well I'm watchin' ya'

 

I like new innovations. Especially since there have been very few innovations in the saxophone world the last decades. So I'm eager to watch your video.
Still I have a feeling that your innovation is some kind of self leveling pad, which always seem to have a bit of a spongy feel to it. A perfectly sealed pad by a top notch repair tech will have a much firmer and nicer touch to it, than a self leveling pad. So I'd probably never install one on any professional or vintage saxophone to be honest.
But... A self leveling pad might be a good way to repair student saxophones that aren't worth the time and effort to repad otherwise. That is if your pads are cheap enough and is significantly faster to install with no leaks whatsoever.
Also quality and longevity of the pads will matter a lot!
Do you need 100% level toneholes for perfect seat?

 

Any sponginess will be down to the synthetic material as the rest of my pad mechanism is metal on metal, with no "damper" or similar (Codera integrated such into his design). So it's just down to finding the right sealing material, and thickness, to give a similar feel to the old style pads. I did consider leather, but where else in the modern world is leather still used to seal anything? No, it needs updating for sure, and we have such an abundance of material there's sure to be one that's best. I have piles of samples to work through, one of the things that takes time especially as I have to cut (stamp) each test seal out myself presently.

Don't forget a newly made sax could do away with the weight of the key cups (you'll see why in the video) and so this may be attractive to buyers, but I do appreciate you may not wish to cut off your MkVI cups. That's why my system is being made to fit into key cups with no modification as well. So you don't have to alter anything. But I'm totally with it that folks don't like change much, especially after 150 years. That's why we're all still riding horses, right?

Tru-Seal's pads use neoprene, a fairly tough material, easily tougher than leather? That's not to say I'll go the same way ultimately but I'm aware of the need for longevity. Although, at 2 minutes to change a worn pad for a new one it's not such a chore.

Your tone holes need to be as level as they should be for leather. It may be possible to use a softer or thicker sealing material to account for tone hole unevenness but how would you set a measurement for this? It's impossible. And to claim upfront it will work every time would be a nonsense, so I won't do that. What should happen at an overhaul point is that the tech should spot uneven tone holes and level them, whatever type of pads are going in.

 

about the “ sponginess” I have the distinct feeling that many people say they can feel it but I never had that feeling with the totptone pads (and if there is any give it will probably be from te pivoting elastic material rather than the neoprene itself) , I wonder if this is another thing that people feel when they know there is a synthetic pad installed. I’d be very curious to hear if anyone would conduct a test where the tester has a headphone absorbing sound ( because THAT I can definitely hear) to see if people can actually tell the type of pad only by the feeling the have through the fingers.

Anyway, In my opinion given the incredible range of materials that can be used in the space age era, holding on to the fact that leather is the best material to do something like this is going against the notion of materials progress.

I am sure that all things aside, innovation ( new innovation is a tautology, if you allow me a joke!) meets very often resistance.

Shellack, Leather and cork are certainly materials which were the best for the 19th century ( and they were very old even then) when the saxophone was invented but I believe they can be improved upon the question is whether improving upon this would bring advantages.

Yes, we could argue that lignum vitae was used in mechanics in the ’20 still but we no longer do..

 

I've amended the starter post so SOTW members can post here as they wish.

(Edited to remove reference to resolved issue - SteveS)

 

Thanks, and all is well. Actually, cafesaxophone is run by our very own Pete Thomas.

Thanks for your post,
Steve

 

@milandro - certainly some of the thin synthetic foam sponge materials I've tested give a remarkable reduction in percussive noise, compared to old style pads, when hitting the tone hole. Bear in mind a traditional leather pad is 4mm thick and mine are 3mm+ of metal mechanism with only a 0.5-1.00mm thick sealing ring or disc, that's a lot to ask of such a thin seal. You then have to assume that this is because they "must" be softer and more spongey in order to absorb the shock and accompanying sound. But that's not always true. Specific materials designed to seal AND absorb shock are with us right now... in fact they're in a pile right by me, just arrived from a global leading American company.

 

I am sure that materials have improved since the invention of toptone and again I am pretty sure that the percussive noise is not due to the neoprene but tho the toptone pivoting mechanism which lifts the pad from the keycup creating a air surface under chis then makes the pad sound as it does.

follow this link....

video on youtube

 

David, this sounds wonderful. I really look forward to hearing where this goes.
Thank you in advance

 

My "work in progress" video now uploaded. Don't forget to click the settings cog if you need to improve your YouTube viewing quality. Here you go...

