Not unusual for a beginner. Don't get discouraged - just keep working on those long tones! Keep at it!

 

what he said...

Another thing to think about is if you are sitting while playing you are losing some of your lung capacity. Try standing. some other aerobic exercise would benefit too (yeah listen to me I don't do it enough myself :wink:

 

If you smoke, now would be a good time to give it up. As for being a beginner, I hope the reeds your using aren't to hard. Most new players start on a soft reed like a # 1 1/2. After awhile when you breath control and embrouchure improves you can use harder reeds. Like 'meruhl' says, practice those long tones and practice,practice, and practice some more. You'll make it. Joe.

 

Being physically fit does not necessarily mean that the muscles used for playing are fit.

The muscles responsible for blowing air UNDER PRESSURE are the abdominals and intercostals (BETWEEN the ribs). Many other muscles assist in supporting this air under pressure, e.g those around the throat, pelvic floor, etc.

The diaphragm is responsible for inhaling deeply.

These will all develop with practice.

 

Excuse me if I'm stating the obvious, but you did say you're a beginner. Most beginners have a problem learning how to breathe properly. This can be especially troublesome for the older beginner who has been breathing improperly for years. People get accustomed to breathing by lifting their shoulders and/or expanding the chest cavity which makes it hard to learn diaphragmatic breathing. Examine your breathing technique. Do your shoulders move when you take a deep breath? If so, you're not using your diaphragm to its full potential. Here's a simple test. Stand against the wall so that your the entire front of your body is touching the wall. Then take a deep, rapid breath. If you're using proper breathing technique your stomach muscles should propel you away from the wall with such force that you almost lose your balance and fall over backward. Don't think about taking a breath. Concentrate on trying to push yourself away from the wall with your stomach. You'll notice that as you push your stomach out, your lungs will automatically fill with air. Also, you should practice breathing even when you're not playing. When you're just sitting around watching T.V. or whatever, practice breathing with your stomach and not with your lungs. When playing your horn, make sure you inhale by pushing your stomach out and that you exhale by pushing your stomach in. Again, I apologize if you already knew this but you'd be surprised how many horn players and singers do not.

 

Thanks for the responses!

I've never been a smoker and I am in very good aerobic shape doing a lot of distance swimming almost every day.

Jeff, I "failed" your wall test. I'll try to work on diaphragmatic breathing. I guess I"m surprised that it'll make a difference. As a physician, I've always thought that the reason we become breathless is because, through inadequate ventilation of the lungs, carbon dioxide builds up the the blood stream which the brain interprets as "air hunger". Does diaphragmatic breathing work simply because it's a more "efficient" way of ventilating while playing a wind instrument? Does it force the body to increase what exercise physiologists call it's tidal volume (the volume of air moved in each breath)? Sorry for being so technical but...I'm a bit of a nerd.

John

 

johnsax,

I recently returned to the sax after a 40 year layoff At first, I experienced the same problem you describe. Despite being able to run 10 miles, I would get breathless quickly on the sax. The answer has already been mentioned. You have to take in a very large volume of air quickly. Most of us breathe using chest expansion, which only permits a relatively small volume of air intake. On the other hand, if you learn to breathe with your diaphragm (practice!), you can take in a much larger volume of air quickly. And yes, it does increase the tidal volume. Long distance running coach Bill Dellinger used to have his runners practice diaphragm breathing as an efficient way to move air volume during high exertion.

It's like any other "muscle memory" situation. Once you learn how to do it, you'll never forget, you'll just (like me) get out of shape in this sense!

Hope this helps.

Al

 

au contraire!

I must disagree with Jeff's wall test. I've been singing all my life and playing various instruments. However, my stomach does not distend that much when I inhale. Even when it's a quick breath.

That said, learning anything new like this will require adjustment. I'm relatively new to the sax (2 years) and found myself out of breath when starting. Mostly, I had too much air!! At the end of phrases, I would find myself breathing out before I took in another breath. This made me feel out-of-breath when I think what really was happening was that I was concentrating so hard on tone, pitch, fingering, etc. that I wasn't breathing naturally. Don't worry, it goes away when you get more comfortable.

Also, you might experiment with a slightly more open mouthpiece than that recommended for a normal beginner. Normal beginners are younger and smaller than me. I'm 6'4" and 280 pounds. I've got way more air than a grade schooler or even many high schoolers. My problem is the opposite of theirs -- I need to bring both the airstream and the volume DOWN.

 

Troy is free to disagree if he wishes but the wall test is not original with me. It's been in use for years. I hope he won't take offense at this but just because a person has been singing and playing all of his life does not mean he is making the most efficient use of his breathing apparatus. Simply put, breathing is facilitated by the diaphragm. The best way to make full use of the diaphragm is by expanding the abdominal cavity, which creates a vacuum in the chest cavity thereby drawing air into the lungs. The further you push out your abdominal muscles, the larger the expansion and the greater volume that will be pulled into the lungs. As alsdiego pointed out above, you're able to take in a larger amount of air in a shorter amount of time. Also, as the abdominal muscles become stronger you're able to push the air back out of the lungs with greater force. That, coupled with a strong embouchure, enables you to concentrate the air stream and make more efficient use of the air you take in, thereby increasing your endurance. Trust me on this one. If you'll concentrate on throwing your stomach out as far as you can and as fast as you can you'll be amazed at how much air you take in in a split second.

