Where are you putting the line between modern and vintage? I think of certain horns as modern, but then I realize it's 2020 already

 

1975 or thereabouts

 

I've owned just about every brand of vintage horn at one time or another. I still have a couple because I couldn't get what I wanted for them so I kept them. I've been debating whether or not to overhaul my Selmer Large Bore to keep as a trunk horn. But at this point in time what's the rush, jam sessions are non existent here. All my main horns are modern. All Yamaha's. The ergos are perfect for me and after getting the neck and mouthpiece situation sorted out I'm very happy with my sound. So, I guess I'm in the modern camp.

 

Gotta think about this one a bit. I was a dedicated vintage guy until scooping a B&S CJS tenor earlier this year. While not exactly vintage, it's long discontinued, so vintage-y? My own Kohlert isn't as old or as choice as yours, but has a lovely focus and feel--it really does vibrate under the fingers. It's a load of fun, but so much harder to blow than my B&S, and very mouthpiece-picky.

My late-50s TH&C B12 has the best egos of all--I prefer in-line tone holes, and the LH cluster is so right for me. Plus I feel the tone's more malleable than my other horns. Altissimo's not quite as easy as on the B&S, but maybe sounds better when you hit it? The palm keys sound not quite as thick, though it's pretty close. The TH&C is perhaps not as even overall, but that's no doubt user error. I'm a terrible player.

When it comes to altos, my Kohlert's a lot like the tenor, but needs work. I really like my beater YAS23, and have performed with it on stage, but it just can't compare to my Zephyr or my Comm III for tone and soul. The Zephyr has great egos too, though there's definitely something special about that Martin. I literally dream about playing it.

Tough question . . . .

 

Minimal vintage experience, basically just a Conn NWII and my Cavalier Conn stencil that wasn't and still isn't setup properly... both had very big tone and some work to get things going. Sounded sublime though.

But my modern horns are supposed to be vintage-esque modern horns (Mauriat and Eastman 52nd st are said to resemble vintage conn by sound) and I own them because they had a massive sound compared to other modern horns, but with good modern keywork, and no struggle!

So modern wins for me - I'd rather not struggle to play, as I love the process to be as unimpeded as possible!

As for the timeline, I always like to think of semi-antique (50years old) as vintage. But it is true, should have a cutoff!

 

As Dr. G states "Go For The Tone" and in my experience the tonal characteristics have swayed many a player towards vintage instruments. Some people are happy to adopt (to less refined ergonomics) while others require the utmost of fluidity. I think its where your focus is at - tone or ease of play. If you're a well seasoned and somewhat frenetic player then perhaps the keywork is the most important aspect of your horn. Then of course like those above, that are some happy to maintain relationships with both. When I'm messin' with a vintage horn I'm fully focused on its tone but I do somehow and sometimes feel more connected to a modern horn probably because of the more intimate embrace the modern design offers you.

 

My newest sax is the one I bought in 82, the only new one I ever purchased.
I have a 1019 C melody and a 1904 conn flute.
New is nice too.

 

My saxophones are all vintage, Conn crossbar bari, Keilwerth angel wing, Chu Berry stencil alto and Universel Savana soprano.
The last modern instrument I had was my Selmer Bundy ll student tenor back in 1990.
I've played Yamahas and an SA80 and true, modern keywork is lighter and the intonation better so I guess it's a better tool for the job, so why am I playing vintage? I guess it's the feel of the instrument, the sound - my alto has the most beautiful sweet old fashioned tone - or maybe I just play it that way because it's how it makes me feel. The Keilwerth is big bore, with sturdy keywork, it has to know who's boss, it's dark and complex in tone. The bari is big and friendly, the soprano is sweet and has a fluty sound most unlike modern snake-charmer sounding ones.
I can't imagine getting that kind of feeling from a Yamaha good as they are and because of how the instrument makes me feel I want to play it, after all, one can't get too much practice.

 

I don't think "vintage" vs. "Modern" is a date, but rather depends on design. To me the first modern sax would be the Selmer Mark 6/ Balanced Action (pretty much all modern saxophones are copies of either this or copies of Selmer's own Mark 6 copy, the Super Action 80).

