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Lets attempt to straighten out who makes what!!

19K views 106 replies 28 participants last post by  jbtsax  
#1 ·
All too often in the ongoing debate of the Chinese and Taiwanese made saxophones, (and lets throw in the Japanese, German, French, and EVERYBODY else) I hear that brand X is made at the same factory as Major Big Name Brand Y. However then somebody has to go and disagree and state that it is not. This is where I see all the confusion is starting is that there is no place where facts are given.

This situation is not all that different then the stencil horns of the 20's and 30's. You could buy a wulitzer or pan am sax and it could be a conn, buescher, or martin.

But in the past you always had the major name factory to refer back to for it's identification.

I know at NAMM many people are seeing several different brands - but they all come out of only a few different factories.



HERE IS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW...........

Who are these factories pumping out multiple brands of saxes? Do they have company names?

Who can provide names of the actual factories making saxophones today? (Please do not include who they make them for)

From that list I will then try to start a separate discussion of what factory is making what horn.

Maybe this could lead to a better understanding of who's sax is similar to who's.
Thoughts?

Charlie
 
#2 ·
I don't see this thread going too far as every sax company wants to protect their own interest. I'm sure you remember when Barones were made at the same factory that made Mauriats....I might be incorrect, but I think **** hit the fan when Mauriat found our that Barone publicized that information. Please feel free to correct me on this if I am incorrect.
 
#6 ·
Gary has a picture of Pandoras Box that should go right about here
 
#7 ·
Yes, this worm-can is large and deep and full of secrets -- and probably bad smells if you dig too far down.

I think part of the problem will be that our understanding of what constitutes a "factory" is not universally accepted.

(I also recall that this has been a lively topic here at least since 2003 with very little progress made -- but hey, go for it!
 
#8 ·
Charlie, actually much of this information is scattered throughout the forum on previous posts. The problem, of course, would be trying to assemble it all. I am not averse to what you are suggesting, so please don't misunderstand my post, but I'll just pass along to you, if the response is less than you had hoped for, it's not because of you, or maybe even the topic, but that many likely just don't have the heart to go into this again. It gets really convoluted and confusing. Best of luck, though. I think an authoritative and comprehensive listing would be interesting.
 
#9 ·
I hear ya Gary!

I too have seen this info scattered and the wars it has started here on SOTW. It just kills me that many would rather fight the war (or sit back and pop the popcorn and enjoy the bloodshed :) ) then plot a solution.

I just for the life of me can't understand why it is so difficult in this "internet world" to be able to determine who is actually making saxophones overseas. It cant be THAT big of a secret.

We could probably find out what the president of any country flushed down their toilet easier than finding out the answer to my question.

If I was a a wealthy saxophonist who wanted to make my own brand of saxophone and hire a plant to make the parts for me - would I have to arrange a secret meeting in a dark alley to get the contact info from some double saxophone agent? It really seems like it.

I remember years ago learning that if the connecting bands on a saxophone where of a certain style it was pretty much a given that it came from the Jupiter Plant which at the time was the biggest source of foreign saxophones.

Now we have a handful of similar companies and nobody knows who they are???

If nobody knows who the factories are - how can anybody say with any certainty that a certain horn came from a certain plant.

Funny part is - I am not mad, I don't want to open a can of worms, I dont have some sadistic plan to take over the saxophone empire of the world ...... I just want to know who are the people making saxophones - not the guys who are just stamping their names on them.

I don't see that as a world altering question to ask......am i wrong?

Charlie
 
#10 ·
If I was a a wealthy saxophonist who wanted to make my own brand of saxophone and hire a plant to make the parts for me - would I have to arrange a secret meeting in a dark alley to get the contact info from some double saxophone agent? It really seems like it.
Nah . . . you would just have to click "send inquiry" to any one of these outfits: http://www.ttnet.net/search-bin/e_sourcing.jsp?list=products&find=Saxophones and then tell them what name you want to have them stamp on the horns.
 
