Standard refacing, except to change a tip opening or the like, only makes the same piece ever so slightly different but not necessarily better. Revoicing a piece by altering the baffle or the chamber can have dramatic results, though.

Buy a more expensive piece like a Johannes Gerber, 10MFAN, Ted Klum, or Boston Sax Shop. If you're looking for alto, then you've already identified one of the best pieces made in the Ted Klum NY piece.

 

Just play the Meyer. I’ve had two off the shelf since my NY Meyer was stolen along with my SBA alto years ago.
I really couldn’t tell any difference between vintage and new.

 

There is refacing and then rebuilding. Some pieces can be made to play, sound and respond fantastic. It depends on how close the chamber is to the better versions. I rebuilt over a thousand meyers and yes, they can be made to be amazing and you save money. Unfortunately, you cant do it with all pieces but if you want a great Meyer like piece you are in luck. Its more profitable to sell an expensive piece but its not always necessary.

 

My feeling is that having wasted a lot of time and money on vintage pieces, and then having work done on them, it seems best just to go for one of the better pieces if you can. The money can end up being the same and you can be sure its good.

Best if you can try them out though, given the cost. But I realise the prices of some of the top end pieces are beyond the budget of many people.

Having a pieces worked on by someone like Phil will improve the piece. He has done a few for me, making them more responsive up and down the horn, etc. But, try one of his own pieces and they are a joy from the start. A slightly different level.

As Whaler says above though, there are stock pieces about which are very good. I have had a fantastic Vandoren for years. But, again I would always suggest its best to be able to try a few out.

 

Get an Aizen Jazz master and your problems will be solved.

 

Phil didn't mention his bespoke Le Son (inspired by Meyer) which I thought was fabulous when I played alto.
Cost is probably equivalent to buying a Babbitt Meyer, shipping to Phil, his labor, return shipping... and you know you will get a perfectly crafted piece that plays beautifully.
10mfan offers a variety of perfectly-crafted pieces that are unique designs if you like the demos.
Matt Marantz makes a Meyer-influenced New York Legacy that is fantastic.
And of course Ted Klum is a master in crafting his vision of an improved Meyer.
Then the mass-machined D'Addario Jazz Select HR pieces are more affordable, well-made, and have many fans.
My point is, as mentioned above, you have a large variety of choices but no guarantee you will love what you buy. You need to try them because in my experience, even those made by the BEST will sound different to you with your voice on your horn.
Finally, if your current piece is not terribly out of whack and has a flat table and reasonable facing, you can probably sound any way you wish with more work.

 

Thanks. I think the Custom Meyer is as good as Le Son. Ive been making it for over a decade. The thing about it is you can buy aby dog of a standard Meyer and have it rebuilt for the cost of a reface abd have a piece that will stand up to any 400 dollar piece. In a short perfect world you could do that with links but its just not the same. Meyers…yes. Btw. Im not trolling for what ri. Reface work on s a tiny part if my business. The good thing for alto players is they can end up with a great setup for a modest price on this one.

 

Consider the reface of an irreplacebale piece comparred to the reface of a replacable piece. If you invest in the reface of a 'perhaps vintage' piece that cannot be easily replaced by comparrison to a readily avialble piece you can have modified - again. Anyone who has lost a lover will know what I mean. There are more than a few who refuse to employ mouthpieces that cannot be readily replaced. A number of 'previously avialable' Theo Wanne pieces are 'no longer available', IF one of these pieces were your ever reliable mouthpiece that was destroyed or stolen the chances of you finding a replacement would be minimal. BUT - a majority of sax players "move on" from those pieces they may have once held dear. If you have a piece that serves you by all means have it perfected - but - don't expect to find another.

 

Refacing isn't magic. You can have a mouthpiece altered to perfection... and it still may not be right for you. Best to find one that works right off the bat; returning, trading and/or selling what doesn't work right off the bat. Plenty of fish in the sea, so to speak.

 

Second "Refacing isn't magic" as mentioned above. Here are my experiences on re-facing (or re-balance).

On Soprano, I sent my Selmer Super Session for re-balance several years ago. The fee almost cost $200 (including shipping), which is even higher than the MP itself (the SS itself only cost about $160 pre-tax at that time). Honestly after getting the re-balance piece, I can feel the difference, but not the improvement. It sits in my drawer. I am sure that the re-balance piece is a great piece, but it just didn't work for me. I stick to the stock Yani piece for a while until I bought the Drake Son of Slant which I really like.

On Alto, I sent my Meyer 5M for re-balance because it used to give annoying chirp on dry reed (especially when the reed goes from wet to dry when you take a short rest during practice). After re-balance, the chirp issue is still there, but I quite like the tone improvement at the second register and higher. After I started to use Legere reed, the chirping issue is gone since then. So I stick to this piece for quite a while, until I recently bought the Theo wanne NY BROS 2 which I like better.

