, or metal shim, you lift the non-sealing area of the pad a little further out of the pad cup. Even if the needle punctures the outside edge of the pad, that doesn't really matter.

Probably the most effective way is to lift it a little TOO far, then wait until the glue has cooled until it can still move but is almost set (experience required!?), then close the key just firmly enough (no more! - experience required?!)) to push that high area down to the level where it needs to be. You could do that while checking with a feeler (many locations around the pad) or leak light.

Note that a micro-torch with a thin flame that spits out, is a lot better for localised heating, than is a fatter alcohol flame that wafts about and cannot be 'squirted' to a location.

We technicians see a lot of damage done by inexperienced attempts to 'fluff' pads. But go for it! You don't seem to have any other options, and you now know what to be careful of.

 

Just to keep the other side of this discussion alive, I have to mention that fluffing is still, IMO, a fine way to get the tiniest leaks out of a pad. Certainly it's not the way to align the pad to the tone hole but, to remove little teeny-tiny leaks I thinks it's just fine. In fact I know of no other technique that works as well to take out miniature leaks at the end of padding.

I've never installed a pad that could not have been made more level. Every pad I've ever installed leaks to some tiny degree and every horn that I overhaul leaks when I give it back to the player. I think it's impossible that one could ever install a pad made of felt and leather and not have it leak to some degree. It may not leak air when the player plays or when gravity or a spring is holding the pad closed but, when I lower the pad to the tone hole in a pitch black room so slowly, one part of that pad hits the tone hole before the others. If I let gravity hold the pad shut maybe the light is gone but at some level, that pad leaks. I think we could spend our lives on one horn or even one pad trying to make it better and better. That said, how is everyone getting out the tiniest little leaks at the end of their padding jobs. Is it possible that we're not talking about the same procedure here or that we are talking about different levels leak removal?


Gordon, as far as manufacturers go, I don't really get that point. This year I've overhauled 3 Selmer Series IIIs. This summer I have two more coming. Two of them were brand new from the box. The players just wanted me to overhaul them using my pads and my tuning techniques. The horns both leaked badly from the box and there was not too much glue behind the pads. I don't believe that the manufacturers are the place to look for inspiration when setting up a horn. I've also done some new Yamahas and they leak too. In fact, I repaired tone holes, key work, reppadded and set up all of these horns. They played great when I was done but only played OK when they came to me.

 

I have to agree with Curt. Especially when your doing a "student" overhaul on a horn - ie if the horn's condition is such that bending all the pad cups would take more time than the horn is worth.

 

Curt, I largely agree with your last paragraph. The point is that most manufacturers do not rely on using adhesive as a FILLER. If there is not enough there to use as a filler, and you fluff areas of pads, then you will more than likely be introducing a air pocket behind the pad, and have that area of the pad supported only by the glue at the edges of the pad. Glue does not EXPAND to take up the gap created during fluffing, so if support is to be retained, then firstly there must be enough glue to behave as a filler, and secondly, the entire glue will need to be made semi-liquid, so that some can migrate from another area to the fluffed area.

I agree that Selmer's padding is mighty poor. I reckon it is partly because of not too level tone holes, and partly because of lower quality Chanuk (sp?) pads that they re using.

The padding is pretty good on a Yanaigesawa. (But the Yanagisawas I see are padded in Japan. I don't know about those marketed in USA.)

 

Regarding pad leaks and gravity closing during testing:

Because the keys are hinged from the side, and there is elasticity in any pad, it is impossible to achieve two separate ideals:

1. Simultaneous closure or all parts of the pad, especially front and back, as tested by leak lights. This is ideal for clean changes from one note to the next.
2. Equal closing pressure right around the pad when sufficient finger pressure is exerted in order to achieve a seal. This is tested by using a feeler around the pad, a is normally done with other woodwinds. Equal closing pressure is important for the player to use a light touch and still achieve a seal.

So the gravity closing test is not the ultimate test. A suitable compromise between the two ideals is found by the astute technician.

It is also impossible to achieve similar ideals when one key operates another. Technically speaking, simultaneous closure, and equal pressure on both pads, are mutually exclusive adjustments, because of the flex in the metal linking the keys, and the 'give' in the silencing material employed in the linkage.

A good technician makes compromise adjustments intuitively.
It is my belief that an even better technician does these adjustments with technical understanding of WHY the compromises must be made.

 

Just to be clear, gravity is a good way for me to tell someone how much pressure to put on a pad when checking for leaks. If I say, as I did in my post, that the pressure of gravity is sealing the pad but that's not good enough, it allows a person to understand how much pressure I'm talking about putting on the pad when leak checking. Some people will say a horn "does not leak" but they are looking for leaks using a lot of pressure on the pad. Of course that will not work, hence the gravity analogy.

As fas as manufactures go, I've always known them to bend pad cups to level pads. I've not found this to be a good way of leveling pads. Mind you I have nothing against bending pad cups but if they are already level and oriented to the tone hole, I try not to do it.


I guess my original question was, "how is everyone is taking out the teeniest little leaks at the end of their pad job." I do as much prep as anyone I know of and I still need to move the pads around to get those crazy small leaks to be even smaller. They never go away, the room can always get darker, the light brighter or the feeler thinner.

At the end of your pad job, If you're not heating up the pad cup, softening the shellac then moving the pad a tiny bit in local areas to get the tiny leaks out, what is everyone doing?

 

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with all you said, Curt.

