I'd like to know the answer to this as well. The only thing that I know of that changed on those models was the high F# key. I believe on the very early models it was a brass bar and soon after the horn was introduced, it changed to a pearl-inlayed oval. I don't know if that change corresponds to the switch from a model 164 to the TS-100 or not, but it happened very early in the serial numbers.

 

Any pics of the high F# bar? I've never seen this on any Omega I've had. I've also heard that the front F changed from a pearl to a teardrop key, but I've never seen this either.

fm

 

I just bought a pristine, used Selmer USA tenor, s/n 1150xxx. It has a metal, oval shaped high F# touch key, and a metal teardrop shaped front F# key. No pearls on either one. Gold lacquer body and keys, Selmer USA on the bell. Curved bottom Bb key, curved G# key. No engraving on the bell other than name and model. I've spent hours online searching for info about this horn. Best I've come up with is it was built early '90, '91. Its the seldom found "closet horn." The guy I got it from (less than $400, BTW), played it two semesters in high school and put it away. Not a mark on it other than the neck support bar looks to have been re-soldered - and a nice job, too. The only thing I don't like about it is the high F# key is about the same height as the side Bb key. Play Bb and barely touch the F# with a knuckle and oops! Squeaks and silence. So I have to lift the right hand and hit Bb with the side of the big knuckle of the forefinger.

I came up with a way to raise the side Bb a little without damaging the finish. About an inch of Radio Shack heat shrink material slid over half a toothpick is perfect. Raises the Bb about 1/16" higher than the F# and eliminates the inadvertent touching of the F#. Not elegant but its cheap and it works.

 

I think I recall seeing a picture of one for sale that had the high F# bar, but I'm not sure. My 162 alto has the bar. It's serial #8206xx. I can post a pic of it when I get a chance.

 

I've got out my 1986 Selmer Saxophones brochure, and my 1994 (?) Selmer Great Names In Music Saxophone brochure, and my 1997 (?) Selmer Great Names in Music Saxophone brochure. I'm not seeing any real visual clues in the pictures in them. In both of the '90's catalogs, the TS100 horns look identical - visually similar to the Paris VI and VII. The 164 in the '86 catalog also has the same visual and mechanical cues - small petal right hand pinkies, oval pearl high F#, round pearl side F# and round pearl front F. Big visual differences appear to be color hue of the lacquer - darker on the 164, yellower on the TS100, and the engraving - curlicues on the 164, leafy floral on the 100.

The 162 alto and AS100 alto have the same differences as the TS and 164. The AS110 though has a solid "bent-bar" high F# key and the teardrop front F key. The AS110 is also "laser engraved" in a vine-y pattern as opposed to the leafy pattern of the AS100. I think the AS110 also had higher palm keys, but it's been a while since I've handled one.

dv

 

Let's see if this works...

Here's a pic of my alto with the high F# bar. I bought it new in the summer of 1983.

I'd love to see people post pics of their 80's and 90's Selmer USA horns with serial numbers so we can start compiling info on how these horns evolved.

 

You photo didn't seem to work. I have the best luck by adding my pictures to Photobucket first (free) and then putting the links they give you here.

 

Your photo didn't seem to work. I have the best luck by adding my pictures to Photobucket first (free) and then putting the links they give you here.

Weird... When I click on the link they provide and paste it here, it's the same as the one I posted. Does the link work for anyone?
http://s1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/vsj725/?action=view&current=Selmer_162.jpg

 

I posted some info on the USA I bought earlier. Now, here's some better info I got from "Allexperts" on the web. My USA tenor has a brass "teardrop" side F# and a flat plate brass high F#. So mine is, according to this info, from the late '80's to early '90's. The guy I got it from said his parents bought it in about '89 as he recalls, cuz that's when he was in high school band. No matter though, the horn plays great. There are a couple things I'm not crazy about though; the high F# touch is about the same height as the side Bb. It's easy to hit it when going for Bb. I made a "riser" for the Bb from some clear plastic tubing which raises the Bb no more than 1/32", which is perfect ( first tried heat shrink tubing with toothpicks shoved under it but the clear plastic is thicker.) The other thing of some concern is middle, or octave, D, which seems "muddy". There are no leaks I can find with a leak light and the pads are all o.k. I'm guessing its technique plus reed plus mpc.

