Do not know how open your stack keys are but lowering them will make the notes bellow C#2 flat. Not making the the low notes high but lowering the high notes might be the solution. Might want to have someone play your horn to see if the problem is not the way you play it.

 

Have you had it set up?
I didn’t know how bad my horns were until I did.

You probably answered your own question if you are playing the mouthpiece 1/2 step flat.
That would make sense

 

(...)
You probably answered your own question if you are playing the mouthpiece 1/2 step flat.
That would make sense

Hmm... no, that wouldn't make a lot of sense. A too loose embouchure would make the palm keys sharp. The best hope of the OP is to have his friend test the horn. Is the neck original to the horn?

 

It’s a sax, and an old Conn.
Put the tuner away and hear it, play it. I’d suggest getting a smaller tip mouthpiece. 10Ms are really mouthpiece friendly, so I’d try that.
I had an original closet queen 10Ms and the set up was with the key height very open.

 

It's a sax, and an old Conn.
Put the tuner away and hear it, play it. I'd suggest getting a smaller tip mouthpiece. 10Ms are really mouthpiece friendly, so I'd try that.
I had an original closet queen 10Ms and the set up was with the key height very open.

1+++!!! Such great advice! I've been playing my '61 10M very happily for a couple of years now, and I just drove myself crazy, trying to play along with a tuner and it seemed to be all over the place, even though it sounded fine, by ear.

 

Something that happens with some players is that they play too high on the mouthpiece (input) pitch which requires pulling out to tune the saxophone. Lengthening the instrument affects the "short tube" notes more than the "long tube" notes---hence the palm key notes are then flat. Check the pitch of the mouthpiece alone. It should be no higher than G concert---lower for a jazz sound. Check the pitch of the mouthpiece + neck. It should be close to E concert.

Rather than tuning to F#2, try tuning to F#1. Then check the pitch of F#2 with that mouthpiece setting both with and without the octave key. Find the place on the cork where all 3 are in closest agreement. Last finger low B and overblow to F#2 with that fingering. That should be a good match for the F#2 with the regular fingering.

You can also check the key openings of the palm keys. The Yamaha "recommended" opening for all of the tenor palm keys is 4.5 mm. If the opening is less than this, either sand the cork on the feet of the keys or install a thinner cork. It doesn't hurt to be a bit more open than this amount other than increasing the key travel.

 

I'm no expert, but I've noticed that reed strength and mouthpiece choice can have a dramatic positive or negative effect on intonation.

 

+1

 

My '63 10M has flat altissimo for me also. The keys above D are flat unless I "sing them," thinking as if I were singing instead of playing sax. I think this makes me loosen up my jaw and open my throat a bit to help them be where they should be. But I'm still struggling with the flatness of the altissimo G. The fingering for G# almost works for G if I lip down! But I can't get anything but ghost whispers on the G. Kudos to you that you can get the G! We'll get it solved eventually, right? I can't take in person lessons from my teacher, and the altissimo is hard to mess with over Zoom...

But 10Ms have such sweet tone. It makes you want to keep trying.

 

There is no such thing as flat altissimo, only wrong fingerings and technique. If your G is flat, use a different fingering.

 

Thanks. I have tried every G fingering I'm aware of. I have Robert A. Luckey's "Saxophone Altissimo for the Contemporary Player." It has helped me find fingerings for all the other notes on all my horns. There is probably something wrong with the way I'm approaching tenor.

 

Have you checked the neck to make sure it is free of mung or objects? Also check for neck tenon leaks.

 

I feel your pain, I've been there. I got completely neurotic and unhappy ended up buying a Series II Selmer haha, I can't deny that made my life much easier intonation wise...

In addition to the great advice above (key heights, mouthpiece, playing only on the mouthpiece and/or neck to check your pitch)

1) ALL saxes are out of tune, and out of tune is relative anyway, each note should be tune differently depending on context:

2) I think using your ears over your eyes is important, electric tunes can send you mad. If it SOUNDS okay it is okay. I found playing with a drone helpful.

3) Remember it's all about context. E.g if you're playing jazz, intonation is less rigid and can be used more expressively (I'll cite the usual examples of Stitt, Jackie Mclean, Charlie Rouse...). If you're recording or doing pop sessions that's a different story!

