Low C basses are practically impossible to stand with, unless you use a peg. A low Eb is a better blowing horn, but that’s not usually how the instrument is utilized.

 

Low C basses are practically impossible to stand with, unless you use a peg. A low Eb is a better blowing horn, but that's not usually how the instrument is utilized.

Wow, I really hope this gets out to all the top makers so that they stop putting hook loops on low C bass clarinets, and then they can convey this to guys like Marcus Miller because what he is doing is impossible and not the usual utilization of the instrument, perhaps even convince him that the Eb horn plays better, too...

 

So you are saying that the bass is usually utilized as a harmony instrument and that soloists prefer the low Eb variant?

 

I agree with Merlin that it's probably mostly due to size and ergonomics. Most jazz players of bass clarinet are either doublers, or play mostly improvised music, or both. When playing improvised music, the slightly reduced range isn't really a problem, and doublers have likely gotten used to the (less expensive and more readily available) low Eb instruments that they acquired early in their careers.

That said, several of the most prominent jazz bass clarinetists, including Eric Dolphy, Bennie Maupin, Myron Walden, Marcus Miller and Marcus Strickland, use(d) low C instruments.

 

CORRECTION: Eric Dolphy never ever played a low C bass clarinet. He played a low Eb Selmer and gave the lowest notes so much power it felt lower.

 

The low C is about a foot longer than the low Eb horn and obviously, it's more cumbersome to play standing up. It isn't too bad standing with a low C though, as long as your stance is right of center with your left leg slightly forward; it takes some getting used to. It's a far cry better than this I would imagine.

 

It's a far cry better than this I would imagine.

View attachment 7257

Hey, I recognize this. Bb Subcontrabass recorder?

 

Miking a shorter Eb is easier - might be a reason too. But I guess most Eb players would switch to the low c if they could flip instruments for free.

 

Not sure about that. Some seem to feel that the low Eb is more expressive, even those that can afford it.

This seems to go beyond personal preference, and I am wondering if the low Eb is more acoustically "correct" than the low C, or has a more interesting sound in terms of the overtones?

 

Not sure about that. Some seem to feel that the low Eb is more expressive, even those that can afford it.

This seems to go beyond personal preference [...]

Based on what? Can you name any well-known jazz bass clarinetists playing on modern (i.e., current-production) low-Eb horns?

I know of a number of players (including Bob Mintzer and Chris Potter) who play on low Eb horns, and for whom cost is probably not an object. But these players tend to play on old Selmers that they've owned for decades. This would suggest that comfort, familiarity, and perhaps differences between older and newer instruments, are the main factors.

If there's a difference between the response of low Eb and low C horns, than that should be evident on current-production horns of the same make and design (e.g., like Selmer's models 67 and 65).

 

I've never played an equivalent low Eb horn to my Selmer, but I suspect that the lighter weight and easier miking are major factors.

The only people I've ever played with who were louder then me were playing low C instruments and I don't think that has anything to do with it. I think they'd be louder than me on any functional bass clarinet.

The one advantage of can think of to some of the cheaper low Eb horns is a better throat Bb because the tone hole only exists for that one note. That has nothing to do with the low Eb though, add everything to do with the single register vent mechanism. My Bundy has an absolute massive throat Bb.

 

"Can you name any well-known jazz bass clarinetists playing on modern (i.e., current-production) low-Eb horns?"

Brian Landrus, Michel Portal, Luis Sclavis play current Selmer model 65 to Low Eb.

 

Brian Landrus, Michel Portal, Luis Sclavis play current Selmer model 65 to Low Eb.

Have you reached out to any of them to find out why they selected the Model 65 over the Model 67?

(Also, FWIW, this picture, among others, shows Landrus with a Low C instrument, so maybe he doesn't play the Model 65 exclusively?)

 

"If there's a difference between the response of low Eb and low C horns, than that should be evident on current-production horns of the same make and design (e.g., like Selmer's models 67 and 65)."

That's the thing: there is absolutely a difference both in design and response. These players that probably get free instruments, would be playing low C, right?

It seems that those jazz players and improvisers that specialize in the bass clarinet and aren't doubling, play Eb. Check out Jason Stein or Rudi Mahall.

For modern classical music, I can understand the desire for a low C as composers write for the lower notes.

 

"If there's a difference between the response of low Eb and low C horns, than that should be evident on current-production horns of the same make and design (e.g., like Selmer's models 67 and 65)."

That's the thing: there is absolutely a difference both in design and response. These players that probably get free instruments, would be playing low C, right?

Is this statement based on your own personal experience? If so, then perhaps you should be answering this question rather than asking it.

I, personally, haven't been able to compare low C and low Eb instruments of remotely similar design or vintage. I also suspect that, since this is a saxophone forum, most of the responses that you get will be from the perspective of doublers.

Have you checked the answers to similar questions on the Clarinet BBoard?

 

Thanks for your perspective. Not trying to start an argument!

