The size and shape of the oral cavity will give players a pre-disposition to a certain sound, and it's the starting point from which you work.
That's not the only physical component that makes a real difference in the sound a player gets, but it is an important and fundamental one.

 

Absolutely true--and very overlooked IMO

 

All that "rules" such as what sound one's anatomy will produce is to cause folks to assume limitations in performance based on preconceived notions. It is best to ignore such things and just continue developing the sound that you want. Concerning oneself with what might be and what might not be does not help to develop that sound that you want.

 

True, to a certain extent. This is why many styles and types of mouthpieces are made, and why some people play dark on a Berg, and others very bright on a Link. Sound concept and experience are still only 2/3rds of the equation. Physical makeup of the mouth, teeth, and oral cavity make up the rest. It isn't a limitation, just a known variable.

 

With no intention to belittle the question, the specifics of an individual's oral cavity are not the primary factor in tone, but certainly are a factor. It's really the whole body - seriously. The ability to use the diaphragm to push air, the size and shape of the chest, lung capacity, head and neck size and shape, sinus cavities, jaw features, dental characteristics (over/under bite, missing teeth, etc.), size, shape and position of tongue, facial characteristics such as lips and muscles and of course oral cavity size and shape. Still, although no player can be exactly like another player in physical characteristics, it is amazingly true that one completely different player can manage to play and sound very much like another if they are willing to work at it, because some of the more critical factors are flexible. We change the volume of the oral cavity a significant amount by opening and closing the mouth and moving the tongue; we can change the embouchure. We can vary the amount of air we use and it's pressure; we can use many different kinds of instruments, mouthpieces and reeds.
So, yeah, the oral cavity affects tone. How much it affects it is player-specific and mostly not intentional. It always before was really subconscious adjustments you made in the attempt to get a sound or effect like the guy on the record. I mean, can anybody (should anybody) try to play music while they try to remember all those factors and try to adjust them on the fly? Don't you think these factors are really the result of people trying to analyze how somebody really good plays so they can try to teach it the clueless? IOW, the old problem of science trying to describe art.

 

I have a large oral cavity. Sometimes I play very 'bright'. Sometimes I'm a 'warm blower'.
What I do INSIDE that large oral cavity makes some difference in my personal sound.

 

Yes, your whole body will have an influence on your sound. But it's possible to transcend these attributes by the way you blow (shape of tongue, speed of air, embouchure, throat, etc.)

There are two great proofs of this in jazz history.

First Coltrane at 26, then 8 years later. Totally different sound.

Then, even though it's not as drastic, Lovano in 77 and something more recent.

 

"Proof"? That's disriculous. Might some years on the horn have just a lil' influence on developing a personal sound? Gimme a few more data points, maybe a couple examples where someone lost weight over the course of 10-15 years, and even though they developed as a musician, their sound faded with their mass.

I know that I have maintained my weight within a span of about 15 pounds (185-200 lbm) over the last 40 years, and my sound just continues to grow - because I continue to work on it. Yes, you can develop a FAT sound without growing a body to match.

 

In HS and for YEARS after graduation I weight at MOST 125lbs. That's relatively thin, but I still played with a FAT sound.
Now that I'm heavier I still play with a fat sound. I just has a bit more 'resonance'.

 

Yeah; I've gained some "resonance" over the years too.

 

Oral cavity affects the sound very very little.

I know it seems like common sense that the oral cavity would have an effect, but I'm now absolutely sure it has no effect whatsoever. Dr. Edward Pillinger has done research into this, albeit using a clarinet, however i can't see it would be any different to a saxophone.

By building an artificial embouchure he was able to cut out any human variables, and to his surprise he found that while lip pressure and position made a difference, the actual cavity and/or the material of the cavity made absolutely no difference to the sound. He upset a few orchestral players and learned acousticians in the process, but they could not deny his results.

As we might expect with the lip pressure and position, very slight and subtle changes could make a huge difference. This is what we work towards in our tone exercise: absolute control over the lip part of embouchure. Oral cavity we can't do much about, beyond puffing out our cheeks or cutting a bit off our tongues so basically it's down to how hard we work o other things, i.e. lip pressure, position, articulation, airflow.

