You are right but don't try to tell these guys.

 

Troy Roberts is a phenomenal player. There aren't a lot of "those guys" here or anywhere, for that matter. At his level, yeah......he can play pretty much any horn and sound great, but to 95+% of the players on this planet, horns and mouthpieces can and do make a difference.

 

the indian not the arrow

 

Question! Would Joe Henderson really sound the same if we put him on a 10* Florida STM with a No.2 Rico reed? Really?

 

Hot off the press, thanks for posting, this is very gorgeous!

ps

give him his conn and a yamaha 4c mpc with a No 2 rico reed and he wont be sounding the same eh!

 

Yeah. The common denominator is the mouthpiece/reed setup.

 

Hi
You would find a well set-up 21 responsive, to have excellent intonation, with a very pure saxophone sound.
This year I found myself needing a back-up horn and ended up with a YTS22 ( same horn in copper lacquer)
I felt that it needed a different mouthpiece to my long standing EB,STM and so I now use on it a Benjamin Allen 10E #8.
There are many horns that cost a hole load of cash that I would put to one side in preference of a 21 or 22.

 

Right the point I was trying to make is that expensive equipment does not make the player .ive listened to tons of posted sound clips on this site and others of guys trying out countless mouthpieces and they usually sound the same on practically anything but if you guys actually believe that the $2000 mouthpiece and $7000 horn is going to make you play better then go for by all means keep buying . Most long time pros already have suitable equipment it's the talent and the hours of practice that makes the difference

 

+1 and amen to that !

 

If I had to guess, I would say that this is a special playing Yamaha for Troy. Maybe I'm wrong and he could grab any YTS-21 and go to a gig but I'm thinking not. I've played hundreds of YTS-21s and YAS-23s and although they are pretty darn consistent, I have played many that were average, some that were not good sounding for whatever reason and a very few that were amazing.

 

I've played hundreds of YTS-21s and YAS-23s and although they are pretty darn consistent, I have played many that were average, some that were not good sounding for whatever reason and a very few that were amazing.

Would that not depend on each individual horns set-up ?

I have not played hundreds of 21s ... tons of 23s 32s 52s and 62s but the 21 ...only 3 tenors ever.
About six years ago a friend and cyclist buddy of mine got ill and had to give up cycling. He later asked me if I thought it was a good idea for him to take up sax (at 60 ) So of course I said yes.
We searched eBay for a 23 but nothing in good shape came up. Then he called me and asked what a 21 was like because he had seen one for sale in fabulous condition for £290. I gave him the nod and he not only bought it, but he gave it to our friend Griff for a roo-pad re-pad.
I played it after it came back and was intrigued at how pure the sound was ... it felt very classical.
I found myself wanting to have a go on it every time he came round...not that I haven't got some very beautiful kit, It was just a different sound pallet and kind of fun! I don't think I have ever felt like that about a 23 , not that the 23 isn't a great student horn, it is ! But it doesn't hold my interest like the 21.
On top of that, if a horn responds well and is incredibly well in tune ...is not the rest of it down to tonal colour and it's relationship with you and your mouthpiece ?

I am happy to own one and in time I will re-pad my one too.
I regard them as under priced and extremely underrated...and I will say it again, politely, There are many horns I have picked up and played over the past 15 or so years that cost lots more and would not perform as well.

 

Very thin in the palm keys lacking any character IMO.

 

I had a guy offer me whatever I wanted for my SBA. He said "Just name your price" and I'll pay it. He also offered me 3000 for a link I played on a sound clip. (Obviously he wasn't hurting for money) I said no to both. Some would say I'm foolish but to me my horn and that mouthpiece have a greater worth than money that in all honesty would be gone within months probably...........

 

Even though I have the Selmer's i still go on lots of gigs with the Yamaha 61 and I defy people to tell me the difference nobody seems to notice or care I can tell a difference but that's about it i could take a Yamaha student model in good repair and play a gig and nobody would care or even notice The only reason I got this selmer was because I was 16 years old and asked all the older pros what kind of horn I should buy and they all told me selmer now I realize it makes a difference to the player but people usually cannot tell what kind a horn or mouthpiece a players using just by listening

 

By the way Steve you are in amazing player I listen to your clips on the Internet and they all sound fabulous almost irregardless of what kind of equipment you're using I realize that you have your favorite equipment but when I listen to your clips I can tell that's a very very good player and regardless of what equipment you may be using at that moment

 

Very interesting posts: a great player can play great on a mediocre horn. I think that fairly sums up many of the posts.

I couldn't agree more. But I've had two different experiences.

One: a great R&B player I worked with playing a rubber-banded who-knows-what piece of junk that I could not play at all. he, on the other hand, played stuff I couldn't imagine how to play ( gut-bucket R&B to the max). One day he heard I was selling my Mk VI tenor and we swapped horns for a set. He sounded AWFUL. he couldn't do anything on the VI. I refused to sell it to him. Moral: a great player might not sound great on a great horn?