If there are tiny, localised leaks, after getting all alignment issues as good as possible, there are several options:

1. Use a different pad that is hopefully more even in its leather and felt thickness.
2. Use a pad that incorporates softer felt, so that discrepancies can be accommodated.
3. Fluff the pad, without glue as filler.
4. Fluff, or otherwise distort the pad, with filler.
5. Slightly distort the key cup.
6. Other?

Each of these has a down-side, and I suppose each technician chooses as to how he views the downside.

Something that I have sometimes pondered is that technicians check key cups for level against a flat surface. However considering how key cups are made, probably with rather low precision methods, I see little reason to assume categorically that the levelness of the key cup edge corresponds with the levelness of the BACK of the key cup. It is the back that matters. It may well be, that that tweaking the shape of a key cup to get a pad to seal, actually improves the levelness of the BACK of the key cup.

For observers of this thread, much of it is about about discrepancies in the order of 0.01 mm (0.0004") or even less. Even discrepancies this small are significant on woodwind instruments, to the discerning technician and player. Of course there are many players who use gorilla grip and enormous breath support, in order to deal with leaks that are 50 times greater, or even more. Gorilla grip can actually quite easily bend key cups.

 

Of course there are many players who use gorilla grip and enormous breath support, in order to deal with leaks that are 50 times greater, or even more. Gorilla grip can actually quite easily bend key cups.

I think that the test players at Selmer must have these attributes. I often find their saxes in particular to need far more setting up from new than say Yanis or Yamahas.

 

Very true!

Either that, or nobody actually adjusts the pad sealing; perhaps they just wedge the keys closed, and hope some magic process will occur during transit.

What I have noticed is that the easy-to-adjust, easily accessed, non-linked-to-other keys on Selmer are generally OK. But almost invariably, the most inaccessible keys were never adjusted to get good pad sealing, typically the small C key, upper Bb, the F#, and the G#. And on soprano saxes, where access is most difficult of all, there are ALWAYS leaks under these pads.

Please, Selmer, if you are reading, could you make the effort to adjust the sealing of these pads before piling more keys over the top? Those transit wedges just don't do it!

 

I don't see how Selmer can hope to have sealing instruments out the door. There isn't enough shellac to float any of the pads with, so they must be just jamming pads in and cranking them down to set them up. My Ref 54 alto from last year was as leaky as a seive from the factory. Each pad had four little dabs of shellac behind it, enough to hold it in, but no where near enough to adjust. Somebody must have seen how the price of shellac has gone up.

 

this is such a good discussion...

Hey guys,

This is such a good discussion that I didn't want to interrupt.
The techniques you've been debating the relative merits of are, however, way past what I've seen my tech do. In the past, when he has detected some minor leaks with the light he does some deft little thing to the pad with a metal hook/pin thingy and then presto all nice and sealy again.

And, I'll just add, he always says something like "that'll hold you for a while, but you need some new pads." No heat, no removing, just a kind of deft tweaking

I guess I'll ask him to show me next time, but I sort of feel like I'm taking advantage already (that's why I was wondering if I could learn the trick myself).

Thanks for all the info though!

ps. I was going to get the new pads done, but I flipped over a King Cleveland!

 

If you buy one of Curt's repair kits, you have the supplies you need for emergencies and more, plus a nice step by step instruction manual and email support from Curt. It really is a good deal.

http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/kit-100.html

 

I don't see how Selmer can hope to have sealing instruments out the door. There isn't enough shellac to float any of the pads with, so they must be just jamming pads in and cranking them down to set them up. My Ref 54 alto from last year was as leaky as a seive from the factory. Each pad had four little dabs of shellac behind it, enough to hold it in, but no where near enough to adjust. Somebody must have seen how the price of shellac has gone up.

Yanagisawa (at least the Japanese-set-up ones I see) also use glue to glue pads, not as a filler. But the adjustment of these instrumetns is very good.

Putting a great chunk of filler behind a pad, and using a 'floating technique' is a band-aid to accommodate a mutitude of sins. Such band-aid is uknnecessary if alignment of key cups with tone holes is good, tone holes are level, and high-quality, consistent-thickness, slighlty accommodating pads are used.

However I do think the entire back of the pad should be glued to the cup. Perhaps Selmer is a little remiss here, as in many other areas, compared with Yanagisawa.

 

Do threads this old get looked at by our esteemed techs? If so, my question is, is it fair to say that if a pad has developed a small leak, and it's not a timing issue (my low C pad leaks in one small spot), it needs to be replaced?

Thanks,
Jim

 

Which manufacturers use shimming? Only the very worst of the Chinese manufacturers. And perhaps the Indian ones, whose instruments I have been fortunate enough not to have yet seen. Any more contenders?

And I see no evidence of fluffing done by makers with a conscience, such as Yanagisawa, Yamaha, and I suppose I can just include Selmer as having a conscience - of sorts.

The pads are glued securely into the back of the pad cups, and these manufacturers do not even use glue sufficiently as a filler to enable 'floating'.

All these manufacturers clamp the bejeezus out of the pads (yes, a bejeezus-free horn!!) before shipping. In this manner, they obviate all 'fine adjustment'. I agree with Curt...I like to leave the compressibility of the felt for the user to use up over time as the horn is played, rather than use it this way, so I do make some final 'tweaks' in much the manner he described. I would guess, though, that I am only lifting the pads 100-200 microns when I take out the last little hairline before seating.