Grab the omnibook and steal a lot of licks, hehehe....

 

This thread might help you - Oleo is a rhythm changes tune:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=105730

 

Thank you. This was helpful. I missed it in my search.

 

I have a lesson on 10 A section RC lines on my website. Other than that I find that just working on the A section at a very slow tempo and running the changes in eighth notes helps a ton. Just create lines using chord tones at first 1,3,5,7,9 and create lines that move in a solid direction through the changes. Go at a slow enough tempo that you can do it. Once you really have the chords down then work on creating lines with the chord tones on the downbeats and passing tones on the offbeats. You could also just play around with Bb concert scale patterns and approaches over the A section and let you ear guide you. Listen to them a ton.

 

I would agree with running the changes, by which I mean chord tones only, both as arpeggios and creating using just those chord notes, experimenting with using even as few as one or two notes per measure, various rhythms, etc. Start out at a ballad tempo and increase gradually over a couple of weeks keeping it musical as opposed to an exercise. Once you can do this at tempo, and can hear the tune all the way through, then start thinking about the 9th. Once you have achieved musicality with that, then start looking at the 11th and 13th.

 

You might consider counting out the rhythm with the playalong, first. Several times if needed. Once you are comfortable with counting the rhythm you'll gain confidence for playing your horn with the playalong. Learning to count rhythm is an important skill to develop and arguably as important as what notes you play with your instrument. Hope this helps you, unless I totallly misunderstand what you are getting at.

 

"Tenor Conclave" with Hank Mobley, John Coltrane, Al Cohn and Zoot Sims would be a good transcription project to get 4 great player's ideas in one tune. Also "Eternal Triangle" with Sonny Stitt and Sonny Rollins has fantastic stuff but watch out for the fact the middle 8 is different (chromatically descending II V's).

 

You could run through some guide tone lines, use some 4 note cells a la Volume 1 of the Bergonzi books, and transcribe. I know that your goal is to play all the changes, but some harmonic generalization might be useful too. For instance, you can approach all the ii-V's as just V, or if you want to get really general, 4 bars of I, 2 bars of IV, and 2 bars of I.

 

I recommend you check out the Aebersold vol. 47 "I Got Rhythm Changes in All Keys." The introduction section of the book has some really great ideas about how to approach rhythm changes.
-I'm not sure if you were referring to this volume or not in your original post, but, for what it's worth, it is a great source of ideas. Good luck!

 

Likewise, when I read G-dawg's thread title I was confused. I thought he meant chord changes?

But after reading E7's post I thought G-dawg meant "chord changes as used in `I got Rhythm´"?

I am still confused but at a higher level.

 

I'm only getting past this myself but I started out on rhythm changes considering the sections as pedal tones.
Because I'm primarily a blues player I needed somewhere to start and give me confidence. Treating the sections like they had a static harmony got me playing with ideas before sticking to the page (which I'm only chipping at now).

A C7 (8 bars) (8 bars)
B E7(2 bars) A7(2 bars) D7(2 bars) G7(2 bars)
A C7 (8 bars)

There's a Sonny Rollins Rhythm changes tune on my soundclick (in sig....)

happy playing!

 

study the melody,quite a bit!..usually the melody on the A SECTION is very strong with the parent key, ie a tune for ALTO in G, often would lend itself to tones G,B,D,F#,A!.
the tune i got rhythm!...is very strong with the notes G,B,D,E..THEY ALL SOUND QUITE GOOD IN LICKS PATTERNS!.
...try it on a playalong just use these four, then add the A...
Making patterns with G maj scale or A minor dorian, would be very benificial..

 

Rather than blues scale (as suggested elsewhere) you've got good point. I believe that a beginning improviser should play the pentatonic scale over the A part.

In case of alto sax playing in G-key: g, a, b, d, e

 

Great thread!

