[FatJudy]

Hi folks! My name is John, and I've been a lurker here for some time but I finally made the decision to join up today. I've tried my hand at scouring the forum history, but I've decided that it's best just to create a new thread. If there's an existing thread(s) that I missed, I apologize in advance. Over the past six months, I have had a real blast playing my 1960 Conn 10m tenor. I've played sax since elementary school, but never seriously (at all), and I took a two year break after graduating high school. Since I got my 10m this past December, I've been playing pretty much everyday, sometimes four or five hours a day. Many things have been learnt, many small issues have been dealt with, and yet I have one serious problem that I just can't seem to figure out.

Essentially, the horn plays flat (relative to itself) in the extreme upper register. There are quirky notes elsewhere, but nothing out of the ordinary for an old sax. This issue is different. Tuned to F#2, the horn plays mostly in tune from low Bb to D3. The only exception is G2, which is sharp and a royal pain in my ***, but that's not alarming. The issue is that for every note I play above D3, intonation flattens almost exponentially. Eb3 is okay, I just lip it up a bit and it's in tune. E is not excellent, and I really have to lip it up. Even then, it's often ten or fifteen cents flat. F is just plain impossible. I know I don't have the most developed embouchure on the planet, but I really have to strangle the thing just for it to register as an F on the tuner, variably between 30 and 40 cents flat. That's on the palm keys, of course, but the front fingerings have exactly the same result. I've checked the pads to see if they're opening far enough, and sure enough they certainly are; I took the palm keys off and the problem persisted. The right hand side key which opens for E and F also opens quite far enough. I have a leak light, and have previously inspected the body of the horn for leaks, and it's all good.

At this point I should probably mention my mouthpiece. I play an Otto Link STM NY 7* and Vandoren Java reeds, 2.5 strength. I tried a Vandoren ZZ strength 3, and while it's difficult for me to play the harder reed at this point, my intonation up top improved a bit (by around 10 cents) yet the problem persisted. If I push my piece all the way in, of course the top will play in tune but then the rest of the horn is out of the park sharp. I have not ruled myself out as the cause, and of course as a beginner player with a good horn/mouthpiece combo I am the prime suspect. By nature I play the mouthpiece relatively loose, around a semitone below Concert G, but I'm training my chops to default to that standard which seems to be the recommended norm from what I've read here and elsewhere online.

What else can I say... ah. I've been a good boy practicing my overtones along with Rascher's book, and as for altissimo I am just beginning to be able to hit G with some accuracy. It's worth noting that altissimo F#, played with the fingering of Front F plus side Bb key, is quite flat, and actually registers as an F about 20 cents sharp. When I add the lower body stack F (first) key to that configuration, it sharpens up to 15 or 10 cents flat. While I can't get to G reliably, when I do it seems to be just around 10 cents flat (so not too bad).

Now I'm not sure if the phenomenon is due to the extreme upper register being heinously flat, or whether it's actually the body stack playing super sharp. I have absolutely no further ideas on what to do by myself, so I thought I'd post this here. In the near future I plan to have a friend who is a (prodigiously) excellent saxophonist test out my setup, to see whether it really is just me. If it ain't just me, I suppose I'll try and find a good tech to check her out.

Thanks in advance,

John

 

[Bokudesu]

Do not know how open your stack keys are but lowering them will make the notes bellow C#2 flat. Not making the the low notes high but lowering the high notes might be the solution. Might want to have someone play your horn to see if the problem is not the way you play it.

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Have you had it set up?
I didn’t know how bad my horns were until I did.

You probably answered your own question if you are playing the mouthpiece 1/2 step flat.
That would make sense

 

[Alain Gen]

(...)
You probably answered your own question if you are playing the mouthpiece 1/2 step flat.
That would make sense

Hmm... no, that wouldn't make a lot of sense. A too loose embouchure would make the palm keys sharp. The best hope of the OP is to have his friend test the horn. Is the neck original to the horn?

 

[whaler]

It’s a sax, and an old Conn.
Put the tuner away and hear it, play it. I’d suggest getting a smaller tip mouthpiece. 10Ms are really mouthpiece friendly, so I’d try that.
I had an original closet queen 10Ms and the set up was with the key height very open.

 

[saxoclese]

Something that happens with some players is that they play too high on the mouthpiece (input) pitch which requires pulling out to tune the saxophone. Lengthening the instrument affects the "short tube" notes more than the "long tube" notes---hence the palm key notes are then flat. Check the pitch of the mouthpiece alone. It should be no higher than G concert---lower for a jazz sound. Check the pitch of the mouthpiece + neck. It should be close to E concert.

Rather than tuning to F#2, try tuning to F#1. Then check the pitch of F#2 with that mouthpiece setting both with and without the octave key. Find the place on the cork where all 3 are in closest agreement. Last finger low B and overblow to F#2 with that fingering. That should be a good match for the F#2 with the regular fingering.

You can also check the key openings of the palm keys. The Yamaha "recommended" opening for all of the tenor palm keys is 4.5 mm. If the opening is less than this, either sand the cork on the feet of the keys or install a thinner cork. It doesn't hurt to be a bit more open than this amount other than increasing the key travel.