But - here's the response from the "expert."

Hello TFlanster, Thanks for the great question. You have a Selmer USA. The Selmer(USA) Omega line of alto and tenor saxophones were superb professional instruments rivaling the Selmer(Paris) line. They have distinctly full bell engraving and may or may not say "Omega" on them, these are late 1970's and early 1980's models. Later Omega horns have less bell engraving and are not as desirable for Selmer USA horns, though they are excellent intermediate horns. Key indicators are the neck. If the neck support is a think 'beam' type it is the later model. If it is the type similar to Paris horns it is the desirable model; also the engraving is much more extensive on the earlier models. Anything with model number including MG is not their earlier pro horn..From the early 1980s until approximately 2001 Selmer USA made their top-of-the-line saxes in Elkhart, Indiana. the The Model 162 Omega alto sax was the first model introduced. The Model 164 was the first tenor introduced around serial number 823000 (notice the lack of the "Omega" title. The model designation was changed to either TS100 or TS-100 when it was realized that professional players were not buying this "pro" line. The TS100 used a different numbering sequence starting with 1xxxxxx (1 million +). In the early 80s, the serial numbers were around... 828xx tenor, then in the late 80's/early 90s, 820011 - 1288792 alto and tenor, This is what you have. The early saxes had a dark lacquer and many Selmer Paris mk VI key-work styling. Later horns had brighter lacquer reminiscent of the Paris Selmer Super Action 80 and late mk VIIs. Earlier horns had a brass high F#, later models had a pearl high F#. Your tenor was made in the late 80's early 90's. It's a great sax, perfect for the seasoned professional player. Play this horn proud! It's not a Selmer Paris but it's still the USA version of the Paris Selmer. I bet it plays great! Have fun!

 

But - here's the response from the "expert."

Hello TFlanster, Thanks for the great question. You have a Selmer USA. The Selmer(USA) Omega line of alto and tenor saxophones were superb professional instruments rivaling the Selmer(Paris) line. They have distinctly full bell engraving and may or may not say "Omega" on them, these are late 1970's and early 1980's models.
...[cut]

In the early 80s, the serial numbers were around... 828xx tenor, then in the late 80's/early 90s, 820011 - 1288792 alto and tenor,
...[cut]

I think these two statements are wrong. The first statement is misleading. I don't believe any of the 1980-1990s Selmer USA pro horns ever had 'Omega' anywhere on them. They simply have USA on the bells.

The second statement seems to imply that the late 80s Omega horns had serial numbers as low as 820011. I'm sure that Selmer didn't backtrack on their serial numbers and start in the 828xxx range then regress to the 820xxx range. I know that I bought my alto in the summer of 1983 and my serial number is 820684. By the late 80s early 90s the numbers were probably closer to the 830xxx range. A few months ago, I bought a tenor that was advertised as a TS-100. It has a serial number in the high 828xxx range.

 

There is something very interesting I found posted by enviroguy. This was a while ago and seems to have been ignored. If true, this information could really help date the Selmer model 162/164 (Omega series I).

quote:

Joe Hillomni:
Bought a used Selmer tenor with Serial Number 827572. I would like to know what model it is. Went to selmer website and this one is newer than their lists that stops about 1992. It has not been taken care of very well, but man does it play nice!

enviroguy:
For a long time, the Selmer USA serial number list was just a continuation of the Buescher serial numbers. Based on the Buescher list, that serial number dates this sax to 1981 or 1982.

This information brings up the question: Were the Omega/162 saxes made by Buescher?

 

If ever there existed a confusing, misleading, lousy mfr information subject, this is it! Mfr's should state "Serial Numbers Don't Count" in their literature. Buescher to Selmer to Conn to Martin to whatever. Damndest thing I ever did see. I'm into golf club repair and custom fitting. Serial numbers on clubs from most major mfr's are the same as sax s/n's. Useless. I also like handguns - now there you can find valid info. Uncle Sam and ATF require stringent paper trails regardless of the price of the weapon. But an $8000.00 used sax? Forget it! Its nuts.

