[KeithL]

Well, we could start by DEFINING it, in this context.

To me it's either

" A meaningful number of people can make a living wage at it"

or

"Most people consuming today's music (not aficionados; the average Joe who doesn't really care about music one way or the other) think "saxophone" when the subject of popular music comes up"

And I don't see either of those happening.

So, for example, Taylor Swift is relevant in today's music scene. So is Beyonce. So are DJs. I'd say electric guitar soloists are waning rapidly. Patrick Bartley, a superb saxpohonist, who's well respected amongst jazz fans, is NOT relevant to "today's music scene". Take 100 people walking down the street in your average city, and ask them if they know who he is, and if they care. I'd say he IS relevant to "today's straightahead jazz music scene in large cities amongst those over 60".

Yeah, I get you here turf - are we talking about musically relevant, artistically relevant, economically relevant, or relevant in some sort of pop-culture kind of way.

Beyonce and Taylor Swift are a couple of the most wealthy musicians that ever lived but they aren't Mozart, Bach, Tchaikovsky, or Parker or Coltrane.

 

[High Fly]

I can so relate. the last time I went to a blues jam I asked the guitar player whether he wanted to do "Ain't no Sunshine" and he told me he didn't know how to play that song and starts noodling. Then his compadre chimes in that Ain't no Sunshine is not really a blues and starts Pink Floyd "Breathe". That's when you want to take a screwdriver and adjust those noisy potentiometers (in their brain).

I mean, wouldn't you just bore yourself to death, playing the same stuff for 30+ years?! Nope...just keep playing that stuff you learned when you were 18,,,and that's it!

 

[Quackhack]

Oh wow, as many as 200! And while they may be unknown, I assure you they're not the ordinary 9th grader.

The statement was made that the teaching of jazz has become - if I may paraphrase - too classical, too conservatory-like, too visual and insufficiently auditory. Then you claimed that because George Garzone, and Jerry Bergonzi, and a few other absolute top-flight musicians teach that it's an auditory art - that this doesn't exist. I then pointed out that the few dozen lucky players who learn from these masters are far from representative of the ordinary young student who's being introduced to jazz through their high school big band.

Do you have any kind of a response to that? The question was whether "jazz instruction" - not closely defined - was too non-auditory - and you have not, as far as I can see, addressed that with your stories about how a tiny fraction of genius players teach their tiny fraction of students.

Relax bro 😎

I said we need to agree on what level of education we’re talking about…this is the third time for me saying that. I’m not talking about 9th graders & marching band as I didn’t think that was the focus.

I also said “for every Mike Stern who studied with Charlie there are 200 relative unknowns that also studied with him.” There have been numerous heavies who are “known” who passed through Banacos’ studio…you’re smart & can do the math there. I personally know 5 very good players who had lengthy stays with Charlie Banacos, none of them “famous” really in the traditional sense (one won best bassist in Boston Music Awards a few years back).

 

[Quackhack]

Maybe this is a great niche for the private teacher who like the aforementioned Charlie Banacos can do well by doing good?

Sadly Charlie passed a few years ago 🙁
Banacos

Edit: adding text below about Charlie Banacos’ methods, as it’s relevant to the discussion at hand, particularly in light of more advanced student learning (not generalized 9th grade band instruction):

The ear-training methods devised by Banacos specifically for the improvising musician are imitated in college courses and ear-training routines by many educators around the world. His original concept of dealing with relative-pitch exercises, using cadences and recognition of one tone at a time to the progressing of the recognition of clusters of sounds in a key up to all twelve tones simultaneously, and also the memorization of pitches without reference to a key, was developed to enable musicians to hear equally well in tonal and atonal situations both in improvised situations and in pre-conceived settings.

Central to Banacos' ideas was his view that the teaching of ear-training techniques should be individually tailored to each musician, because each person has individual neurological pathways pre-arranged in the brain. According to Banacos, without proper ear-training advanced music making will sound mechanical and soulless.

 

[jamiejazz]

I can only hope this is true. Hopefully we will see future players who are creative and able to play in all sorts of situations rather than just able to make their way through an Abersold backing track playing finger memory patterns.

All those players you wish for are out there if you listen out for them. To me, this idea of an Aebersold factory producing lick spouting players is a bit of a myth or way in the minority. Most music teachers are pretty aware of different styles and kids I teach (in London) get involved in all sorts of scenes.