#12 ·
Alright - so we see from this site Buck gave us:

Origin : Indonesia
Supplier : CV. Plastika Music
Business : Manufacture
...................................................................
Origin : China (mainland)
Supplier : Canexmusic
Business : OEM/ODM, Export, Manufacture
.................................................................
Origin : Taiwan
Supplier : Rare Hardware Co., Ltd.
Business : OEM/ODM, Export, Manufacture
................................................................
Origin : China (mainland)
Supplier : Jinan Xuqiu Musical Instrument Co., Ltd.
Business : OEM/ODM, Manufacture
..............................................................
Origin : China (mainland)
Supplier : The Ovler Company
Business : Manufacture
...............................................................
Origin : China (mainland)
Supplier : Guangzhou Melody Music Factory
Business : Export, Manufacture
...............................................................
Origin : China (mainland)
Supplier : hengshui newstar musical instrument co.,ltd
Business : OEM/ODM, Manufacture
..............................................................
Origin : China (mainland)
Supplier : Tide International Co., Ltd.
Business : Inpute, Export
.............................................................
Origin : Taiwan
Supplier : Unionsax Taiwan
Business : OEM/ODM, Export, Manufacture
..............................................................
Origin : Taiwan
Supplier : Delick International Co., Ltd.
Business : Service, Inpute, OEM/ODM, Export, Wholesale, Manufacture
..............................................................
 
#15 ·
Thats where I Would like to end up at - however This list of companies is longer than I thought. I am going to sleep on this and get a fresh start tomorrow.
 
#19 ·
This is a Bigggggggg! job.

I did this with Japanese guitars and it took a lot of time to get it right.

The Japanese guitars were mostly OEM made and there were rumors and this and that about who made what and hardly anyone involved at the OEM factories was speaking out and the Japanese on their guitar forums did not know much and were mostly just full of rumors.

I researched the Japanese OEM guitar factories as much as I could and then I had a rough idea of what guitar factory MAY have been involved at a particular time with a particular brand and then from there I got a bit of a handle on how the actual factory machines were making the guitars and I could ID the factory by looking at the interior of the guitar and all this became much clearer after a while as I classified all this into groups, very scientifically, like classifying sub insect species or something.

I could then match the factory to the guitar just by looking at the interior of the guitar.

Eventually I got it about 95% right with the well known brands and with about 5% still being a bit of a mystery especially with the lesser known brands.

It turned out that the rumors were exactly that, just rumors, and were so wrong it was laughable in a lot of cases.
After I did all this, some guitars actually went up in market value just based on what factory they were made in :shock:

With saxophones, someone would have to first have some concrete idea of what factory made what brand at what time and then look for similar traits of these saxes in other saxes based on how the factory tooling was likely to produce parts at that time and this can change as well if the factory changes to new tooling.
Taiwanese and Chinese saxophone parts could be coming from multiple sources which would make it a maze.

I've done this with Keilwerth and found a ST-90 series III part being manufactured in the Keilwerth factory.
The accepted version was that Amati made the ST-90 series III completely, but the parts were made by Keilwerth and then finished by Amati because I could ID the particular ST-90 series III part in a Keilwerth factory tour video.

Factory tour videos are sometimes helpful.

I've also done some classifying of Yamaha sax models and serial numbers based on bits and pieces of info.

Good Luck.
 
#21 ·
good luck with this! It is an impossible task, especially because there are many Chinese or Taiwanese trading companies who do not actually produce anything but source (around their part of the world ) manufacturers and sell to western companies horns with the logo on it which they ask to be applied. I personally know of a major Taiwanese company, with production facilities in Taiwan and China, which also buys from other Taiwanese companies and resells abroad under private label. Besides, even if you could determine that brand so and so is made by company so and so TODAY, there is no guarantee that it would be made by the same people TOMORROW since, come any change, the buying and trading company could switch to another maker.

In other words the only traceable lineage will always only be of those companies who actually own production facilities, any other trading company (because that is what they are) buying an outsourced horn and reselling it under their own name cannot possibly offer the guarantee that they will be forever offering saxophones made at the same plant , the same way, by the same people because they rely on a supplier whom they can only partially control (and I am taking of commercial control not quality control here).