If you really plan to try re-facing and you live in US, I recommend MOJO. A few months ago I sent my Otto Link Tone edge tenor piece to him since I took it for granted that most modern Link HR are defective out of the factory. MOJO sent me a 5 minutes analysis video showing quite details, and he basically told me that it is actually a quite good piece and the table is smooth (not very common for a stock Link piece). He said he may further improve it but has implied enough that it is good by itself right now, and he left the decision to me (instead of persuading me). I ended up only paying the analysis fee. I took a look on his website and found his refacing fee is really good (less than $100). So if in the future I really want to rebalance another one, I will send it to him because you will know what is wrong with your piece from an engineering point of view and won't need to spend over one hundreds (or even 200 in my case for soprano) on the re-work.

 

Second "Refacing isn't magic" as mentioned above. Here are my experiences on re-facing (or re-balance).

No it's not magic, but with a good refacer it can seem like it. I'm sorry your experience wasn't as good as could have been but there are people out there who seem like magic. Bill Wrathall was on such. He moonlighted making and repairing lenses for ealing Studio, so what he didn't know about the subtleties of curves was not worth knowing.

John van Wie was another, his improvement to my stock meyer 6M was unbelievable. And then there are some unsung heroes. Years ago I was given a Van Doren to try out. I said i wasn't quite happy, so it was rushed back into a backroom, came out a bit later and a tried again. Still not quite thre so it went back into the mysterious room. This happebed about 5 or 6 times until it finally came out, I blew it and it really seemed like magic.

(I know what you're all thinking, nobody actually changed a thing)

 

I think the value proposition for refacing depends on how much the mouthpiece cost to begin with, and how close the piece already is to what you want, with the idea being - the less you have to alter, the better. In your case you want a classic Meyer, so the good news is that's been done successfully many times over by the mouthpiece technicians here on this forum.

Do you already own the modern Meyer, or can get one for cheap? The best luck I ever had with achieving the "magic" Meyer sound was with an off the shelf Meyer 6MM that I had refaced by Phil-Tone sometime around 2010. At that time, I would occasionally try boutique Meyer replicas as I came across them, but I admittedly did not do an exhaustive comprehensive comparison like some others have.

 

2010?
Dang I am getting old!

and I agree that refacing is not a panacea. However, its often a piece can be dramatically improved. With Meyers its especially so if chamber mods are done.

 

The reed got wetter

 

Or the Vandoren house red kicked in.

 

Wondering about others experiences and which route to take. Just as an example is it better getting your factory Meyer refaced or spending a lot of dough on a Ted Klum vintage Meyer NY replica?

Maybe start with what you're hoping to achieve. Do you currently own a Meyer that you feel isn't meeting your needs? If so, explain what you hope to change via refacing or purchasing a Klum. Or are you 100% "in the market" for a new alto mouthpiece (i.e., you don't currently have an alto mouthpiece)? Maybe you just have GAS? (no judgment)

I vacillate on this issue of "vintage vs. refaced." To me, nothing compares to the feel, smell, taste, look, etc. of vintage hard rubber. Everything modern - with few exceptions - feels either too plastic-y or too space-agey. The trouble with that is vintage HR mouthpieces (Link on tenor, Meyer on the alto, for me) are very expensive. So, it's a value calculation for me just like anyone else. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking that vintage mouthpieces ALWAYS play better than modern ones - they don't. I've played a couple vintage NY Meyers that were dogs. I've played a few modern Meyers that TALK.

There is refacing and then rebuilding. I rebuilt over a thousand meyers and yes, they can be made to be amazing and you save money. Unfortunately, you cant do it with all pieces but if you want a great Meyer like piece you are in luck.

Because rarely, if ever, do I see Phil touting his own work in threads such as these (very classy), let me say I asked Phil to rebuild a modern Meyer for me in his "Custom Meyer" fashion and it plays so well and true to a vintage NY Meyer that I sold my actual vintage Meyer. Nowadays (even moreso than, say, 5 years ago) there are a LOT of quality manufacturers (Phil, 10MFan, Klum, Wanne, etc.) that are doing exciting things that I don't know why anyone wouldn't at least look first at them before throwing down big dollars on something vintage.

Personally, I'm still looking for a modern alto mouthpiece that has perfected the feel and tone of a vintage NY Meyer Bros. alto mouthpiece. Lots of great NY Meyer and HR Link (tenor) options out there.

Don't forget, though: you're still the tone.

 

Phil, 10MFan, Klum, Wanne, etc.
I don't know why anyone wouldn't at least look first at them before throwing down big dollars on something vintage.

It took me too long to realise how much money you can waste on vintage pieces. eg Gregory, Links, Selmer Soloists.

 

Refacing a classic mouthpiece (Otto Link Tone Edge, Selmer Soloist, Meyer) is still the better, more cost effective way to go. And the vintage HR mouthpieces just have a warmer sound. Of course, you have to use one of the good refacers, and right now, I’m loving Adam Niewood’s work. But there are several others.