 

I, too disagree with the wall test.

Sure, I acan pass it with flying colours, but I can equally well take an equally fast, full breath (heavily involving the diaphragm) where the stomach remains flat.

As the diaphragm flattens the gut is displaced (pressed down) by it. This displaced gut cannot compress (being primarily liquid or solid) and can either move forwards, distending the stomach as in the wall test, or by expanding the lower ribs (both the back and sides of the body), barely involving the front of the belly. I can regulate where this displaced gut goes, involving the stomach front, the ribs, or both.

As I understand it, singers are now more often taught lower rib expansion rather than stomach distending techniques.

In either case, the actual VOLUME of displacement is limited to the volume of the 'bell' shape of the diaphragm in its rest state. When the diaphragm is muscularly flattened (by full inhalation) this is the volume of gut moved down to push out the lower rib cage &/or the stomach.

Some people, particularly the elderly (I am only 55) no doubt have so little flexibility in their ribs that they are restricted in how big a breath they can take using lower ribs. For these people the wall test may be totally valid.

I am not a physician, but I know the fundamentals of fluid (including gas) dynamics, and understand the basic structures involved in the body. Please explain, if you have greater expertise, if there is fault in what I have written.

 

O.K. Whatever. I was wrong. Please forgive me for signing onto a tired old method that, though it's been accepted and taught for eons is obviously not the best method of breathing. Shame on all those ignorent Junior High Band Directors for forcing us to breathe from our abdomens. Who knew chest expansion was so wonderful? I repent in sackcloth and ashes and promise never to share the folly of my 35 years of training and experience again.

 

Jeff
I have posted this link several times on the old forum. You might find it helpful.

http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/1999/04/000786.txt

It is an abstract: ALL THAT STUFF ABOUT THE DIAPHRAGM

Also the former Tubaist with the Chicago Symphony, Arnold Jacobs, has done serious study and developed gadgets for measuring lung capacity, air pressure, etc. His reaseon - he had only one lung. Someone may know of publications regarding his work.

The normal breathing cycle, I believe, is long inhale and short exhale. That needs to be reversed for wind instrument playing. Jacobs could tell by sound produced whether a player (or singer) was doing the appropriate breathing cycle efficiently, and could suggest remedies for notable improvement for most.

 

MS: Interesting essay. I agree with it.

 

Jeff, in "The Art of Saxophone Playing" which is probably the best reference for saxophone playing, Larry Teal also promotes this type of diaphram breathing. He states that this is a learned way of breathing and not the same as regular breathing.

 

That´s the way to go! Breathe with your stomach, when you inhale make sure your stomach expands, not your chest. That´s the way to fill up your lungs properly.

 

Don't worry, it's a common problem. I remember when I was first starting at the age of 10, I would (literally) breathe at the beginning of every note! That improved over a few years, and then I switched to clarinet for a year. Whenever I picked back up the sax and started playing again, I was amazed at how much better I was than before I had switched to clarinet! Lesson to be learned: All beginners deal with it. It's just something that improves over time.

A few things to be aware of that might help your situation:
-Smoking will limit your lung capacity severely (some say it helps, but what do you think they're smoking?)
-Obviously, exercise will help, but you need to become good at a "controlled" air flow, releasing air at different forces and amounts, less air for a quieter sound, more for a loud sound
-If you can hold your breath for over 1 minute, you probably have high enough lung capacity to play even bari

 

breathe deep

Johnsax

I have been a beginner on woodwind several times. First on clarinet, then bass clarinet, and now tenor sax. Each time I had the problem you describe. I always had to remind myself to breathe deep. As if about to swim a great distance under water. A HUGE BREATH!

I don't know much about diaphrams and such (I think my ex-girlfriend did) or wall breathing but I do know that I can finish a phrase with adequate air if I take a DEEP breath, a HUGE breath.

 

Breathing techniques

Breathing from the diaphram is often talked about in stress managemant,yoga and meditation. In some meditation, breathing is what is the focal point. All this to underline the importance of the breathing from the diaphram. It gives our body more of the oxygen it needs to function in a less heightened need, more relaxed, state.

 

A couple of things that helped me: Practise breathing so that you feel the waist on your back, either side of your spine, expanding - this will be the last place that fills with air. Even with strenous exercise, I do not believe you use this because you usually have a rhythmic breath pattern in time with your exercise. What you are doing here is learning to fill to maximum capacity, and this also helps with good air support that generally contributes to good sax playing. Another good tip is breathe out befor e breathing in.

Something else to learn is to plan when to breathe when playing a piece. You will not recover quickly if you have really exhausted your breath, so look for places where you can snatch a breath, even if it is only a quick gasp. This way, you will manage your breathing better so you do not overdo it. This is an area I am still working on after several years of serious study, and some pieces are a real challenge. When I talk to my kids about this, all of whom learn wind instruments, I always say to think of phrases like talking - you have expression, emphasis and you have to take time for breath. It actually sounds more musical in most cases if you phrase the delivery, and breathing is part of it.

Although I keep fit with lots of strenuous sport, I am also slightly asthmatic and I really have to work at breathing for sax playing. I find it helpful to warm up before performing and as I say, on challenging pieces, mark the music to show yourself where to breathe. Good luck.