On taiwan there are many many makers but even more companies which trade under their own name but make nothing or only something or are assemblers of horns made with outsourced parts. Multiply this 1000 times in China! Scouring Alibaba or Made in China will only give you the contacts of those companies seeking contact with the outside world and presenting themselves as makers, but you won't know much about the company at all, not even if you go there because you might be taken to the facilities where they make saxophones but you will have n way to understand if those facilities actually belong to the person who is showing you around or have been just borrowed for the occasion.


Someone that I know went to visit a Company on Taiwan a well known company which sells , among other things (!) , saxophones, they showed him a workshop where someone was polishing and fiddling around a baritone saxophone, which was an act to give themselves the credit of being " makers" which they are not, they are resellers .

In my view there is nothing wrong with buying from a local trading company or reseller whom you trust and whom you communicate well with, it will help you immensely if you can find such partner and I would encourage anyone seeking to do business with any Asian country to look for a partner whom understands you both at a language level and at a commercial level. Whomever has had anything to do with China and Taiwan knows that one of the most difficult thing is the language barrier, but that's not all, there is a real communication barrier when it comes to what we actually mean in a commercial sense even simply when we say " yes" or " no" (let alone more complex things!). One needs to have a local man who can put pressure the right way to keep standards up , check and re-check, and be prepared to understand the intricacies of continuously negotiating anything and re-negotiathing anything.

I know of many companies (not necessarily in the music business) which have someone on location who checks literally all the things that go into a container to be made exactly as agreed, and that, believe me, is not a " sine cura"!
 
#32 ·
In other words the only traceable lineage will always only be of those companies who actually own production facilities
And even that would not be enough. As I understand it, under the OEM system, there would be nothing stopping a company like this from "outsourcing" any or even all of the steps in the production process. The buyer would have no way of knowing.

R.

ps. the normal (noun) form is "sinecure"
 
#22 ·
seems like the sax companys would like to keep this info secret as does HP computers and Dell computers made in the same factory on the same assembly line in Juarez, Mexico just across the border from where i live.
I wonder if most saxes from the orient - india stripped down of any keys, rods etc would all look the same without the finishing touches on them

google saxophone mfg taiwan and you come up with this
http://taiwanreview.nat.gov.tw/ct.asp?xitem=24481&ctnode=128&mp=1

A Town Hitting the Right Note

Chang Lien-cheng (front right) started to make a saxophone after the only one his band possessed, pictured here, was damaged in a house fire. (Courtesy of Chang Lien-cheng Saxophone Museum)

Publication Date:08/01/2007
Byline:KELLY HER

A small town in Taiwan is striving to maintain its legacy of saxophone-making while using it to bring local prosperity.

A voice-over from an automobile TV commercial states: "There is a group of people in Houli; they not only play music, but also make musical instruments and enable people around the world to hear the sweet sound produced by the saxophones they make. A splendid city must be inhabited by a group of brilliant people ...."

This advertisement, first broadcast in late 2003, turned out to be a fine publicity stunt. Until then, Houli, an agricultural township in central Taiwan, had been known for little more than its flower and fruit plantations. Even in Taiwan few people knew about Houli saxophones. While the town appears to be an unlikely place for producing the instruments, it houses the largest cluster of saxophone makers on the island.

According to unofficial statistics, made-in-Taiwan saxophones account for one third of global production of the instrument, with an export value of NT$700 million (US$21 million) a year. Most of the instruments are manufactured on an OEM basis so many end-users are unaware of their Taiwanese origins.

The relationship between Houli and saxophones could be traced back to 1947, when a group of young music lovers, including Chang Lien-cheng, Chang Chi-pan and Chang Teng-hui, organized a jazz band and were often invited to perform at local events. At that time, musical instruments were luxuries and mostly imported from Japan. A house fire, however, later destroyed the only saxophone they had.

Out of his great passion for music, Chang Lien-cheng tried to find out how to make a saxophone. He spent the next three months taking the twisted and blackened instrument apart piece by piece--nearly 400 in all--and making meticulous drawings of each piece and the way they fitted together.