And remember, you don’t need to start with a Slant. Even Tone Edges from the 1980s used better hard rubber and are great candidates for a reface.

And if you end up with a good one — never sell. I sold a Great Neck tenor piece refaced by the late Jon Van Wie and regret it to this day.

 

Refacing a classic mouthpiece (Otto Link Tone Edge, Selmer Soloist, Meyer) is still the better, more cost effective way to go.

No it isn't. It can very well be the absolute worst expenditure in terms of overall cost and potential loss. You buy an expensive vintage mouthpiece. You pay to alter that expensive vintage mouthpiece. It ends up not being to your liking. You sell it after months of trying at further loss.

It's also a most wasteful practice. Not like these mouthpieces are being made any longer. But hey... altering vintage mouthpieces was never the topic for this discussion. It's about altering modern offerings and tweaking them. Also ultimately a waste of time, effort and money in my view. Just find something that works right off the bat. Again, plenty of fish in the sea.

 

Selmer still uses the same hard rubber. Links from the late 70s id agree with. Not because of the rubber but the design was diff than modern TEs. Rubber was about the same in the 80s as now. There was a period in the mid to late 80s with wuite poor rubber. It makes no real sonic difference but it feels like you are facing a car tire. Black, heavy and a bit sticky feeling on sandpaper. They can make good pieces but its no fun to work on them. Modern tone edges can be good but they vary a lot and will still be very dark. I gave up on them and had my own mold made.

 

Selmer still uses the same hard rubber.

Then why do the current Selmer mouthpieces not sound as warm and good as the vintage Short Shank pieces? And why do the latter sell for top dollar on ebay, especially the ones in the rarer, more open facings (D, E, F, etc.), if people can just go out and buy a new one off the shelf for $100 or $200?

No offense, but this statement doesn't make sense to me, and I highly doubt it.

 

double-post

 

If you own or have tried a mouthpiece that you “like but not quite love”, then customization might bring it home (or better).

It might still not quite get all the way there in which case you and your refacer will have another building block in your relationship - much in the same way you might build a relationship with a private instructor.

 

Wouldn’t refacing fix any imperfections with a stock Meyer therefore improving the mouthpiece? Stock Meyers are not hand finished so sometimes there are imperfections. I once had a 6 where the table was so uneven the reed was visibly on a slant. Wouldn’t refacing also even the tip rail making a better seal with the reed?

 

Wouldn't refacing fix any imperfections with a stock Meyer therefore improving the mouthpiece? Stock Meyers are not hand finished so sometimes there are imperfections. I once had a 6 where the table was so uneven the reed was visibly on a slant. Wouldn't refacing also even the tip rail making a better seal with the reed?

Yes.

 

Thanks Skeller. They are designed and finished differently.

 

So did you do some sort of a chemical breakdown/assessment of the old versus the new Selmer pieces to concluce that the rubber was 100 percent "the same" in both? I think the new pieces seem more plastic-like, and do not smell like rubber like the old ones do. Still highly doubtful of your claim.

 

Feel free to doubt.

I dont need you to believe me.

 

I am only interested in getting any imperfections fixed with a reface. Like I said before flattening table and even out the tip rail. Is that worth it? I don’t want to open it up more or change the sound dramatically. Is that when refacing can “go wrong”? Maybe someone wants their mouthpiece “opened up” going from a 6 to a 7 and not liking the result.

 

I am only interested in getting any imperfections fixed with a reface. Like I said before flattening table and even out the tip rail. Is that worth it? I don't want to open it up more or change the sound dramatically. Is that when refacing can "go wrong"? Maybe someone wants their mouthpiece "opened up" going from a 6 to a 7 and not liking the result.

You'll only ever find out through your own personal experience whether it's worth it. Changes in tone and response through the process of refacing is usually noticeable. Changing the tip opening can have both positive and negative consequences which are not entirely predictable because both individuals involved have different reeds, embouchures, etc. There are no guarantees or absolutes.

 

I'd offer another suggestion; keep posting until you have Marketplace privileges here at SOTW. There are usually many pieces that fall into both these categories listed for sale at very reasonable prices. If you choose wisely you can often purchases pieces try them for a few days or weeks and sell the ones you don't like for pretty much what you paid for them.

 

Thanks! This is a super suggestion!

 

I’ll wait until then...

 

Opinions are not facts. I think of a fact as something that is demonstrably true, such as chemical/structural analysis of some material, performed multiple times with the same result.

There is also the concept of an "informed opinion" - something that is perhaps not demonstrably true, but very likely to be true based on the opinion holder's experience with similar situations. That leads us to "uninformed opinions", which are opinions that are based on rumor and fantasy.

The idea that "old rubber" makes a better sounding and playing mouthpiece than "new rubber" falls in that last category. Just because lots of people hold that opinion, and state it loudly and firmly, doesn't change its nature - it's the product of fertile imagination and the inability to think logically. And perhaps a hope that one hasn't spent too much money foolishly...