4) You could try working on pitch flexibility (note bends). If you have lots of control over the pitch, and then really listen as you play, that should help.

Good luck! I know how miserable this can be!!

 

For sure! I'll go with my ears, from now on. They worked fine, through years of singing and guitar tuning, so I have no reason to doubt them, now. The technical mumbo jumbo goes back in my piano bench!

 

I keep forgetting to respond in my own thread, ha. I just wanted to thank everybody for the advice and give a little update. After a little more experimenting, I decided that moving up a grade in reed strength from 2.5 to 3 was the way to go. I made the right choice; it's already really helped with intonation in the upper register and altissimo! I'm adjusting fairly quickly to the harder reed, and I'm far less frustrated. I do have to experiment with fingerings in altissimo like others have mentioned, but that's par for the course! I'm slowly but surely figuring out what works for me. I'll still update when my friend tries her out, for good measure. And yeah, electric tuners tend to drive me wild! They're handy for sure, but I find playing with a drone better as well. Cheers, all!

EDIT: I forgot to mention, CatDuet: "But 10Ms have such sweet tone. It makes you want to keep trying." You got that right! A 10m is a sweet horn.

 

Well, I've been playing 10M and 16M Conns since 1978 and have never noticed any tuning anomalies. Am I the weird one? I also think the keywork is quite comfortable and easy to get around on.

 

Just my digital tuner. Once I got my mpc location dialed in a bit better, I'm not so "all over the place" as it seemed to be. I still prefer my ear over the electronic response.

 

I can't make heads or tails of this thread and the issue described for a bunch of different reasons, but I want to add one thing, that begins as a question: do a lot of you tune to F#1 or F#2? That is really strange to me, especially because some horns (e.g. Martin Committee and King Super 20 tenors) have always seemed to me to have some very weird tuning, in some cases, on E2/F2F#2.

I don't know that I've ever met anybody that I knew to tune to F#??? It's possible I have and it just never was revealed to me that that was their method.

OP: you might get different results if you try using B2 as your tuning note. Your results with that tuning may be easier to understand/address. Where your mouthpiece sits on the cork will definitely change the relationship of different registers of the horn to each other.

 

In my playing experience, most concert bands and jazz ensembles tune to both A and Bb concert. My practice of tuning to F# on alto is related to that experience. When playing tenor I generally tune to it's A concert which is B natural. I find it valuable to finger low B natural and check the tuning of the first and second overtones as part of the tuning process on both saxes to check both the "long tube" and "short tube" notes to "cover all the bases".

 

Personally I would never tune to F# as it's a poorly vented note when fingered normally, and alternate F# keys vary a lot in design, size of tone hole, location of tone hole, etc., plus the dependency on pad height. I tune to middle G no matter what horn I'm playing, as it's a well vented note that's in the middle of the tube length. If an ensemble is tuning to Bb, that's F on tenor (easy to hear if a fifth is in tune) and Bb on baritone.

But what I really do is to get close, then tune to the rest of the ensemble. If I have a tuner with me, I'll check notes all over the horn just as a reality check.

 

I achieve good results using Curt Altarac's balanced tuning method where all of the stack keys are opened enough to allow what he calls the "undervented" notes C, A, F#, E, D to speak clearly and with a "full voice". If key heights that are too low make F# a poor note to tune to, there are going to be other voicing problems as well in my experience. The bottom line is we each do what works the best for us. My jazz instructor who plays professionally tunes his Yamaha alto to middle C#, the flattest note on the instrument. He plays all the other notes in tune by listening and automatically adjusting the pitch down. He said he likes that tuning since he never has to lip C# up.

 

I just tune to whatever note I hear the piano or guitar play during setup, and it works out fine. If I have to adjust in the first couple of bars of the first tune, so be it.