 

Thanks for sharing. Good work so far.
Looks very much like the other self leveling pads but with a magnet. (Not ment as critique, only as a note)
I wish you the best of luck.
If you need some input from techs to test your pads, I'm willing to try on a student horn.
Looks like there are some improvements yet to be made.

 

in many a way a different approach as compered to anything that I’ve seen before.

Magnets, to my knowledge were only ever used (and not in this way) to replace springs in the Matit flute (made of carbon fibre and because of that using traditional springs would have been very difficult)

I can see an area of complication when it comes to the nut regulating the height or rather the depth of the pad in the keypad , this will certainly leave quite some room for improvement.

Even once you address this point I am quite sure that this system would be rather difficult to make popular among the techs.

Having said this I cannot help imagining that you get in touch with Leopold Kondratov.

Kondratov made and makes a system akin to the Codera system with the exception that the pivoting keys are all over the saxophone.

His system can pivot freely OR it can be locked in place if you so wish.

I think that if you would find a way to put the two heads together there would be room for developing your system into his, however , would this stil convince makers and techs?

We shall see

 

from this article

https://www.sonic.de/index.php?eID=dumpFile&t=f&f=8564&token=d2aa66a4cb612068a126fe21ed62017afe05e968

two drawings showing the kondratov pivoting and lock system

 

@milandro - could you expand on the complication when it comes to the nut regulating the height or rather the depth of the pad in the keypad please?

This doesn't rule out key height adjustment by traditional means, but it may be useful for adjusting, say, palm key touch heights by using the screw to move the pad in/out and thus the palm key touch. It's also good for fine adjustment of interconnecting keys in the main stack.

As I say in the video, I'm going to try a fixed (clinched) nut pressed into the backing disc so that no nuts are needed other than perhaps one to attach a resonator finally.

 

I don't really want the pad to be locked into place. I have thought about this but it's difficult to engineer into my project and perhaps unnecessary other than to stop the pad rotating. Once self-levelled they only move if disturbed but not whilst being played. A purely mechanical pivot would be loose when not locked in whilst the pad is self-levelling, but my strong magnet holds the pad tight to it with no accidental movement.

 

You could stop rotation by cutting a groove in the magnet and having a corresponding ridge manufactured on the nut so that they interlock with each other. --edit-- How you do it would affect the self-levelling though. I just threw the thought out there then started thinking of how it could go wrong. It's eye-opening when you start looking for solutions to one problem only to create another in the process. I wish you luck on your invention. I agree it is time to move on from 150 year old technology and find a simpler more elegant solution.

 

I think that the nuts system that you have shown in the provisional video are unlikely to stay in position ( height control)

adopting another different type of nut ( as you say in the video) may do this.

Is the keycup, strictly speaking, really needed to make this system work? I understand that if you are using it on an already in existence saxophone this would be easier but if anyone where to produce a new sax with this system they may do completely away with the keycup altogether since every pad has a metal backing to assure rigidity en is virtually floating free

 

The two current nuts are tightened each side of the disc but could vibrate free, hence loctite can be used to finally lock them. I have the correct grade of tool removable loctite.

The key cup can be removed to a 10mm disc, for mounting, plus any pearl touch, or fashioned into a claw or letter or other shape. The screw could also be inverted and affix to the bare key cup arm. The magnet then fixes to the backing disc. Not so good for adjusting as the screw remains in the instrument, but it may work. My Patent drawings include this possibility.

 

My Patent drawings include this possibility.

you have already patented (already issued?) everything I hope?

Is it O.K. to Publish Your Life Sciences Invention Before Filing for a Patent?

Particularly in the life sciences arena, there is a tendency to reveal innovations and publish findings as soon as possible. These instincts stem from a scientist’s academic roots where there is a not...

www.finnegan.com

Patent First, Publish Later: How Not to Ruin Your Chances of Winning a Patent

www.science.org

 

If my American and international friends on SOTW would prefer not to know more about this invention please lobby a Mod and get the thread deleted.
Cafesaxophone.com, being a UK forum, holds precedence for me.

 

Patent applied for in the UK. This gives 12 months protection before the Patent is agreed (or declined).
With any Patent of course the only protection is whereby you sue the person stealing your invention.

 

Not sure how it is in the UK, but in the US, the Patent Office is so overwhelmed that every single patent is rejected upon first application. If you're working with an Attorney that deals in Intellectual Property, they probably already went through this with you. Over here, the attorneys know this, and will typically give a less detailed description for the first application. Once they get some feedback from the Patent Office, they write up a more detailed second application with appropriate adjustments. Bottom line, don't get discouraged. This is a very interesting project.