Subsequently, he took a strip of brass from under a sliding door in his home to make into saxophone keys and melted down an old silver coin to use as the soldering material. During the process, a brass bar rebounded and hit Chang in the right eye, blinding him in that eye.

Nevertheless Chang kept going and after three years of self-study and numerous tests, he completed Taiwan's first saxophone from scratch and successfully sold it to a musician from the Philippines. The deal was lucrative enough for Chang to start accepting apprentices and venture into saxophone manufacturing as a business.

Family Businesses

Over the years, Chang, who died in 1986, passed on his skills unselfishly to interested learners, and many went on to open their own factories. In the 1970s, business boomed and the 30-odd saxophone factories in Houli produced about 30,000 instruments a year.

Saxophones have four common types: soprano, alto, tenor and baritone. Judging only by appearance, basically the longer the neck is, the lower the sound. As they are wind instruments, they can be divided into two categories: brass and wood. The former have metallic mouthpieces while the latter have mouthpieces made of wood or bamboo. Houli is famous for making the wooden type.

Manufacturing a saxophone is a complex process involving cutting, hammering, cooling, soldering, finishing (plating or lacquering), buffing and assembly. Good craftsmanship is required, given the subtle relationship between the rods, holes and pads, and final assembly affects the performance of the instruments considerably.

The sophistication of Houli's handmade saxophones has since won the recognition of several international musical instrument companies. However, due to their small-scale operations and lack of marketing channels, domestic makers generally rely on agents to solicit orders for them.

The saxophone factories in Houli are largely run by family members out of their own homes, sometimes with no outside help and rarely with more than three or four employees. They suffered a significant setback in the 1980s when a large company, K.H.S. Musical Co., transformed itself from a seller of musical instruments into a manufacturer, subsequently starting mass production. Several companies were wiped out then.

Through the division of labor, Houli saxophone makers have been able to survive fierce competition. (Photo by Chang Su-ching)

"Twenty years ago, we almost changed our career track when orders from K.H.S. were called off suddenly. That dealt us a great blow," says Chang Wan-fu, who, with his wife Lin Mei-yun, runs Wanlifu Instrument Co. Born in 1953, Chang started to learn saxophone-making as an apprentice when he was 13 and set up his own business at the age of 23.

"My husband had cultivated a solid basis in saxophone-making through a decade-long, strenuous apprenticeship. That's all he was good at and interested in," Lin says. "So we decided that I should go out to sell garments to support the family, while he stayed at home, continuing to polish his skills and make saxophones. If that didn't work out in two years, then we would give up and switch to another business."

Though purchase orders were patchy, Chang's fine craftsmanship helped him secure a few valued clients. One of his Japanese customers even invited him to set up a factory in South Korea. Unwilling to take local skills overseas, Chang turned down the potentially lucrative proposal.

Streamlining Production

"We'd been making saxophones in Houli from generation to generation ... they were a legacy of this town. I felt obligated to keep the flame burning here," he says. At the time he thought, "we could stay afloat, providing that we continually upgraded our techniques and product quality, and fostered cooperation."

Pointing out that their individual operations were small, Chang says that local makers then banded together to create a division-of-labor system based on specialization. Some steps such as electroplating and lacquering were outsourced to specialized factories.

Sixty-five-year-old Huang Chung-hsiung, proprietor of the Huangwei Instrument Co., is another witness and survivor of the rise and fall of the Houli saxophone industry, having been in the business for 48 years.

"The number of saxophone makers in Houli has halved in the last few years, compared to the 1970s heyday," he says. "The main problem is that the operational scale of our factories is too small, while Chinese makers have posed an increasing threat to us because of their low-price competition."

Nevertheless, Huang says that through the division of labor, which reduced costs and increased efficiency, some have managed to stay alive.

"We are expert makers of saxophones, given that we've accumulated several decades of experience. Plus, we are hardworking and with great resilience," he says with confidence. "Our business can take off again if only we can receive financial and marketing assistance from outside to expand our productivity and sales channels."