The Clarinet BBoard is strongly focused on the classical tradition... folks seem more open minded on this board.

You are correct that Landrus plays a 67 as well, but from what I can hear on his latest recordings, plays a 65.

My own personal experience is with the Selmer Low C, plus listening intently to the aforementioned players and noticing their preferences. I have never been able to play-test the 65 and 67 side by side, although played a student low Eb prior to getting the Selmer, which is why I started the thread.

My best guess it that between the two, the acoustics are indeed different, in the same way that the acoustics, in general, between an alto and tenor vary slightly. (I have played both extensively). It seems that the shorter horn, in both cases, is more "inherently" nimble, although this is certainly not an absolute as we know.

 

Thanks for your perspective. Not trying to start an argument!

I apologize if I came off as snippy, I asked my question earnestly. It's difficult for most players, myself included, to get access to many examples of professional bass clarinets in both low Eb and low C variants. I was implying that if you had done so, then you'd be in a fairly unique position to answer the question you asked.

My own personal experience is with the Selmer Low C, plus listening intently to the aforementioned players and noticing their preferences. I have never been able to play-test the 65 and 67 side by side, although played a student low Eb prior to getting the Selmer, which is why I started the thread.

My best guess it that between the two, the acoustics are indeed different, in the same way that the acoustics, in general, between an alto and tenor vary slightly. (I have played both extensively). It seems that the shorter horn, in both cases, is more "inherently" nimble, although this is certainly not an absolute as we know.

I haven't personally noticed much difference across low C and low Eb instruments (at least no more than I have across, say, different models of low Eb instruments), but it seems like the better analogy would be of low Bb vs. low A baritone saxes. Alto and tenor saxes vary in ways that low Eb and low C instruments don't. E.g., they are built using different cone angles, their common pitches occupy different parts of the harmonic series, etc.

As far as I know, the bores of low C and low Eb clarinets are more or less identical, no? For example, aren't the bells and necks interchangeable across the 65 and the 67?

 

It probably also has to do with the fact that, when you're soloing, you just aren't going to be in the lowest part of the low register very much. It's not going to project and you'll usually be occupying space already occupied by the bass. Since players in small combos are almost always playing with bassists and are generally living in the middle and upper registers a lot of the time, it might not make sense to carry around the extra notes and make the instrument harder to mic when you won't be using them much.

 

I'd also probably suspect the difference is more like the difference between a Low A and low Bb bari than the difference between alto and tenor.

 

+1

You echoed me while I was posting.

 

Yes, the bores are more or less identical although the actual bore characteristics are not well known. The bell of the 65 has a resonance hole whereas the 67 does not, so they are probably not directly interchangeable without affecting some part of the acoustics. The neck should be interchangeable as far as I can tell. Companies tend to be more conservative and less interested in innovation with clarinets than saxophones. I guess the sales numbers don't support big changes, or the classical world is interested in a particular sound so the companies stay with the accepted standards.

The bari low A vs low Bb example may be more apt than alto vs tenor for the reasons you mention. However If we did a hypothetical, and added three notes to the bottom end of a tenor sax, I am guessing it would certainly behave a lot differently.

 

I have both a Low C and Low Eb horn and I play standing up on both. The Low Eb is much easier to handle and to mike, but the Low C just sound much more balanced, also because it's a much newer instrument. Both work great in jazz or any other type of music. I know many jazz players that play Low Eb horns, and just as many that prefer a Low C. Comparing clarinets to saxophones in terms of acoustic behaviour does not make much sense to me as the instruments are very different acoustically.

 

[QUOTEYou are correct that Landrus plays a 67 as well, but from what I can hear on his latest recordings, plays a 65. ][/QUOTE]

Five years ago, in a similar thread, Brian Landrus gives some reasons why he's taking the the low c model on his tour. It's a mix of being used to this particular instrument, having a good case, sound of this particular instrument etc. See post 25 and 27:

Bass: Eb vs. C?

Just curious, for those who own both a low Eb and a low C bass clarinet: Let's say you're doing a gig where you don't need the low C for the extra three bottom notes. Would you still use your low C or would you play it on your Eb? I only own a low Eb, but was thinking about this situation if...

www.saxontheweb.net

 

The bells of low Eb and low C bass clarinets should be different designs. The space needed between the last two half steps is different in order to play in tune. Some makers just use a low C bell on both BCs but drill a hole in the bell to raise the pitch of the low Eb.

My 1st gen Kessler low C actually came with a bell on it designed for a low Eb BC. They made the tenon length for the low C to be in tune, but the low C# was then 1/4 tone flat. Later I purchased China made bell off eBay that was correct for my Kessler. So they caught up to this issue and I would expect most Asian made low C BCs are correct now.

My first BC was a Normandy to low Eb. Then I got the Kessler and now I have a Selmer 37. I do not play jazz on them but I use the extended notes a lot in wind ensemble music. Difference in tone and response between my BCs is based on the brand quality and I do not think is significantly due to the the low note range.