 

well, it is your thing, but generally speaking even when applied it is better not to discuss anything until it is granted

 

One of the reasons I'm "going to press" now is that I won't have thought of every problem players and repairers would.

I don't want to spend tens of thousands marketing and manufacturing a product which won't work, notwithstanding convention will suppress innovation.

Keeping it secret would be nice but so is taking on board folk's reservations so as to come up with a better product.

On the one hand nobody has ever come up with a better system than leather/felt/card which has been taken up by the masses, so should I resign myself to this end? On the other hand there really does have to be a better design than one 150 years old, so I'll keep going...

 

This is a very interesting development, but I have a concern as a player. This applies to any self-leveling pad system, not just this one. One of the things most disliked by musicians is a change in feel. A positive, repeatable action is quite desirable. Seeing how the pads close in your video, I would be concerned that occasionally the pads could move about, and change the way it feels when closing the key. This would be a non-starter for me, speaking as a player. (As a person who likes mechanical design, this is very interesting however!)

If you can solve the movement issue somehow, so that the pads, once they are set, do not move unless somehow released (perhaps for readjustment) this has a chance to succeed.

I'd like to hear someone play the prototype horn... just to be certain that the pads do their job.

 

The pads only move in the video because I'm moving them or they are self-levelling when first closed. Otherwise the pads are very stiff in the magnets and don't budge.
Both the magnet and screw happen to have microscopically rough surfaces which give sufficient friction not to move. I don't think copious spit will act as a sufficient lubricant to change this.

I have an offer to test it from a highly esteemed pro player you'll all know.

Once it's where I'd like it to be I may well take up his offer.

 

Very nice approach David!

Some thoughts: do you know what exactly on the TopTone system is patented?
I remember vaguely that Wolf Codera, who comes from my small home city, got a lot of trouble with their lawyers and had to stop his Resoblade system therefore.

Are the neodym magnets not as corrosive as magnets are normally?

The thinner and less flexible the pad material is, the more even and flat the toneholes have to be, which is not the rule even with newer instruments, I think.

 

Very nice approach David!

Some thoughts: do you know what exactly on the TopTone system is patented?

this should be the links, last year the Inventor Passed away.


Rienk Smeding Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5900562.html

US6265649B1 - Wind instrument - Google Patents

 

Very cool stuff. I hope this succeeds! I’ve got a student horn from a friend needing a repad.
I was going to order some cheapo pads and a glue gun to try my hand but this would be a lot more fun.

I could never understand why synthetics haven’t replaced leather yet.

 

I could never understand why synthetics haven’t replaced leather yet.

I think, in part this is due to the sector being impervious to change, watever “problem” there was with the toptone (or other systems before!) could have been overcome IF the perception was that the sector was willing to receive this favorably.

Even Jim Schmidt (whose innovations , new or old ... ...see comment above on innovations (a joke!) ) got involved in pads and hasn’t made the breakthrough which it probably could have had if anyone would have been really interested in change.

Self leveling JS Gold flute pad closing sound

 

The Schmidt saxophone has always intrigued me. You have to love a self leveling pad.
Admittedly I haven’t really read why gold/silver coated leather was preferable to an airtight, waterproof synthetic that could be speced with a durometer that mimics a leather/felt pad but it always seemed like the next evolution should be synthetic.

 

The Schmidt saxophone has always intrigued me. You have to love a self leveling pad.
Admittedly I haven’t really read why gold/silver coated leather was preferable to an airtight, waterproof synthetic that could be speced with a durometer that mimics a leather/felt pad but it always seemed like the next evolution should be synthetic.

Jim's pads still use woven felt innards with a very thin metallic cover which gives them their air-tightness. There's no leather under the thin cover that I could see when I disected one. I'll have another look... just did... there's something under the metallic cover, very thin, could indeed be leather.

I did think of using a durometer and simply find a material which mimics a leather pad's Shore measurement, but it's not so simple. Open cell, closed cell, skinned, backed, moisture resistant, bacteria resistant, impact absorbing, thickness, neoprene, silicone, EPDM, mixed, nitrile, poron, polyethylene... there are as many combinations as there are mouthpieces and reeds...

 

I am a piano tech and have observed that piano manufacturers are very set in there ways, even so evolution is slowly happening. I created a percussion instrument and attempted to set up a supply chain, packaging and marketing. It was too much so tried to sell the idea. Learned a lot. Mainly that I'm an idea guy not a entrepreneur. You're idea is more mainstream than mine. I wish you great success.

 

Takes at least 18 months to be granted in the UK, perhaps longer. I think the Description was four pages, same for the Drawings. It's the Claims which may be more detailed.