 

Well, you're right it is confusing. But, there is a hell of a lot more money in making guns than there is in saxophones so there is more incentive to be accurate. Also, manufacturers use serial numbers for their internal accounting and inventory… not for us sax nerds. The serial numbers only has to make sense to the company itself.

 

Well, you're right it is confusing. But, there is a hell of a lot more money in making guns than there is in saxophones so there is more incentive to be accurate. Also, manufacturers use serial numbers for their internal accounting and inventory… not for us sax nerds. The serial numbers only has to make sense to the company itself.

You may be right re; what s/n's are for but more money in guns? I doubt it when virtually every grammar, junior and high school has a band, and colleges across the country have bands, I'd guess that the music instrument business doing a lot better financially that say, Smith&Wesson, Colt's, and myriad others. Now, I'm not talking about cannons and machine guns cuz the various army's of the world have a lock on those - but then, they have bands, too.

Ah well, this is clearly off-topic but it is fun to speculate. I'll stick with my weapons of choice; Selmer USA tenor and Cleveland Launcher driver.

 

I'm trying to ferret out the real differences between these two models. I've had a few people tell me that the Model 164 started with SN 820xxx and ran through 825xxx and that there are a mix of 164s and TS100s in the 825xxx range. After that, it's TS100 up through 829xxx.

There were two styles of engraving in the models I've seen. The earlier serial numbers tend to have the ribbon-style engraving while the later ones tend to have the typical American flower engraving found on the Mark VI and early MVII. The really late models might even have engraving up the back of the body tube (I've only seen this on altos, but I hear that this option was available for tenors too).

There are those that say that the key work was slightly simplified and cheapened when the model was re-designated TS100. I'm having a problem with this as I have 2 tenors in front of me...an 821xxx, which clearly falls within the Model 164 SN range, and another one in the high 825xxx range. I examined both horns thoroughly and found absolutely NO differences in the keywork. None. The neck is the same. The tenon socket is no different. The key work looks absolutely identical between the horns. All the ribs that the posts are attached to are the same. The only differences I could see were the color of the lacquer (early=dark, later=ligher) and the engraving (the early one had the ribbon engraving, the later had the more elaborate American Selmer flower engraving).

I've never had two altos in similar serial number ranges that I could compare like this...I'm wondering if there was a difference between the AS100 and the Model 162? Or is this all a bunch of hoo-hah like I suspect?

I'd love to hear from people that have compared the two, or can perhaps up some pics that we might use to compare them.

fm

No difference in the 821xxx and 825xxx because they're the same horn. About the time they started using the 'Super 80' clear lacquer and had changed to the 1,xxx,xxx serial numbers, they also were using Super 80-type larger RH pinky keys and a tear-drop hi F#. These are what I call the AS and TS100 series. About this time they gave up on the 'pro' angle and began to have great succes marketing them as 'intermediate' horns.

 

'Were the Omega/162 saxes made by Buescher?'

No. I've got to hand it to you morons, this thread has brought out more misinformation than any I've seen before. Is there no end to it?

 

I thought it was an interesting question, since Selmer bought Buescher around the same time as the Omega came out. It occurred to me that Buescher designers or builders were possibly working for Selmer during this time. They also had a reputation for making great altos including the Big B and True Tone. If it is a moronic idea, how do you explain the continuity of Buescher serial numbers?

 

No. Selmer bought Buescher in about 1963. I bought a new Selmer Buescher 400 tenor in 1964.

 

My my, look what I've stirred up!

So, I've learned a little more, mainly by looking at more horns. Based on the horns I've seen, here's what I'm guessing:

Very early Model 162 altos had a metal bar side F#...vsj725's pic is proof of this. I've heard this from other people, but discounted it. His (or her?) posting of a pic is what finally made me believe this.

Model 162 altos and 164 tenors had the ribbon style engraving that was fairly modest. Nothing like the American engraving found on American Mark VI models. I've seen this style of engraving from serials 821xxx up to 823xxx. These also had darker gold lacquer coatings.