 

[goldenskyhook]

Harsh but so on point!
Prop to you for getting out there, whamptoncourt. You have helped me personally on my journey.

Brilliant! I'm 74 and started out with all the traditional pedagogy in high school. Such playing was 100% irrelevant to the amazing psychedelic, Blues, and R&B stuff that was happening. Every gig I've ever had relied on my improvisation and memory skills. I, too, ran an open Blues Jam for several years, and when other horn players dropped down, I stood with them and we improvised horn section parts on the fly!
I also did a tremendous amount of busking on the street, in San Francisco, my hometown of Madison, WI, Maui, Phoenix AZ, and Portland, OR. Other than making sure I chose a well-lit place, preferably before a colorful shop window, and had reasonably decent acoustics. I inspired people to dance past me, stop and listen, and (most importantly) give me MONEY! I needed NO accompaniment - not even a sampler or beat box (I did stomp my foot a lot, tho!)
I almost quit playing sax at 18, thinking that it had no place in modern music (The Dave Clark Five notwithstanding!) I got exposed to Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" and broke down in tears. I didn't choose to follow in his jazzy footsteps, since most of my musical idols at the time were Hendrix, Clapton, Page, etc. It was at that point that I realized my training was interfering greatly with my real skills, and set about "unlearning" it. After about 50 high-dose LSD trips, I had achieved my goals.
I wish you well!

 

[paulwl]

Learn the present day stereotypes about saxophone music and players. Stick to them religiously. There ain't much making your own opportunity these days, and nothing off the well beaten path.

 

[SuperAction80]

I understand a) completely...as I said, if someone offered me GOOD $ to noodle over 80 dj-spinned pop tunes, I would probably not say "no". I have certainly played gigs outside my wheelhouse just because I was available, even if it wasn't my bag.

And as you posited..I actually had a pretty good time, in the end. It wasn't what I wanted to concentrate my musical time on, regularly, but I cannot say I didn't enjoy the experience.

To sorta intimate that I am in a "purist midnset" (if you didn't mean to do that, I apologize, it seems like you sorta did) would be inaccurate.

If one is literally basing their earnings 100% on musical performance (with some teaching thrown in)...I get that. Heck, Marcus Miller used to play Country gigs in the 80's...just one example.

I guess I was more referring to is, I am of the time (been playing gigs since I was 16, I am 63 now) when "Live Music entertainment" referred to bands...a group of people with heartbeats who practiced (or maybe in the case of jazz just showed up and hit it with nothing beforehand but a rough setlist...maybeeeeee).

I have no problem with DJ's...they have been around and mainstream since Disco, after all. I just don't personally think an instrumentalist playing with a DJ (or significantly worse, pre-recorded tracks) = 'entertainment'.

I don't think I am being "purist' in that respect.

I literally don't find that entertaining, is all.
I think venues can raise that bar higher than that.

As I write this an interesting thing has come to my mind as I am writing this. I have no problem going out dancing to a DJ, just a DJ...when the purpose of going out is..... to dance.

But if the purpose if going out is to "see some music", so to speak, then I think a DJ or backing track structured performance is....um...kinda, ack.... lacking, let's say....from a spectator's perspective.

Just my opinion. And admittedly, being of that era I do find it a little unfortunate that this IS considered a norm of 'entertainment' these days. I am not really intending to be judgmental on those doing what they feel they need to do, though.

But being a thread about "how to remain relevant", I get that this apparently, might be ONE way to do that.....today....

I wasn't specifically calling you a purist, and maybe that's not even the correct word at all. There's a certain misconception I find myself falling into these days thinking that my particular preferred entertainment that I grew up with was the correct one. It's something I've become more aware of over the past few years.

My dad was a DJ for 47 years, so I have a little insight into that industry that you might find interesting. It kinda shaped my understanding of the psychology of entertainment. My dad was a musician before he went into audio. Picked up trumpet as a kid, mastered everything the schools were throwing at him, so he stopped practicing at home. My grandfather, still paying for the rental and not seeing my dad playing as much as he should, decided to take the instrument away from him. Tale as old as time. About 7 years later, my dad picked up guitar and was friends with quite a few accomplished players. He got into it enough to see what gigging life was. The politics, the drama, the fact that you were at the mercy of the weakest band member and their ability to show up to a gig. He saw the liabilities to potential income and ultimately just decided to give it up. Around that time, the DJ who was supposed to play his Junior Prom canceled. Both he and my grandfather were electronic and audio gurus, so he went home and grabbed some records, a record player, a home audio receiver/amp, and some speakers. Though it was a very amateur setup, he realized at that moment what he wanted to do.