So they divide up:

Selmer - Super = vintage; BA (1936) = transitional; Mark 6 (1954) and beyond = modern - except the Mark 6 soprano which was a throwback - not till Super Action 80 did they modernize the soprano.
Buescher are all vintage, even unto the Bundys made as late as 1980 - I remember seeing a brand new baritone marked "Selmer USA" that was a Buescher 400, as late as 2010.
King are vintage except those few last-gasp ones made on modern lines in the 80s; the Zephyr bari was made until 1980 or thereabouts, split bell key layout and all.
Martin are vintage
Conn are vintage until sometime in the 90s or so when Conn-Selmer started importing Asian Selmer copies and branding them "Conn".
Almost all Yamahas and Yanagisawas, and all the current Asian horns, are basically Selmer Mark 6/Super Action 80 copies thus modern.

A 66 year old Selmer Mark 6 is a more modern instrument than a 40 year old Buescher labeled "Selmer USA" or "Bundy".

 

I don't think "vintage" vs. "Modern" is a date, but rather depends on design. To me the first modern sax would be the Selmer Mark 6/ Balanced Action (pretty much all modern saxophones are copies of either this or copies of Selmer's own Mark 6 copy, the Super Action 80).

+1 regarding the emphasis on design vs era, yet it splits two-fold: bore geometry (tone) and mechanism.

Look to modern instances from R&C and Borgani for horns that are away from the Selmer-inspired core.

 

That a boy, you've circled back just a bit with your B&S! If I ever get my playing to a respectable level again, I'll own another 2001 or sibling!

 

The problem with this argument is that it is too instrument specific. Normally I have been in the vintage camp my entire life. Until recently that is. I opened myself up to trying more and more modern horns. When I did so, I managed to find a modern horn with the sound that is very reminiscent of an SBA with modern keywork and I was hooked. After tons more practice (which I have been obsessed with for the past few months) I also figured out that if I push it, I can brighten it up a lot, in which it has more the 140k VI type of sound but with more volume. The thing is that it is a type of sound not the sound of and I can also play it louder and softer as well. So I chalk it up to just an excellent horn. There was a similar one to this that was not as good as this one as well. I’ve had the same experience with vintage horns as well. I like the modern keywork and since I have tried it vs my other horns I can notice the difference. Nothing I can’t get past, but I’ll say that I am much more willing to try both and possibly go more modern as sometimes it is harder to find a vintage horn that plays as well without sinking a ton more money into.

 

The problem with this argument is that it is too instrument specific. Normally I have been in the vintage camp my entire life. Until recently that is. I opened myself up to trying more and more modern horns. When I did so, I managed to find a modern horn with the sound that is very reminiscent of an SBA with modern keywork and I was hooked. After tons more practice (which I have been obsessed with for the past few months) I also figured out that if I push it, I can brighten it up a lot, in which it has more the 140k VI type of sound but with more volume. The thing is that it is a type of sound not the sound of and I can also play it louder and softer as well. So I chalk it up to just an excellent horn. There was a similar one to this that was not as good as this one as well. I've had the same experience with vintage horns as well. I like the modern keywork and since I have tried it vs my other horns I can notice the difference. Nothing I can't get past, but I'll say that I am much more willing to try both and possibly go more modern as sometimes it is harder to find a vintage horn that plays as well without sinking a ton more money into.

 

the only thing that makes chocolate so fabulous is the existence of strawberry.

 

The only thing that makes strawberry's so fab is the existence of chocolate

 

I grew up playing vintage American saxophones, then dabbled in modern Selmers during my more formative years believing the old stuff to be junk. Since coming to SOTW shortly after the turn of the century, I was inspired to fix up my older horns and meeting up with others on the site, got to play more vintage ones. Now my most modern horn is a 1969 Silversonic tenor. My two sopranos are at least a hundred years old. Same with bari, and my go to alto is over ninety years old. All of my Selmer (France) horns, four of them, have long been sold. So vintage all the way.

 

Generally speaking, people lean towards vintage for: 1) tone and 2) blowing response.

Tone is self-explanatory; blowing response is a harder thing to define, but includes things such as being able to coax certain sonic coloration out of the horn, being able to bend the intonation and even the tonality (when you wanna), stuff like that. (This is a VERY generalized comment, I realize).