I got that "Rhythm Changes" book awhile ago and I've been slowly getting a hang of it. For me the part of Aebersold's discussion that really stands out is where he talks about how many of the older, more jump bluesy type, players really generalized over the A section--and used the blues scale over it alot too (top of page 4). That certainly matches what I'm hearing on my recordings. Of course, if you're going for Sonny Stitt, that's another thing!

Slightly off topic, but it's really too bad that modern blues players don't seem to use the IGR contrafact to jam anymore; go back to the 40s and 50s and it's everywhere in R&B--eg Bill Doggett/Clifford Scott. Those older players seem to have internalized the changes just as much as the basic 12 and 8 bar blues patterns.

I have a book of transcribed IGR solos in PDF format. Pm me if you want a copy.

Rory

 

Great thread!

I got that "Rhythm Changes" book awhile ago and I've been slowly getting a hang of it. For me the part of Aebersold's discussion that really stands out is where he talks about how many of the older, more jump bluesy type, players really generalized over the A section--and used the blues scale over it alot too (top of page 4). That certainly matches what I'm hearing on my recordings. Of course, if you're going for Sonny Stitt, that's another thing!

Slightly off topic, but it's really too bad that modern blues players don't seem to use the IGR contrafact to jam anymore; go back to the 40s and 50s and it's everywhere in R&B--eg Bill Doggett/Clifford Scott. Those older players seem to have internalized the changes just as much as the basic 12 and 8 bar blues patterns.

I have a book of transcribed IGR solos in PDF format. Pm me if you want a copy.

Rory

What's IGR stand for?

 

Hi Steve!

I'll tell you, but if you feel silly after do I get a free lesson?

IGR=I Got Rhythm:smilebox:

 

ok so I am a relative dummy on this one can one of you take a second and shoot me an e-mail outlining the changes? For those of you that don't know me I don't see so I can't look at a chart thats why I am asking. I understand that its built around 1,6,2,5 but beyond that ??? thanks for any help
bill
williamkociaba@comcast.net

 

Of course, looking to give advice to someone having "problems" with something like this depends on their point of reference. So, not really knowing that, have you read Pete's commments on this? They're pretty good: http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-i-got-rhythm.html Is this what you're looking for, or do you need something deeper or more fundamental?

 

That was helpful. Thanks, Gary!

I think, as a player, I should be beyond needing to think on the beginning as all I. And I already use the blues scale too much to simply use that.

But, I can't quite wrap my mind and fingers working together to hit the changes. I understand the harmony, and can play the scales...but getting it to all work together in a comprehensive fashion...

I was hoping there was a step or suggestion in between the simplification of 8-bars of I and the (to me) complexity of hitting the changes accurately.

 

Analyze the chord changes so you know how the chords are related to each other within the context of the progression. Listen to recordings of the tune so you learn to recognize and internalize the form and get an idea of how the tune sounds. I would suggest being able to arpeggiate the chord changes in time so you internalize the the chords from a technical and aural stand point. So you can hear them and play them. I like to analyze the the changes to get an idea of the key centers. Transcribing solos and studying them gives you an idea of what different players are playing over the changes. Just practice playing over the changes once you have an understanding of how they sound and the theory behind them. Play simple ideas on 1, 3, 5, and 7 and then once you are comfortable with this get more complex with you ideas. And when first starting on something like this practice slowly and be patient.

Chris

 

Neff - I purchased your IGR A section last night and printed it. I listened to your recording as well. This will be a very helpful tool. I see the harmonic structure in each of those lines and I think this will help me understand the chordal relationships. Very cool...thanks for sharing.

Yeppers...guess it's slow, metronome time for a while!

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

 

As with everything in jazz - transcribe.

Pick some rhythm changes tunes, transcribe them, and start learning the licks in other keys. Pretty soon your ear will start to hear it. Then you can toy around with some of the other theory behind it.

 

Ok man I will share the odd secret with you.I guess thats the beuty of the net. So much free advice take it or leave it right.

Well there was a time when guys like me use to supplement their playing by instructing. How times have changed. Thats how we all survived as artists.