Somewhere between 823xxx and 825xxx, Selmer redesignated these horns as AS100/TS100. I've heard someone claim that there was a mix of horns designated as 162/164 and AS/TS100 in this serial number range. I've seen horns in this range with both DARK gold lacquer and clear S80-style lacquer, as well as both ribbon and classic American Selmer engraving (with the typical flower adorning the back of the bell). I even have an alto in the 823xxx range that has BOTH the ribbon style engraving AND the American Selmer floral engraving on the back of the bell. I assume this might be some kind of "transitional' engraving style where they started to step up the engraving to make it look more like a pro horn.

For 825xx-830xxx ranges, Selmer stepped up the engraving and applied the same engraving (sometimes a little simplified) that was used on the Mark VI and early Mark VI American engraved models. This engraving typically extended all the way to the bow, but on altos, there are examples where the engraving extended all the way up the back of the body tube of the horn. I've only seen this in the 829xxx range. For the most part, the lacquer had changed from dark gold to the clear S80 style lacquer. The latest model I've seen was 830xxx in a tenor. Light lacquer, amazing engraving, and IDENTICAL to the horns dubbed "Model 164".

What I was trying to figure out was, is there a mechanical difference between a Model 162/164 from the 821xxx serial number range and an AS/TS100 from the 829xxx serial number range? From all of the horns I've looked at (over 20 so far), my observation tells me NO, there is no appreciable difference between the horns. The bore, neck, and key work look identical.

I say this because I've been hassled by a self-appointed "expert" that claims that Selmer "cheapened" the Selmer USA line when they changed the 162/164 line to AS/TS100. I can find absolutely no evidence supporting this claim. Once the serial numbers went to 1,xxx,xxx, there were definitely differences (neck brace, keywork changed, etc). But from the horns I've seen over the whole gamut of the Selmer USA "Pro" line, I could see no differences.

I have pics to back this all up, but it's almost 12:30am and I need to get some sleep before I wake up again at 5:30.

fm

 

My my, look what I've stirred up!

So, I've learned a little more, mainly by looking at more horns. Based on the horns I've seen, here's what I'm guessing:

Very early Model 162 altos had a metal bar side F#...vsj725's pic is proof of this. I've heard this from other people, but discounted it. His (or her?) posting of a pic is what finally made me believe this.

Model 162 altos and 164 tenors had the ribbon style engraving that was fairly modest. Nothing like the American engraving found on American Mark VI models. I've seen this style of engraving from serials 821xxx up to 823xxx. These also had darker gold lacquer coatings.

Somewhere between 823xxx and 825xxx, Selmer redesignated these horns as AS100/TS100. I've heard someone claim that there was a mix of horns designated as 162/164 and AS/TS100 in this serial number range. I've seen horns in this range with both DARK gold lacquer and clear S80-style lacquer, as well as both ribbon and classic American Selmer engraving (with the typical flower adorning the back of the bell). I even have an alto in the 823xxx range that has BOTH the ribbon style engraving AND the American Selmer floral engraving on the back of the bell. I assume this might be some kind of "transitional' engraving style where they started to step up the engraving to make it look more like a pro horn.

For 825xx-830xxx ranges, Selmer stepped up the engraving and applied the same engraving (sometimes a little simplified) that was used on the Mark VI and early Mark VI American engraved models. This engraving typically extended all the way to the bow, but on altos, there are examples where the engraving extended all the way up the back of the body tube of the horn. I've only seen this in the 829xxx range. For the most part, the lacquer had changed from dark gold to the clear S80 style lacquer. The latest model I've seen was 830xxx in a tenor. Light lacquer, amazing engraving, and IDENTICAL to the horns dubbed "Model 164".

What I was trying to figure out was, is there a mechanical difference between a Model 162/164 from the 821xxx serial number range and an AS/TS100 from the 829xxx serial number range? From all of the horns I've looked at (over 20 so far), my observation tells me NO, there is no appreciable difference between the horns. The bore, neck, and key work look identical.
I say this because I've been hassled by a self-appointed "expert" that claims that Selmer "cheapened" the Selmer USA line when they changed the 162/164 line to AS/TS100. I can find absolutely no evidence supporting this claim. Once the serial numbers went to 1,xxx,xxx, there were definitely differences (neck brace, keywork changed, etc). But from the horns I've seen over the whole gamut of the Selmer USA "Pro" line, I could see no differences.