 

The low C# tone hole in the bell needs to be 1/4” higher than a low E in the bell.

 

Well, if Dolphy was playing a low C, almost all pictures I've seen of him performing have him standing. So it must be possible.

A bass clarinet to low C is not that much different from a baritone sax, it seems, only probably lighter. If the strap hook(s) are properly located, why wouldn't it be possible to balance it properly?

 

He actually played the Eb almost exclusively and I guess it was not easy for him to get a low C horn in the States. In the Last Date documentary, order logs at Selmer chronicle that a low C was made for him and it would obviously be a mid to late letter series serial # instrument. Don't know for sure if he was able to buy/get or borrow one while he continued his tours in Europe before '64 and/or Selmer got one to him when he came back home between '61 & '64.

 

Dolphy was definitely playing an extended range bass clarinet for some period of time, as evidenced by all the low D's in the most well-known version of God Bless the Child (the one Roger Janotta transcribed).

 

Absolutely, and even if the Janotta transcription of the Copenhagen performance is the more well known of the versions he performed on the low C horn, IMHO the Berlin Concerts performance is better, even with the loud clunker in it.

 

The low Eb bass clarinet seems to be preferred over the low C by a large majority of jazz and improvising musicians. I read one musician who commented that the low C is a totally different instrument from the low Eb.

Is this due to some acoustic advantage of the low Eb? Bigger sound? Greater resonance? More projection? Better blend with other instruments?

A less "constricted" feeling because of the shorter tube length?

If one is not playing classical or chamber music, is the low Eb the preferred choice?

I own both - an older low Eb Vito and a modern Chinese made low C model. The low C model has a lot more key work and must be considered more at risk of accident. There are more options in the low Gb-Eb rangeThe right hand thumb keys mean you cannot keep your thumb in the thumb hook while playing them. but the split neck makes draining it much quicker. The greater length of the low C model means that you need a higher chair if you are playing while seated.
For me the choice of which to play in a range of situations depends on how safe I feel the instrument will be and the ruggedness of the Vito (plus its lower value) means it often takes precedence. Playing the bottom end of the low-C model is a source of satisfaction in itself though.

 

I just bought a Low C (Polaris) and I agree whole heartedly with the above "Playing the bottom end of the low-C model is a source of satisfaction in itself though. It rattles the walls of my studio.

 

I'm no sort of expert, but I have been playing for a couple of decades on a low-Eb Selmer Series 9, which I love, and just acquired a Model 67 (to low C). A big difference right off the bat is that the low-C horn weighs a TON next to the low-Eb instrument. The intonation is much better on the newer horn, as could be expected. Also as you'd expect, the low-C horn is much more complex technically. I don't believe low-C horns were that common in say the 60s; symphony players needed it for Shostakovitch, but Dolphy might well have had trouble getting hold of one. I wasn't aware that Sclavis played a low-Eb instrument; he's a Selmer artist and theoretically could have whatever horn he preferred. So, summing up my post, I'd say play whichever you prefer and can afford, unless you're doing Broadway, film scoring, or symphonic work where low-c horns are the minimum requirement. ETA: I'd prefer to take the low-C horn on a gig absolutely; Komuso is right about that "rattles the walls" effect of the lower notes. A bit more loud fun than my Series 9.

 

I’m glad this thread is trending towards a reasonable understanding that both the Eb and C horns are designed to play equally well if they’re quality instruments. The one plus for the low C that isn’t readily apparent is that the bass is a Bb instrument, that means that you can resolve all the way to concert C, B and Bb in the lower register. You can’t resolve or start a simple figure or complete a cadence that involves those notes on the Eb horn.

 

Yeah Dolphy absolutely had a horn that went below Eb for some period of his life. He is most commonly pictured with a low Eb horn, but he most certainly was on a low C instrument for the version of God Bless the Child that's become most famous. It's very possible it wasn't a horn he played for very long, but he sure sounded incredible on it! No less power than any other horn he played.

But I think he'd spent so much time on his tone and technique that he'd sound about the same on anything. Especially moving the kind of air he moved.

 

Someone said here that Eric Dolphy's bass clarinet went down to C. It didn't. I have looked at it in photos and videos. It went down to its D, which is an uncommon length. I have heard him play that note (concert C). By the way, his horn had a register key on the neck.

Joe Temperley, the excellent baritone saxophone player, also played the bass clarinet, and said that low Eb is enough. There is a Youtube video with him saying that. He also, like all the top baritone saxophone players, avoided the ghastly low A model.

My bass clarinet is a low Eb, but I once played on a Selmer low C model, on loan. The bass clarinet is no good for jazz soloing live, unless you have a good mike. The middle register is very soft, and if you push it, you get a squeak. Without a mike, the drummer will drown you out.

 

Who made a low D bass clarinet?

 

I've seen old Conns and Leblancs that were keyed to low D (stock, as far as I could tell). However, I don't think that Selmer ever sold such a model.