 

Oral cavity affects the sound very very little.

I know it seems like common sense that the oral cavity would have an effect, but I'm now absolutely sure it has no effect whatsoever. Dr. Edward Pillinger has done research into this, albeit using a clarinet, however i can't see it would be any different to a saxophone.

By building an artificial embouchure he was able to cut out any human variables, and to his surprise he found that while lip pressure and position made a difference, the actual cavity and/or the material of the cavity made absolutely no difference to the sound. He upset a few orchestral players and learned acousticians in the process, but they could not deny his results.

As we might expect with the lip pressure and position, very slight and subtle changes could make a huge difference. This is what we work towards in our tone exercise: absolute control over the lip part of embouchure. Oral cavity we can't do much about, beyond puffing out our cheeks or cutting a bit off our tongues so basically it's down to how hard we work o other things, i.e. lip pressure, position, articulation, airflow.

As a beginner, I am bombarded with a lot of information and, at times, contradictory advice. It helps to get some clarification.

When you say position, I assume you mean mouthpiece position (how much mouthpiece is taken in).

Does the position and shape of the tongue play a part in changing the tone and pitch. Or, is the tongue only for articulation?

Edit: I have read advice to keep the tongue touching/close to the back molars and to arch the back of the tongue. In other words, to use the tongue to change pitch, direction of airflow, etc.

 

it should be all here

https://www2.lawrence.edu/fast/jordheis/welcome.html

you can see videos of the various things which we perform and read about the project

"......The Saxophonist's Anatomy
Welcome to The Saxophonist's Anatomy website. This site includes video and still images of the anatomy of the vocal tract during performance of many standard and extended techniques on the alto saxophone. The examination of the vocal tract in saxophone performance was a project of the saxophone studio of Steven Jordheim at the Lawrence University Conservatory of Music in 2008 and 2009.

Project Purpose and Design

•Date: January, 2008 - June, 2009

•Purpose: To increase understanding of the involvement of the vocal mechanism in the performance of standard and extended saxophone techniques and to provide direction for future research

•Participants: Six saxophonists - one female and five males - drawn from faculty, alumni, and students of the Lawrence University Conservatory Saxophone Studio

•Location: Ear, Nose, and Throat Clinic of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Appleton, Wisconsin

•Procedure: An otolaryngologist transnasally placed a fiber-optic camera into the throat of each saxophonist, providing a view of the base of the tongue and epiglottis, the structures of the larynx, and the muscular wall of the pharynx; the saxophonist performed a series of standard and extended techniques while the otolaryngologist recorded the movements of the anatomical structures. The camera was removed, and another camera was placed in the corner of the mouth to provide a view of the tongue and palate, and the mouthpiece and reed; the saxophonist repeated the series of performance techniques while the otolaryngologist recorded the movements of the anatomical structures.

•Videostroboscopy Equipment: Kay Elemetics videostroboscopy system with DVD recorder using a flexible Machida ENT-3L No. 84190 nasopharyngoscope

•Performance Equipment: Medium faced alto saxophone mouthpieces including the Selmer C* and Vandoren AL3

•Results: Video and audio clips that reveal the involvement of the anatomical structures of the vocal tract in a survey of standard and extended saxophone techniques. The recorded data was analyzed and interpreted by faculty of the Lawrence Conservatory and speech pathologists at University of Wisconsin Hospitals.

The recordings revealed that the action of the vocal mechanism was nearly identical across the group of participants for nearly all techniques performed in the project. Consequently, those video images which most clearly reveal the action of the vocal mechanism were selected for presentation on this website. For any specified technique, the video and still images of the throat and mouth are of the same saxophonist, though multiple saxophonists are represented on this website.

The design of this website allows the viewer to access video and still images in the order of the viewer's choosing. However, it is beneficial to study the "Illustrations of the Anatomy" and "Endoscopy" pages prior to viewing any of the pages devoted to specific performance techniques and to view all of the pages in the order presented when first viewing the contents of this website. Doing so provides the viewer with a more clear understanding of the anatomical structures of the vocal tract and their function in the performance of saxophone techniques.