 

Let's not overthink the tuning thing, either. The only result of tuning up is to place the mouthpiece at a position on the cork. Variations in tuning over the range of the instrument will still exist; some of them can be managed by mechanical adjustments of the instrument (but you don't do these on the fly, they're done at the repair bench) and the rest have to be managed by the player. What you need is a note that's generally representative of the pitch of the whole horn (an average, so to speak). And then you hope your tuning reference (if it's another instrument) is also a note that's generally representative of that instrument's tuning. Ever tuned to a piano in an overheated room with the back door open and cold air streaming in, right onto the piano? Right side of piano almost a quarter tone sharp, left side almost a quarter tone flat. Whaddya do?

 

Good point, Turf!

 

There is so much at play with tuning.

My first advice to anyone with tuning issues is "Don't use a digital tuner". Learn to hear what "in-tune" sounds like, best way to do that is to play with drones (a held note with a good quality sound), and listen for beating and difference tones. I remember my clarinet teacher showing me how to listen for the roots of chords when we played an interval - playing an E and G together should produce an audible C two octaves plus a third below the E. Play with a drone and listen for the results - open fifths produce a tone an octave below the lower note, 4ths produce one two octaves below the top note, etc. Playing the same note slightly out of tune should create beats as the pitches go in and out of phase - the faster the beats, the more out of tune.

My second advice is to learn to play in tune with others, when your horn is in tune with itself. I play a B2, then "slur" to an overblown B1. That is, move your fingers so that you are fingering low B, but keep the pitch the same. Adjust the mouthpiece so that these two version of the B2 are in tune. Then learn to play your horn with the mouthpiece in that position. (Note that if your horn is very badly regulated this might not work well...)

Finally, remember the lead trumpet player's advice "It's better to be sharp than in tune". ... That's a joke, but like all good ones there is a kernel of truth in it. Many great saxophonists live on the sharp side of things.

 

And some, like Jackie McLean, are all over the d*** place.

I'm not dumping on JM, just acknowledging the range of possible approaches and expectations for tuning.

A very good young player in New Orleans once commented to me about Coltrane how he had a hard time with how not in-tune a lot of Coltrane's recordings are, especially soprano. At first, I was aghast. Then I listened again. Oh lawd. He was right. But I don't have a hard time with it, because my hearing's not as good, or maybe just not as sensitive about that one thing, as his.

But I still think OP's question would make more sense to me as far as trouble shooting if he would tune to B2 instead, and report back on his results.

 

I have a 1949 Conn 10m, beautifully restored. Its serial number ends with an L which I understand stands for low. I'm having difficulty with flat notes in the upper register. I've experimented with different mouthpieces, including the original Conn as well as an old Selmer, and with different reeds, including synthetics by Fibracell and Bari. The horn sounds great when I'm playing alone but I'm playing in a 100+ yo town band composed of solid musicians (I do not claim to be one) and being flat in the upper register won't do. I'm tempted to return to my old Selmer Bundy which isn't as full as the 10m but I've found to be more consistent in high, middle and low registers. I'm wondering if the L in my Conn's serial number indicates a need for a more disciplined embouchure in the upper register than I'm delivering. Alternatively, maybe the 10m just isn't the right concert band instrument for me.

 

"L" just means it's low pitch, i.e., standard pitch, i.e. A=440 as opposed to high pitch of A=457 which is totally unusable with modern instruments.

I don't know the exact thing that's causing your issue, but I can tell you like I posted three years ago that I've been playing these horns since 1978 and if properly set up (which is not particularly sensitive or exotic, just normal key heights) they have excellent intonation over the fulll range of the horn. It's most likely you're playing wicked sharp, thus pulled way way out, which will mean that if you're in tune on a middle note the short tube notes'll be flat and the long tube notes sharp. Are you maybe a clarinetist who hasn't adapted to the differences of the sax embouchure and voicing?

 

Thanks for the good thoughts. Played alto until recently, not a clarinet.

 

Tenor requires a much looser embouchure than alto. Push the mouthpiece in a bit @oldgibman, and loosen up your death grip on the reed. Your tone will improve and you’ll be in tune.

 

I have a 1947 Conn 10M that I have to lip those palm keys (Eb3 to F3) up. Someone suggested to me pushing the mouthpiece on further. I was surprised that this did in fact help. The 10M is very flexible in pitch so it didn't long to adjust to playing this way. I still have to lip those top notes up a bit.