The second is with young student players: they sound 100% better on a good mouthpiece/ horn than on a mediocre mouthpiece/ horn. That's one I've proven a few times: I've balanced mouthpieces for an entire elementary school band sax section and.... suddenly they could play in tune with each other. It made their experience a lot more enjoyable, which resulted in more time on the horn and more progress in a shorter time. That group, when they got to middle school, outplayed the high school band in terms of sound and in terms of difficulty of repertoire. The high school band director was rather embarassed at the year-end concert by it.

So, yes- great players can play great on less than great equipment. That's no surprise.
Does that mean that developing players won't play or sound better on very good equipment? I don't think we can say that, truthfully.

( I don't think anybody actually said that here. I'd be surprised if somebody did.)

 

I'm not a great player but I do have a fairly new YTS-62 and a YTS-21 and the difference between the 2 is primarily comfort, not sound.

 

Which horn is more comfortable for you?

Which one sounds better. in your opinion?

 

Tenor player Troy Roberts usually plays his wonderful old Conn tranny, or his amazing hand made Inderbinen tenor. But in his latest youtube video, he plays his old YTS-21.... It sounds beautiful, proving, once again, that it's 99.9% the player, not the horn.

[/QUOTE
It sounds beautiful because of the player and because it's a Yamaha.

 

I know an excellent sax player locally ( he has a huge ego, so I won't mention his name, lol) who plays on a student Yamaha alto and a student - chipped no less- mouthpiece. He sounds and plays be-bop so close to Charley Parker you can't helped but be impressed. I took some lessons from him and that is when I found out about his mediocre equipment. In his case, the equipment didn't seem to hold him back, at least to my ears. I personally am very grateful I have some top quality equipment and am quite content to play it. It has taken me a long time to find the right combination of horn, mouthpiece and reeds (and the ability to shape reeds) to the sound I like- to want to go in an opposite direction and relearn things. But if I pick up a student horn and play on a student mouthpiece, I'm pretty sure I will sound more accomplished than the student who owns the horn and am pretty sure I can still play well enough to make some money on a gig using the student equipment.

 

There's a video of him on YouTube playing Caravan on the 21 with a Link. It's dynamite.

 

Go listen to early Dex on his 10m and Dukoff, and then listen to him later on his Mark VI and Link.


Listen to early Gene Ammons on his Tonalin Brilhart, and then later on his Ebolin.



The list goes on and on and on.....

 

We all seem to perseverate on the equipment(myself included) but when the rubber hits the road all the combinations of players and mouthpieces still sound like a saxophone. I like the way he sounds on that 21 and it seems the audience did as well.

 

Stantawn Kendrick - Cheap Sax Vs. Vintage Sax....

 

Hey Berg-Man, thanks for that link!

In my original post I said the sound was 99.9% the player. That was hyperbole, of course, and I had no idea it would engender such a serious discussion about gear. That wasn't my intent, which was simply to have people hear a great player make beautiful music with what many consider to be a "lesser" horn. Stantawn Kendrick, in the video you linked, is probably closer to the truth: that it's 95% the player and maybe 5% the horn. But whether the difference a horn makes is 0.1% or 5%, if playing a great sax offers more comfort, better fit, and better tone -- especially for many of the outstanding musicians weighing in here -- it's worth every nickel.

Someone above said the palm key notes in this particular Troy Roberts live recording sounded thin. Maybe that's the 5% difference that Kendrick describes a horn can make. It could also be that the recording equipment, the EQ, or the acoustic elements in the ambient environment contribute something to that, as well. No way to know unless Troy were to record the same piece in the same space with the same recording gear with one or both of his other horns: his relatively modestly priced old Conn tranny or his $10,000 Inderbinen.

Here is what Roberts himself says in the comments section of that youtube video, after a couple of us had wondered aloud what horn he was playing:

"Hey fellas, this is my Yamaha YTS-21, the horn I began on and toured with for many years.. Just thought I'd use it on this trip for fun."


In any case, it was good enough to Place at Australia's most prestigious jazz awards competition.

Fun stuff, indeed!

 

This guy makes my point for me better than I could this little video should be required .... I know I know that the end saxes may feel better to play but to most people including players the actual sound quality is negligible thanks for posting that

 

Ha! Are you stickin' it to me Berg-Man?? :lol:

 

Ya finally got it !

 

Slight departure from the thread, but I noticed on Troy Roberts' website he has the YTS-21 AND the Inderbinen up for sale. So he's favoring his Silver Plated Conn Chu-Berry.

"FOR SALE: Custom Handmade Tenor saxophone by Thomas Inderbinen. (click HERE to hear)
Yamaha YTS-21 Tenor Saxophone (click HERE to hear)"

 

Don't underestimate the student Yamaha horns. When they're at up well, they can keep up with the most renowned horns on the planet.

 

I dont think so. They are great student horns but lacks in the tone departement compared to PRO saxophones.

 

For me regardless of brand name consistency is the word we are missing so it is no surprise that Troy stuck to what works for him, tho If in his younger years he had a Conn or VI then maybe the same would apply...

I am no brand snob and totally believe it is the physical build up of a player matching to a specific sax regardless of brand.
To me he sounds great on his "student sax"

 

Duke Ellington: "If it sounds good, it IS good."