All pitches referenced on this website are written in transposed form for the alto saxophone. For example, Bb3 refers to the lowest Bb of the alto saxophone; Bb6 refers to the Bb in the altissimo register.

 

it should be all here

https://www2.lawrence.edu/fast/jordheis/welcome.html ............................

Just what the doctor ordered
As if my bumbling attempts to learn to play the saxophone were not painful enough.

 

The idea that oral cavity has no impact on the sound is, well......
Let's put it this way : I have ears. I can f'ing hear!

 

Let's put it this way : I have ears. I can f'ing hear!

Of course, I think that goes without saying. i.e. nobody would dispute that.

 

I have always felt that the shape of the tongue can direct and change the focus of the air stream into the tip of the mouthpiece. Not true?

 

I feel the same. Not sure.

 

Mouth cavity shape and volume has an effect on tone, but not quite as much as which precious metal your ligature is plated with.

 

Too funny!

 

I wonder to what extent does the oral cavity offer more emotion

 

Try changing the shape of your cavity when playing.

I do this on the gig to get ooh-aah sounds out of my horn. Changing the shape while playing can be an expressive device if used at the right time and in the right amount.

Insights and incites by Notes

 

But seriously, I think that Dr. Pillinger's study shows clearly that the size of the mouth cavity makes no difference, but certainly tongue size, shape, position and the shape changes between that and the soft pallet clearly affect tone substantially, by either changing the speed of the airstream or by formant filtering.

 

formant filtering.

creating sort of a "wall" for the sound to reflect off

I am not sure that I understand how my oral cavity/shape changes the sound, apart from influencing how the reed vibrates.
Is the noise in my head really audible outside?

 

Bahahaha yes timbre. LOL

Yes, of course there are vibrations in the oral cavity. All that sound going out into the room travels in all directions. Due to proximity, a deal of it resonates in your mouth and reflects back at the aperture.

 

I use the throat growl, flutter tongue too -- but I also change the shape of my mouth while playing for expressive purposes, and it definitely changes the tone. I can play a one-note solo and change the sound of the sax on alternating notes. I also use it along with dynamics for multi-note solos for an expressive device.

Perhaps it's the standing waves in the mouth, pressure on the reed or something else (standing waves sounds most logical), but I don't have to know why to use it as an effect.

Insights and incites by Notes

 

So much for beginner's discussion.

 

+1 How simple questions just go ballistic here!

But on a slight tangent, I don't think anyone has mentioned the ANGLE of the mpc entry into the oral cavity. I think this has a very large influence, as well as breath support and amount of mpc taken in.

Its relatively easy to experiment with that and Im always wanting to get the end of my neck (of my horn...) angled up just a tad to optimize it.

 

My take on this sort of thing is most of the adjustments you'll be making will be largely subconscious, in response to what your ear is telling you. So if I get what he's saying, I'm with Pete. Yes the angle the mpc enters your mouth is important and I guess you could experiment with it a bit to see what happens, but ultimately if you pay attention to your sound you'll automatically make any necessary adjustments. As long as you place it at roughly a right angle, the idea you can actually think about some specific angle for the mpc is a bit much, imo. Conscious thinking about all this embouchure stuff, tongue position, throat, lips, cheeks, mpc angle, etc, is just too much thinking when you're trying to play music. Use your ear, fill the horn with air, and the rest will follow.

I may be over-simplifying a bit, but man, don't over think the whole thing.

 

Use your ear, fill the horn with air, and the rest will follow.

Sheer wisdom.

I may be over-simplifying a bit...

Nope, not at all. That is everything.

 

I switched to classical saxophone education and now the positioning of my upper teeth have to change...in simple words i have been said from my tutor: "too much mouthpiece out sonny"!
"you re way out of the reasonable limits of the mouth that fills the mouthpiece"...and i am wondering if that's subjective,has to do with the comibination (mp and reed), or it's just classical school of saxophone? Can't get even the first range of the harmonics...