In fact, help from both the government and research institutes has been given since 2004 when the Industrial Development Bureau under the Ministry of Economic Affairs (MOEA) initiated special projects to promote the innovation and transformation of local industries for a term of two to three years.

Houli's saxophone manufacturing was among those eligible industries chosen for government guidance and aid. "Our evaluations showed that, despite its small size, the domestic saxophone industry was pretty clustered in Houli and with a distinct local identity," says Kuo Sheng-hsi, section chief of the MOEA's Central Region office. "Moreover, it had advantages like fine craftsmanship and flexibility in dealing with customer needs, as well as the formation of a well-rounded supply chain and a satellite factory system in neighboring areas."

In the light of its development and good industrial foundation, Kuo's office decided to give Houli's saxophone industry a boost in the areas of design, materials development, standardization of production procedures and quality control, and marketing. It then commissioned the Industrial Technology Research Institute (ITRI) to implement this project.

Houli saxophone makers work together in research and development, production and marketing to gain a larger market share. (Courtesy of Industrial Technology Research Institute)

Defining Standards

Tsai Chang-wen, a researcher at ITRI and the executor of the saxophone project, says Houli saxophone makers had long made their products based on oral teaching from master craftsmen and had no objective means to gauge their product quality. Also, their OEM business formula limited their growth and caused unstable sales and slim profits.

To address these problems, first of all, ITRI bought saxophones from famous brands such as Henri Selmer of France and Yamaha of Japan and conducted analyses of their materials and timbre. The aim was to develop comparable materials locally and to create yardsticks for quality assurance.

Other important tasks that ITRI pushed through were the birth of an industrial organization, creation of a common brand name, "Saxhome," for saxophones made in Taiwan and the organizing of various publicity campaigns, including instrument exhibitions, musical festivals and a Web site detailing Houli's saxophone manufacturing development, with Chinese, English, French and Japanese versions.

"Houli sax makers must make a concerted effort in research and development, production and marketing to create a bigger market pie," Tsai says. "On top of this they need to build their own brands to thrive in the international market."

Huang Chung-hsiung was elected as the chairman of the Houli Saxophone Manufacturing Association in 2005. "It was the first time in years that local makers sat down together to discuss problems and figure out solutions," Huang recalls of their first meeting. "I got quite emotional when I saw that, and at the same time felt greater confidence in our future development."

Huang says a musical instrument's quality is determined by its pitch accuracy, sound volume and timbre. In the past, the local manufacturers judged such things largely by rule of thumb, based on their individual experience. ITRI has helped a lot by developing a computerized timbre and pitch analyzer as well as a database through its cooperation with several musicians and domestic universities. These systems enable saxophone makers to verify their performance of their products scientifically and know what needs improvement.

Chang Wan-fu of Wanlifu Instrument says that, for average customers, the first thing they consider when buying a saxophone is the look; it needs to be flawless. He is grateful to ITRI for introducing new electroplating technology and nano-coating which has improved the exterior finish of their products.

Apart from expanding their factory's size and workforce, Chang and his wife Lin Mei-yun also strive to promote their own brand name, SaxPlayHouse, through participation in instrument exhibitions and competitions, and the setting up of a sales store.

Better Prospects

Their efforts have gradually paid off in that, this year, their monthly sales have more than doubled compared with a year ago and their brand, SaxPlayHouse, is among the 20 winners of the 2007 Taiwan Superior Brands award, organized by the Taiwan External Trade Development Council. And a Taiwanese entrepreneur has expressed an interest in establishing specialized saxophone chains in China in 2008 to sell their products.

The Chang sisters' sax quartet performs in a domestic TV variety show. (Courtesy of Chang Lien-cheng Saxophone Museum)

"We have never been as confident and ambitious as we are now. Besides producing high-quality, high-end products, there are many more things that I'd like to do, like working with the tourism sector and setting up a large showroom and online shops to market our products," Lin says.

On the other hand, she hopes the government can provide the industry with low-interest loans to facilitate expansion of capacity and larger-scale marketing schemes which, she thinks, would enable them to grow faster.