I have pics to back this all up, but it's almost 12:30am and I need to get some sleep before I wake up again at 5:30.

Yes, there are significant mechanical differences. The RH pinky keys became like the Super 80, along with the tear-drop high F instead of the round pearl and 'clear' lacquer. The necks on all of the tenors were the same design, very much like the Super 80 or k VII. These saxes are still as good or better than the earlier 'gold-lacquer' examples. I just mentioned the two obvious key differences because its been a very long time since I had my hands on one of these and I don't remember the finer points. And I never pay any attention to engraving in a comparison like this because with Selmer USA, they changed frequently and didn't seem to have any consistency.

 

Thanks for writing this. Very interesting stuff. So as far as you can tell, the body tube and tonehole placement is the same on all the horns?

 

Yes, as far as I can tell, tone hole placement and the body tube is the same.

If you think about it, just the fact that they added much nicer engraving mimicking the MK VI of the past tells you the Selmer considered the 8xx,xxx horns "pro" horns to the very end. The engraving started off as very modest with the early Omegas, with just a little ribbon filigree on the front of the bell above the Selmer USA engraving. As the serial numbers went up, the engraving became more and more elaborate. If they were going to cheapen the horn by simplifying the key work or use cheaper materials, why would they step up the engraving? And why on earth would they offer full body engraving as an option on SN 829xxx horns (dubbed "intermediate" models by so-called experts)? It just doesn't make sense. It is more likely that Selmer was desperately trying to make this pro model more attractive to budget-minded horn players.

I think people people that claim that the AS/TS100 series horns are somehow "lesser" horns than the 162/164 horns are confusing them with the 1,xxx,xxx horns, or perhaps even the AS110/TS110 horns, which really are more of an intermediate horn (they did transition to simpler key work and cheaper materials). That would have been around the time that Selmer decided that pros were still buying Selmer Paris and gave up on the Selmer USA as a pro horn line.

fm

 

does anybody know the outer diameter of the neck tenon of 82XXXX tenor saxophones? Will modern Selmer Paris neck fit on these? I have a late Mark VI neck (diameter: 27,49mm) and am thinking about buying a Omega tenor as backup for my Mark VI as the keywork of the Omega look very simular to the Mark VI.
Any advice would be great. Thanks.

 

thinking about buying a Omega tenor as backup for my Mark VI as the keywork of the Omega look very simular…

They look similar, but they do not feel the same- at least the altos don't. I have a mk VI and an model 162 Omega. The VI is a bit more comfortable for me. I recommend playing one before you buy.

 

I've got one at home I'll measure and get back to you.

fm

 

Fungus Mungus, this would be fine.
Thanks a lot.

 

Measured...for those that are interested, the neck tenon had an OD of 27.5mm.

fm

 

soybean, thanks for the advice.
Unfortunately the Selmer USA saxophones are very rare here in Germany. There is no way for me to play one before. So I have just bought the saxophone for a good price so there is no problem to take a chance.

 

Good price is always good. Please post a review after you have owned it for a while. I'm curious about the tenors.

 

I have just bought a Selmer USA Omega from a SOTW member and got it the day before yesterday.
First, my Selmer Mark VI neck fits perfectly on this instrument. Thanks Fungus Mungus to measure the neck tenon of your Omegas.
I bought the Selmer USA as a backup for my Mark VI. I tried and bought many instruments the last years to find a good and "Mark VI like" backup for my rock´n´roll gigs. So I had 3 Selmer SA80I, 1 Selmer SA80II, 2 Guardala New York, 1 B&S Medusa, 1 B&S Blue label and 1 Yamaha YTS52.
There are some small differences to my Mark VI regarding the keywork. The front F key is a little bit lower, the low C key and the G# cluster smaller but overall to me it feels more like my Mark VI as all other Tenors I tried. After playing the Selmer USA the last two days I can say that these instruments are very underrated and less expensive than most of the other Tenors I tried.

 

Are you preferring the original neck or your VI neck? On the Omega alto, I tried my mark VI neck but did not like it as much as the original Selmer USA neck. The USA neck had more power.

 

I prefer the Mark VI neck on the Selmer USA as it has a lower arc and so a different playing position.
Besides, the USA neck is brighter and less centered than the Mark VI neck.