 

"too much mouthpiece out sonny"!
"you re way out of the reasonable limits of the mouth that fills the mouthpiece"...

Could you translate that? Is he saying you're taking in too much mpc, or too little? Or something else?

 

Face a reflective wall so you can really hear yourself, and change everything you can, and listen to what it does.

That's how I learned how to make ooh-aah sounding tones on the same note by changing the shape of my oral cavity and embouchure.

Insights and incites by Notes

 

I don't even agree in principle. I know the study he's citing, and it is wholly inadequate to the task of measuring the effects of oral cavity on sound. In practice, it is provably and easily demostrable that the oral cavity has a tremendous effect on the sound.

 

I don't even agree in principle. I know the study he's citing, and it is wholly inadequate to the task of measuring the effects of oral cavity on sound. In practice, it is provably and easily demonstrable that the oral cavity has a tremendous effect on the sound.

Altissimo notes especially seem to be all about what you do with your mouth. So much that the fingerings become less important as you go up....

And what you do with your mouth (oral cavity) has an effect on your embouchure. That may seem a subtle distinction in practical terms so why is the distinction important? For me it's helped to minimize the need for excess movement. And by minimizing excess movement I find there are many more things I can do on the horn in terms of flexibility, tonal color, intonation, altissimo and basic tone. I still move things, and so I'm not negating the idea that oral cavity shape matters. Just maybe reconsidering it's function, how it all actually works.

 

I didn't know you could play many altissimo notes without raising the back of your tongue and drawing in the sides of your mouth, which I assumed was reducing the size of the oral cavity...Actually, I know it changes the size of the oral cavity. And like others here, I believe that when I'm shaping any note, part of that is accomplished by similar internal changes. I could be convinced of the validity of the study in spite of what seems to be "evidence" to the contrary (at least IMO), but I'm not convinced yet. It's a concept that could change the way I visualize certain sounds. Altissimo notes especially seem to be all about what you do with your mouth. So much that the fingerings become less important as you go up....

 

Sorry if I come off as snarky.

 

In thinking about this a bit further, the reason I’m inclined to put the emphasis on the reed is that by reducing these movements I realize that their effects are not as dependent upon the degree of movement I once considered necessary. In other words, I used to move things quite a lot in order to get a lot of tonal variety, manipulate pitch, et cetera. Now I find I can get the same (and better) results by moving much less. If the acoustical conditions in the oral cavity were that determinant I would expect greater cause and effect in the degree to which I move things. In finding the “required” movements to be much more subtle it clues me into what must be happening at the reed.

Plus, even though we all have our “own” sounds I would expect even greater variety based upon body type, or at least some kind of consistency between folks that have similar physical make up. And I don’t. I think that may have been the point of that Pillinger study you referred to. Not trying to prove anything here. I take all POV seriously. Just reporting on my personal take.

 

OP: HOW MUCH DOES MOUTH CAVITY AFFECT TONE GENERALLY?

It's not about reeds. It's not about mouthpieces. It's not about horns.

The mouth cavity has (pick the one that applies to where you're at in developing a sound and in hearing yourself clearly) : 1. An effect. 2. A significant effect. 3. A big effect. 4. No effect 5. An insignificant effect 6. What's a mouth cavity ?

Dan has it right. Just LISTEN. The answer is right there. Believe it.

Think about it this way: would you sound like you if miraculously you were given Dexter Gordon's mouth cavity for an hour?

 

Just LISTEN. The answer is right there. Believe it.

Of course, that's the tool we use and over time we condition and train our body to do what we need it to do. This discussion doesn't change that. But personally I find that getting in touch with these things (and speaking about them) is beneficial, even if concrete answers are elusive. It informs the process, defines what some of the parameters are and hopefully can being some clarity and focus to our work. The discussions themselves may be inconclusive, messy or even tedious at times. But to the extent that it may affect one's work on the horn, simply by confronting things experientially, can be positive. I would advise no one to take these discussions too seriously. The real work is on the horn. So yea, just listen…