Ill pass on secrets if just now and again as lomg as you find a player whos good, local and pay for the odd tuition.Its worth it really and helps the pro all round. However only pick someone whos playing you like.

OK Rhythm changes. Like Blues this is essential work out,

First learn a tune over this form then work out from it down the melodic line.

Play down the changes using your ear and use the head as a spring board.

No matter which other ways you decide to approach it make sure you do this one and OFTEN. Then switch keys take the whole thing through the keys.

Thats mandatory Now very very important Your saxophone has 12 rooms 13 if you count chromatic, bird use to talk of 13 right. 13 rooms in your head.

So you learn to be able to do everything in all 12 or 13 rooms. Do that and life is cool. Don't do it ignore this and it is an up hill struggle for ever .

A section on Rhythm changes is dead easy. Learn that very easy standard progression in your head and play down the melodic line.

Next you can approach A section the way the genious pork pie hat did.Go way back into history listen to lester and there is your answer .

B section Sweet georgia brown with a different relationship to the time, you dig man. This is not a riddle but its designed to get you to develop naturally.

Now here is a big trade secret do this and youl go far. Kim, Koko,work towards and when your ready study thenm but not till your ready.Study thwm well as I have mentioned.

Next a set of changes on a bird tune hows title is a type of American indian

Work out in these changes often as I have stated. Remember all keys melodic line. (Workout solo not repeat not with a play along)

If you want to go on to he train route, etc thats great but nail this down first.

I cant stress working off ear down the melodic line enough. No matter who your heros are you must first and foremost be you otherwise there is no point playing in my view.

Over many years ive come across far too many clones.It is totally pointless.
Don't fall into the trap.

Remember my advice about seeking out a good pro that plays the style you like. As the great miles Davis said you hang with the right people you get a direction like that. At this point he cliks his fingers.

Oh yea and don't hang out with squares or negatives. Believe in yourself
be committed. The function of music remember its enrichement it can't be bought.

Rememger 13 rooms ha ha, good luck.

 

This is a battle I have fought several time. I've practiced these changes night and day, gotten almost comfortable with them, not played them for a while, and when I come back to them, I have to start all over. I've got experience here.

First a few comments

1 ..... the I VIm IIm V7 sequence seems to me to be the basis of MANY tunes, with some variation occurring with the VIm which can be a I#dim or 5 different other things. This sequence is everywhere.

2. This I VIm IIm V7 sequence is just basically a 2-5-1 with the second chord variations available for a little coloration. This is the basic sequence, and you can play it as a 2-5-1.

3. To the particulars of the Rhythm Changes ... I must say that these changes do not inspire me in any way ..... they in themselves do not provide a context for me to do much except try to get through them ...... there has to be something more, and I'm thinking that I've played them as part of tunes and the melody of the tune has provided a context for creating lines. That is to say, practicing these changes cold is not inspiring to me.

4. The thing that really used to hang me up was bars 5 and 6. I just could not feel that change, much less anticipate or play it. Really, beginners can't do nothing ! So my strategy was in the very beginning, and I admit, still is, is to get a few licks to play over those chords so you have something to fall back on. I just got out the horn to try it .... and I see that if you're playing in G then the chords are Gmaj G7 C7 Cm7 and you can play half notes G2 F2 E2 Eb2 and it gets you to bar 7. This really gives you the feel of the changes. Now you need something hip at bar 7 to relieve the monotony, so you can play a quarter middle D2, a quarter high D3, and eight notes coming down B2 G2 (the notes on the horn being from bottom Bb0 B0 C1.... C2..... C3..F3 ?) or G#2. Or you can play eighth notes G2 F#2 G2 A2 B2 A2 G2 F2 E2 G2 D3 C3. With these two phrases to play on bars 5 and 6 (and 7 for the 1st phrase), you can survive the rhythm changes.

5. This seems too simple to many I'm sure, and too rote .... but ... it works for me .... sort of ....