But In my experience as a refurbisher, that's what leads people to vintage horns, And they are more than willing to make (relatively small, IMHO) ergonomic adjustments if what the can have are the aforementioned attributes. Personally, since this is a poll thread....I find most of the ergo arguments to be bunk....the human body is quite capable of making small adjustments and quite capable of acclimating comfortably to those adjustments.
So certain notions/arguments made in favor of 'modern ergos'....I don't buy (and neither did my osteopath, who got a big kick out of me explaining that the common argument for an offset lower stack is it's more comfortable, allows you to play faster, and puts less stress on joints....which left him in stitches when I showed him the actual hand position it provides the player). Likewise, the pinky table of a Yama 23....the supposed shining example of a user-friendly table...IMHO, sorta sucks. I always unintentionally hit other keytouches when going for the Bb, to avoid this I must put my arm in a position that I need not do on most any other horn...and the G stack key is too close to the G# pinky touch. Etc...
The other thing which is rarely mentioned is - some vintage models simply have great key action and layout - the keys are responsive and the layout is easily and comfortably navigable.

Do SOME contemporary horns with 'modern' keywork also possess such tonal and blowing response attributes ?
Yes, a few do...very few, but some do.

(2 small comments:
~ Bore Geometry in and of itself is not a determinant of Tone...there are small bore horns which sound quite dark, wide and lush. Many vintage horns are not large bore, and saveral large bore horns do not give the player the impression of 'needing to be filled up with air more'.
~ Conn (UMI) was bought-out by Selmer in around 2003, not the 90's...so all Conns from '84 to then were USA-made under UMI....)

 

While mostly agree with you, you left out one thing from the vintage horns. They take more air/breath control - every Conn I've played anyways, was harder to play than any modern horn in terms of air volume. I had a friend I convinced to buy a conn NWII,and she was unable to put enough air through to comfortably play compared to a more modern Conn shooting star model.

Otherwise I would have traded mine in for Conn's! Love the sound. Still eager to try a super 20 though

 

Interesting question. I have never played a Yamaha or Yani, the most modern horns I have are my B&S (here we go again), a P Mauriat "saxello" and two L.A.Sax (curved sop and alto). But the ones I am playing are all old Buescher, Conn, Martin and King. On the tenors, it is the weight of my 156 that I prefer over the modern horns, on the altos, it's more the fact that I restored the horns myself from junk status (Aristocrat 1 and NW1). And otherwise it's probably more in my head to play something that's even older than I am rather than anything rational.

 

Personally, and no offense intended to the OP or anyone else, I've never understood the "I like vintage horns because they're more of a challenge to play" mentality. I understand the thought - vintage cars are more "challenging" to drive but the driver is rewarded with a more pure man-meets-car experience - and saxes may be the same to some degree. Still, is the saxophone not a difficult enough instrument already without the need for a horn that "challenges" the player? Perhaps like a driver a sax player is rewarded with a different or "better" tone or feel from a vintage horn, but that moves into very subjective territory.

I've always been in the "vintage for tone / modern for ergos" camp. There's the question, however, of just how good the ergos need to be for a given player. Rascher played "The Carnival of Venice" on an early Buescher just fine. IMO, "modern" keywork began with the Selmer BA, was fully realized with the Mark VI, and has been further perfected by Yamaha/Yanagisawa through today. Herein lies the appeal of the great Selmer horns: that vintage sound and "feel" that everyone's looking for coupled with great keywork. I'll say the Mark VI tenor keywork fits my medium/small hands like a glove.

My dream alto and tenor would be a satin-silver Buescher Series I Aristocrat with Yanagisawa keywork (not that I find Buescher keywork "bad" - I did my undergrad degree on one).

 

Yes, yes and yes!

 

I realized when I posted this that some would make it a black and white issue. The intent of the question is this, what advantages and disadvantages of both vintage and modern from your personal experience on whatever set up you are using. I would think that this would only apply to those who own and play on both sides of the coin.

I play both and being 60 I have played many what would now be considered vintage like my first horn Couf Superba I. It was as modern as you could get in 1975 but in no way is it as refined as most modern horns.

 

OK. I'm 65 and have owned and played tenors including: Buescher Big B, Buescher TH&C, King Super 20, King Marigaux, Selmer Balanced Action, Selmer Serie III, Selmer Ref 36, Borgani Jubilee J-series (finishes: UL, gold pearl, silver pearl, silver plate), and Borgani Jubilee OBT.

I find all the advantages of the "vintage American" sound to be present in my modern Borgani tenors, with the bonus of modern mechanism.