Flash forward years later, he definitely tried to get me into his wheelhouse. As a child, I had absolutely no interest in music. Or rather, I had no interest in the hard rock and metal music of the late 80's and early 90's. MTV and VH1 videos were strange to me. I saw pop culture, but I didn't really care to get it. Around age ten, I finally wanted to make some noise with an instrument. I chose drums first, but dad shot that idea down knowing how loud they were. We compromised on my second choice, which he learned was also pretty noisy, and I was off to the races.

As the years went on, he encouraged me on my music and goals. He was teaching me about music and electronics. I often found myself bored with the music curriculum, and wouldn't practice. He never took the horn off of me, but found some saxophone songs that he thought I'd enjoy. As it turns out, I would just pick up the horn and try to pick out notes to the sounds I was hearing. Slowly, but surely, I was learning things.

Around this time, DJ'ing had a new form of competition. Karaoke. My dad could never stand the idiom. At that time, you had people who couldn't sing, would only drink glasses of water at the club, and would sound terrible through cheap mics and lousy PA speakers. It was the hot thing at the clubs, and it completely spat in the face of everything my dad trained himself to do well. It never did go away either. People like Karaoke. Heck, I've later learned that there are some Karaoke bars where off the clock professional singers like to hang out. I've hung out with them at those bars.

Flash forward a few more years, and I was getting into some gigging bands. My dad took the opportunity to expand his knowledge by purchasing a legit 20 channel Yamaha mixer. He wanted to get into live sound, and I gave him the perfect opportunity to do it. We were both learning how to run the board, and how to capture sound at the same time.

My dad passed away about 3 years ago, but we both watched how the idiom of DJ'ing changed. It's not only about being good on a mic and cross fading one song into another. The guy I was working with yesterday is a master of mixing small segments of any popular song you can think of. The goal is to get as many songs into the dance set as possible, and to make it one continual experience. It's absolutely crazy how these guys think these days, and I'm all about it. On my end, I inherited some very top of the line PA equipment. I took over a few car cruises, and will do a wedding from time to time, but knowing what I do know about modern DJ's, I'd never consider myself to be one. I did figure out, quite quickly, how to guage a dance floor though. Dad would always tell me that keeping the floor full wasn't as easy as it seems. I scoffed at the thought, because being a musician I was part of a band that was hired for a particular sound. A DJ doesn't have that luxury. As it turns out, when you have the ability to play anything, the honing in on what a particular crowd wants is far more difficult. Fortunately, I've been told a few things since I was a young child. Those lessons come back to mind when it mattered most.

Flash forward to Saturday night, I'm working right alongside one of the busiest trumpet players in town right after I showed one of the best DJ's in town how easy it is to mix a drumset into the music mix. I also learned that the digital drum ambience effect on my Yamaha board is also a selective harmonizer. Figured that one out when the trumpet player told me that his wireless system crapped out the night before (bad wire), and I hooked him up with a dynamic mic and stand. As he was sound checking, I put some of the drum ambience effect onto his channel assuming it was just a reverb effect. Turns out that said effect was a split low octave harmonizer that would only kick in on the lower parts of his range. Apparently, it's designed to be an enhancement for the kick drum and toms, but we both liked what it was doing for the trumpet, so we let it ride. Gig was really easy for us. Their song list was made up of mostly 90's to modern day rock, dance, and hip hop. We were just having fun the two of us making horn lines that acted as an enhancement to what was going on. We'd break off into little solos every now and again, but by in large we were just an added horn section.

At the end of the gig, we just laughed knowing how well we were paid and fed vs how little work we actually had to do. We've both had to do far more for far less. Wedding bands can be stressful, because you're usually getting set lists a day or two before the gig. Funny enough, it's about the same gig at the end of the day. If this is the form of entertainment people want, well I've been paying attention to the idiom for my entire life. I was raised into developing those particular types of skills for my entire musical career. Somehow, it's mixing everything I've learned into one gig. I can make time for that once or twice a month. The other gigs will be there when I'm done.

Not that the club scene is worth much these days. Gen Z largely doesn't drink, nor do they leave the house. They're too busy watching AI generated YouTube shorts. They do get married though, and someone in the family has a budget. Adapt, and earn. That's all you can do.