Similarly, 44-year-old Wang Ching-sung, the boss of I Shin Instrument, believes that Taiwanese saxophone makers can find a niche in producing high-end and more sophisticated products.

"Some manufacturing steps such as soldering and final assembly still have to be done by hand, while customers are increasingly critical about overall product quality. The know-how we've accumulated over time enables us to excel in details," Wang says. "Plus, we are flexible in tackling customer needs in that we can develop a new model and hand in a sample in 10 days."

Wang is glad to see his formerly quiet town coming alive again through the increasing presence of tourists. "Thanks to ITRI's publicity campaigns and the TV commercial, many people now know if they want to get a good saxophone, Houli is the place to come to," he says with delight.

Indeed, the Chang Lien-cheng Saxophone Museum, for instance, has become one of the principal tourist destinations in the area. It showcases Chang's drawings of saxophone parts and the saxophone made by him, and the different steps of saxophone making.

"When my grandpa decided to make saxophones, people thought he was crazy and would never succeed," says Chang Tsung-yao, Chang Lien-cheng's eldest grandson. "Still, he went after his goal and enabled Houli to secure a place in the global saxophone trade. We set up the museum to commemorate his achievements."

Looking After a Legacy

Chang Tsung-yao and his wife Wang Tsai-jui continue to run the family saxophone business and seek to promote their own brand name, Lien Cheng. They plan to relocate the museum to a larger site that can accommodate a performance hall.

"Now that we have better techniques and products, the task ahead is to create our own brands and launch aggressive marketing," Wang says. "Our ideal is to build a place where visitors can appreciate sophisticated musical instruments and, as well, listen to the music because, after all, it's the music that endows the instruments with life."

One way to promote Houli's saxophones, Wang says, is to train musicians who later can become spokesmen for the products. She has been paving the way for this by cultivating the musical accomplishments of her four daughters--the eldest one is currently majoring in music at the university, two are in high school and one attends elementary school.

Together they have formed a sax quartet and are invited to perform in music festivals in Taiwan and overseas. Their reputation has spread after they were featured in the 2003 TV commercial.

The Chang family has come a long way from the days 60 years ago when Chang Lien-cheng taught himself the art of saxophone-making, to the Chang sisters' sax quartet.

And it is hoped that continuing collaboration between the government, academia and industry can produce new, ever brighter and bolder chapters in the story of Houli's musical miracle.
 
#23 ·
I find this whole attitude a bit disturbing. If one brand of saxophone is made in the same factory as another one, then it must be the same instrument.

This is complete nonsense even if they look identical, as has been mentioned over and over again.

I have looked into having saxophones produced in the far east, and I believe I could produce a quite well selling and very high quality instrument. This would be a non profit venture.

However the kind of naivety shown here is partly the reason I don't waste my time and financial investment.

Here's the scenario:

I research instruments form lots of factories and trading companies. I find a basically very nice saxophone. I do more research and playtesting and ask the factory to make few changes/improvements. These may or may not be noticeable to the naked eye.. I import the saxophones and pay for a world class technician to make more changes and a pro set up. These may or may not be noticeable to the naked eye..

I then discover that on SOTW someone has compared my saxophone side by side with one that looks identical (but without the improvements) and tells people that my saxophone comes from the same factory as the other horn (the one with with no improvements either at source or after import), and therefore my price, which could be 50% more, is a rip off.

No thanks.

People use this "same factory" malarkey to suit what they want to broadcast.

If they import a saxophone and sell it cheaper than another one they may well claim theirs is from "the same factory as a Mauriat, Cannonball, Jupiter, Trevor James etc." thinking that most people are stupid enough to fall for that.

Or else they may be in competition with another company and just want to badmouth that company by saying that company's horns are the same as so and so because they come from the same factory and look the same but cost more.

Surely we are not that stupid, even though we may be somewhat naive.

It's better to judge a saxophone with your ears than with your eyes and a list of factories.
 