 

@BrianMitchellBrody This makes sense. I'm not sixty, but I was blessed to have owned a fair number of horns and have a saxophone shop nearby for a number of years.

I grew up playing on an Armstrong Alto, (Old) Conn Tenor and a American Selmer Soprano As first horns of their respective voice. The I have played

Alto: Yamaha 62, Conn 6m, Conn 28m, Conn Transitional, Buescher Aristocrat (Silver Plate), Selmer Mk VI (with low A), Selmer Balanced Action, B&S Medusa, King Marigaux

Tenor: American Selmer, B&S CJS, Buescher TH&C, Barone, Dolnet Artist, Conn 10m, Yamaha 875 & Custom, Yanagisawa T880, Couf Superba 1, Selmer Super Balanced Action, Selmer Cigar Cutter, Selmer Balanced Action, Selmer Mk VI & VII, Cannonball (older and newer), Ishimori

The soprano list is smaller consisting of 1 Yamaha, the Selmer and a Keilwerth Couf Superba II.

I think the majority of question revolves around the whether you like the ergonomics of the horn and the comfort with it belong you sound like you want to sound. Example, I loved and I mean loved the Buescher TH&C, but I have a habit of darkening up the sound of a horn. Well that horn doesn't help if you want a brighter or more middle of the round sound. The ergonomics were fine to me. The SBA on the other hand was more flexible for me; and I know it was the SBA I was playing at the time. My current tenor has that flexibility as well so, even though it is modern, I think it is based on the specific horn. So no, you don't need a VI. You need the horn that helps you be more you whether it is modern or vintage is more about where you find that and the bells and whistles.

 

The oldest sax I've had is a 1925 King, I've had Selmer Modele 26, Mark VI, Mark VII, an old "fireworks" Conn, a Pan American of unknown probably 40s-50s vintage, 80s Couf, 80s Grassi, Yamaha and MacSax.

The modern horns all have better ergos, and better intonation. Tone varies from horn to horn, Couf was my favorite, but that's a matter of personal taste. I'm playing a Mac and Yamaha now.

Insights and incites by Notes

 

Well it isn't the first time I've discussed my brand (Kohlert) with other owners and they said the same thing. The Kohlert is a bigger bore horn and it takes more air period to fill it up.

That is my experience anyway. Same thing with feeling the airstream inside your sax while playing. Some people are just more sensitive to small changes.

 

I hear you regarding playing a big bore horn - the Borgani Jubilee is similar in that regard. Just as you likely searched to find a mouthpiece best suited for your other horn, select a different mouthpiece to best complement your Kohlert.

 

+1 and +1. My B&S sounds great with any piece, though some are too bright for what is already a bright horn. My Klum Acoustimer suits it best.

My Kohlert Bixley takes INSANE amounts of air and focus, though the tone's worth it. If there is a piece out there that'd make it easier to blow while keeping intonation, I haven't found it ... yet! (Cue the Holiday GAS.....)

 

Big shocker here....vintage.
Why? - character.
Character in tone, in look, in construction for sure.
As an engineer i bond with and appreciate design and construction over efficiency of design.
A trumpet player before finding my way to the sax, i started with a super shiny Yamaha Custom Z that I loved...until I learned my way around trumpetmaster (now defunct trumpet version of SOTW) and ended up with 16 or so vintage horns, my favorites were from ’32-‘54.
I went into sax on the inexpensive route first and thought i would go modern, kinda did at first with the MKVII (‘82) but then when i got my first Conn that was the end of that.

The only thing i would say +1 for modern, for me, is a low A bari to do the funk/TOP type percussive stuff.

 

this is a great topic for discussion. I've had many vintage and modern horns. Probably close to 40. I dearly loved some of the vintage saxes but end end up playing mainly modern. The one Horn I really miss was Super 20 alto. I'm pleasantly surprised to see so many positive comments about B&S here. That is the one modern horn that sounds a bit like the king saxophones.

... The only thing i would say +1 for modern, for me, is a low A bari to do the funk/TOP type percussive stuff.