#28 ·
I find this whole attitude a bit disturbing. If one brand of saxophone is made in the same factory as another one, then it must be the same instrument.

This is complete nonsense even if they look identical, as has been mentioned over and over again.

I have looked into having saxophones produced in the far east, and I believe I could produce a quite well selling and very high quality instrument. This would be a non profit venture.

However the kind of naivety shown here is partly the reason I don't waste my time and financial investment.
I think it's unfair to suggest that I should have to do more to distinguish your brand than you do. Isn't it "your" responsibility as well as in your best interest to point out and highlight what these great improvements/differences are?

Also, I wonder about parts supply on these horns. When these trading companies/manufacturers are able to shift their sources apparently on a whim, what will happen say 5 years from now when i need a side "C" key. (Are they required to have a certain number of years inventory of parts available?)
 
#25 ·
I think this is like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for the following reasons:

- Anyone who has enough money to buy a dozen or so saxophones can order them from a number of offshore companies and have their name stenciled on them.
- The above individual can do this over and over once each batch of instruments are sold and choose a different factory each time.
- It is in neither in the manufacturer's nor the vendor's best interest to disclose which factory made which batch of saxophones.

The most regrettable part of this whole scenario from a saxophone repair technician's point of view is that for the most part these vendors of the "sax du jour" do not back up their instruments with repair parts. One cannot even get something as simple as pivot screws or keyguard screws with the right threads. One of the reasons that these vendors can sell more cheaply is that they do not have the overhead expense of stocking and selling basic replacement parts like the established brands such as Jupiter, Mauriat, Cannonball, etc. do.
 
#29 ·
- It is in neither in the manufacturer's nor the vendor's best interest to disclose which factory made which batch of saxophones.
Nor is it in the customer's best interest to know, as they could waste a lot of money and time trying to communicate with with people who speak a different language, when what they only need to do is deal with a reputable importer/brand who QC and set up the saxophones and offer a return policy, guarantee and supply parts. Simple as that.

If you buy from some fly by night cowboy (who doesn't set them up) offering cheap horns that seem too good to be true then you know you are taking the gamble. But trying to find the factory in Taiwan or China and who to speak to about spare parts is a hiding to nothing.
 
#26 ·
It's natural for a person spending a bunch of money to wonder where the product he or she is purchasing comes from:

Who made it?
Can parts be sourced reliably?
Is the same thing available at reduced cost?
Will there be product support?
Will the product retain it's value over time?
Will the product be durable?
Who are the suppliers of components?

With many of the instruments being imported currently, we don't even know if the vendor is well capitalized. When or if the importer goes out of business, how is purchaser to source parts? It is almost impossible if the end purchaser does not know who actually made the instrument. That said, I own a bunch of instruments that have not been made in many, many years.

I am on my own.......but I understood that going in.

A better model might be high quality bicycles.........People purchase complete bikes or components......People examine component packages when making purchase decisions.



We know a lot more about the current makers of mouthpieces and pads than we do about the current suppliers of instruments themselves.
 
#27 ·
With many of the instruments being imported currently, we don't even know if the vendor is well capitalized. When or if the importer goes out of business, how is purchaser to source parts?
If you're going to pay the markup and buy new, I guess it would be nice to know that the extra money paid will give some sort of a guarantee. However, the second hand and vintage horn markets do quite nicely without such assurances knowing that there are plenty of band instrument repair men and women out there that can fabricate parts. Yet another reason why buying new is highly overrated. Even with currently available horns, you're bound to do better on the second hand market; especially with the concerns you raise.
 
#34 ·
Rory...hey man. Coupla things. Excuse my ignorance, but what is the album on your new avatar. Second, each time i read your posts, i wonder about your Martin. " Dick Stabile " is it? To my knowledge i have never seen one. Any chance of a pic. If you prefer, mail it to me....adetenorsax@ gmail.com. Hope all is good dude....respect...a
 
#36 ·
Hey Adrian! No ignorance. It's not an album, it's a ridiculous cartoon cooked up by the marketing geniuses working for the NHL (National Hockey League) and Stan Lee. They're trying to sell hockey to fat kids in Florida who think video games are a sport.