I agree. In fact, I would say the comment is valid for baritone and soprano as well. (So many improvements in the modern Sopranos)

 

I have settled on what you would call "vintage" saxes in that my alto is a 1950 Selmer SBA, and my tenor a Conn 10M. I don't generally think of my Selmer as a "vintage" sax, but since it is 70 years old it must be. I am 3 years older that it is, that probably makes me "vintage" as well. In my repair trade I play test saxophones of all makes and ages and I don't "like" or "dislike" any of them after I get them playing their best. None are "good or bad" or "better or worse", they are just different with their own unique "voice" and "personality" (saxonality? )

I have come to believe that the instrument makers and saxophone players in the '20's, '30's, and early '40's were aiming for a different sound than what we are accustomed to today. The concept of what a saxophone sounds like was different in that era---especially in non-classical music. Mouthpieces and saxophone bores were designed with a certain sound in mind. I may be wrong, but I think generally speaking the earlier saxophones did not have the same level of "harmonicity" that modern saxophones have today. The notes didn't slot" as well to use a trumpet player's term. This can be both positive or negative depending upon how you look at it. The negative is that the player needs to be more "pro active" in lipping notes to play in tune, but the positive is that the notes can more easily be "bent" to achieve different stylistic effects.

 

I've owned several vintage horns - Bueschers and Martins and test played many more. I've played a few Conns that I really liked the sound of as well but the ergos just don't agree with me. I spend a lot more time playing my modern horns because once everything is weighed they just have the best combination of attributes for my playing ability and the type of playing I do.

It's not a matter of thinking one or the other is better or liking one over the other. It's just that the playing contexts I'm in most of the time are such that the modern horns work better for me. I think if I were just a hobbyist playing at home for my own enjoyment or maybe with a community band once a week I'd probably play my vintage horns more. Likewise if I were a true pro and on my horns 4, 5, 6 hours a day or more I'd likely get good enough that the challenges I have with the vintage horns as a semi-pro weekend-warrior type would be overcome.

 

You guys talk about modern B&S, I suppose, but I have an older model, Blue Label (not fully playable now, need an overhaul), and its tenon is huge: 28.9 mm compared to the typical 27.5 mm. Definitely a big sound.

 

Totally agree that the Blue Labels have a huge sound! I've owned two and they were tone monsters. They also could whisper and sub-tone effortlessly!

 

Well for anyone who knows me, or has ever visited my website, this answer will come as no surprise: vintage all the way baby! ?

I recently sold a modern bari--a B&S Medusa--to buy a vintage Couf. So now I am fully in the vintage horn camp. Why? For me it is all about the tone.

My recently-sold Medusa notwithstanding, I find most modern I have tried--alto, tenor, bari--all have the same tonal qualities. Yawn.... It's like they all come from the same factory... Oh hang on... Maybe they do???

Most of us don't know which factory made which stencil horn today. Many do come from the same factories. Does this influence the tone? I am not a bore-specialist, so I will let those of you who are discuss it amongst yourselves.

I will also let you discuss whether or not companies ordering the stencils really have much say into how their horns are designed beyond some simple cosmetics and keywork. Do they have input into the bore design? Is it unique to them, and them alone?

For the most part I don't hear much of a difference between the P. Mauriets, Cannonballs, Trevor James, and Seawind horns that I have tried.

The Yamahas are a breed to themselves, and all sound the same horn to horn. They're nice, but... I don't want to sound exactly the same as everyone else. Where is the individuality?

The new Selmers? Well, I haven't found many that I am overly fond of. A couple of Reference horns have peaked my interest, but most have not. The Series II and III... Yawn.

So for my playing $$, it circles back to vintage. I love the unique sound of my vintage horns, and what they can do. My Hohner President couldn't be more different from my Mark VI if you tried. My Olds Super couldn't be further away from my Kohlert. My Committee III bari is light years different from my Couf. And so on, and so on... Each has its own unique voice and personality.

As for ergos, let's not forget that during the height of saxophonmania, 100 years ago, everyone was playing horns that players are complaining about: They are too difficult to play fast. The keys are too hard press down. The key placement is hard to master.... Etc. Etc..... Well it didn't stop the greats of the day like this guy.

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As for ergos, let's not forget that during the height of saxophonmania, 100 years ago, everyone was playing horns that players are complaining about: They are too difficult to play fast. The keys are too hard press down. The key placement is hard to master.... Etc. Etc..... Well it didn't stop the greats of the day like this guy.

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Spot on ; another, more modern, example of a player, Sal Nistico, obviously not hampered by his supposedly un-ergonomic Conn 10M

Fantastic concert by a fantastic band, BTW. Listen to the whole concert, filmed by the great BBC.