My Martin tenor is a Committee stencil that was sold by the Sorkin Music company in New York in the 30s and 40s. Thanks to Pete Hales (aka saxpics) they're very highly touted on the internet; however, to my knowledge, nobody good ever used one! :)

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=mod&modID=89#sub1
 
#37 ·
Pete: A very wise and educated argument - thank you!! +10 ( I was hoping to get your input here)

I think it is EXTREMELY important to recognize the difference between the $299 ebay special from the Cannonball or Mauriat that could of been easily made in the same factory. Obviously those companies went above and beyond the just parts being made.

Kind of like Vito buying raw Yamaha 23's and doing their own lacquer and pad jobs on them. Same horn, same mechanics, didn't play EXACTLY the same because of the different final procedures. Price also reflected this.

I think another good simplified example would be to take a stock mouthpiece and have a quality re-facer do work on them. Based upon a personal experience - I sent a Link Bari MPC to Erik Griffenhagen and it came back a whole different quality amazing product. The horn manufacturers make a product and at different stages they get tweeked (and that is a purposely broad term) by the company ordering the product. Their stock product and the one tweeked are very much different.

But here comes my next argument ...... What keeps the manufacturer from applying the improvements you (or any other company that is dictating a quality product) to the $299 horn they are selling under their own name? Good Faith? Product agreement?

I am NOT looking at this from the point of view that I want to make my own line of saxophones. Nor do I want to undermine the companies that put in the extra effort in making a quality product. I hope most people would agree.

I however think that the answers should be easily available for those people who want to research a product before they buy it. But I agree 110% that it can be misleading when a horn is known that it came from the same factory as another ......... the general public should be aware that it would more than likely be quite different with a different name stamped on it.

Then there are the people just having their own name stamped on the foreign companies product and charging more money for the myth that they too did some improvements. That is more common with student lines of instruments. - (A whole different can of worms? A can or worms within a can of worms?)

:)
Charlie

This is a can of worms!! But if the can isn't ever opened, dead worms can smell pretty bad!!

Charlie
 
#40 ·
But here comes my next argument ...... What keeps the manufacturer from applying the improvements you (or any other company that is dictating a quality product) to the $299 horn they are selling under their own name? Good Faith? Product agreement?
Both. Good faith is not immediately applicable in business, whether it's in the USA, England, Ireland or China.

Initially contracts are what counts. But improvements cost money and nobody wants to invest in something that is then taken and used freely without your knowledge or consent, so ideally it would be a combination of a contract and good faith.

One consideration is that a contract based on the law of another country may be a bit shaky in reality. Your willingness and trust of that contract is based on good faith though. But ultimately I believe a relationship can be built up which is what counts.

As an example, there is a UK importer, bauhaus walstein, who have instruments made in China and Taiwan. They appear to have something no other importers have, ie shoulderless point screws as a new feature on their Chinese made saxophones. They also appear to have very strong keywork. They also appear to have very tight keywork. I have seen identical instruments that many people might swear come from the same factory, but without shoulderless point screws, but with bendy and wobbly keywork. They look the same!

My gut feeling is that BW have made such an investment in stock, that the factory have to take them seriously and so (with or without a contract, who knows?), they want to keep in with their customer so there is a certain amount of honour.

I don't know if they have the point screws made at the factory (they say they do). I don't know if they specify (and obviously pay for) a different quality of metal. I don't know how much work they do to the keywork once the horn arrives in England. I do know they spend time setting them up because I've seen them do it at the shop.

If I was to import a horn, I would look at all of those things and lots more (and not just because I would be in direct competition with that company).

I might order a small quantity, e.g 100 saxophones. At that stage if I designed an improvement and ask a factory to implement it, I would be very wary that they may just use that for themselves or other customers. BTW this applies to any factory in any country, not just China of course. After a few years of continually ordering over and again, I would feel more confident of specifying some design improvements, knowing they want me as a customer so there is mutual trust, I know at that point they are unlikely to stiff me.
 
#38 ·