 

[Honkermann]

I'm no expert, but I've noticed that reed strength and mouthpiece choice can have a dramatic positive or negative effect on intonation.

 

[CatDuet]

My '63 10M has flat altissimo for me also. The keys above D are flat unless I "sing them," thinking as if I were singing instead of playing sax. I think this makes me loosen up my jaw and open my throat a bit to help them be where they should be. But I'm still struggling with the flatness of the altissimo G. The fingering for G# almost works for G if I lip down! But I can't get anything but ghost whispers on the G. Kudos to you that you can get the G! We'll get it solved eventually, right? I can't take in person lessons from my teacher, and the altissimo is hard to mess with over Zoom...

But 10Ms have such sweet tone. It makes you want to keep trying.

 

[lydian]

There is no such thing as flat altissimo, only wrong fingerings and technique. If your G is flat, use a different fingering.

 

[CatDuet]

There is no such thing as flat altissimo, only wrong fingerings and technique. If your G is flat, use a different fingering.

Thanks. I have tried every G fingering I'm aware of. I have Robert A. Luckey's "Saxophone Altissimo for the Contemporary Player." It has helped me find fingerings for all the other notes on all my horns. There is probably something wrong with the way I'm approaching tenor.

 

[lydian]

Thanks. I have tried every G fingering I'm aware of. I have Robert A. Luckey's "Saxophone Altissimo for the Contemporary Player." It has helped me find fingerings for all the other notes on all my horns. There is probably something wrong with the way I'm approaching tenor.

The standard octave, front F and side Bb works for me. This thread has some other ideas for 10M altissimo and a link to Pete's altissimo fingering chart for the 10M (but almost none of Pete's fingerings work for me).

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?59878-10M-altissimo-fingering
https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-altissimo

Are you a classical or jazz/pop/rock player? The classical approach is quite different, if Rascher's fingerings are any indication.

I see you occasionally use Fibracell reeds. Synthetic can make altissimo more difficult. So stick with cane until you get good at it. I also see your reeds are on the hard side. That should make altissimo a bit easier.

In any case, altissimo varies from horn to horn and person to person. Sometimes a flat note can be raised by closing some right hand tone holes. So try experimenting with your own combinations, not limited to what you find in fingering charts.

 

[DarrellMass]

It's a sax, and an old Conn.
Put the tuner away and hear it, play it. I'd suggest getting a smaller tip mouthpiece. 10Ms are really mouthpiece friendly, so I'd try that.
I had an original closet queen 10Ms and the set up was with the key height very open.

1+++!!! Such great advice! I've been playing my '61 10M very happily for a couple of years now, and I just drove myself crazy, trying to play along with a tuner and it seemed to be all over the place, even though it sounded fine, by ear.

 

[pontius]

Have you checked the neck to make sure it is free of mung or objects? Also check for neck tenon leaks.

 

[Morph1590]

I feel your pain, I've been there. I got completely neurotic and unhappy ended up buying a Series II Selmer haha, I can't deny that made my life much easier intonation wise...

In addition to the great advice above (key heights, mouthpiece, playing only on the mouthpiece and/or neck to check your pitch)

1) ALL saxes are out of tune, and out of tune is relative anyway, each note should be tune differently depending on context:

2) I think using your ears over your eyes is important, electric tunes can send you mad. If it SOUNDS okay it is okay. I found playing with a drone helpful.

3) Remember it's all about context. E.g if you're playing jazz, intonation is less rigid and can be used more expressively (I'll cite the usual examples of Stitt, Jackie Mclean, Charlie Rouse...). If you're recording or doing pop sessions that's a different story!

4) You could try working on pitch flexibility (note bends). If you have lots of control over the pitch, and then really listen as you play, that should help.

Good luck! I know how miserable this can be!!

 

[DarrellMass]

For sure! I'll go with my ears, from now on. They worked fine, through years of singing and guitar tuning, so I have no reason to doubt them, now. The technical mumbo jumbo goes back in my piano bench!

 

[FatJudy]

I keep forgetting to respond in my own thread, ha. I just wanted to thank everybody for the advice and give a little update. After a little more experimenting, I decided that moving up a grade in reed strength from 2.5 to 3 was the way to go. I made the right choice; it's already really helped with intonation in the upper register and altissimo! I'm adjusting fairly quickly to the harder reed, and I'm far less frustrated. I do have to experiment with fingerings in altissimo like others have mentioned, but that's par for the course! I'm slowly but surely figuring out what works for me. I'll still update when my friend tries her out, for good measure. And yeah, electric tuners tend to drive me wild! They're handy for sure, but I find playing with a drone better as well. Cheers, all!

EDIT: I forgot to mention, CatDuet: "But 10Ms have such sweet tone. It makes you want to keep trying." You got that right! A 10m is a sweet horn.

 

[turf3]

Well, I've been playing 10M and 16M Conns since 1978 and have never noticed any tuning anomalies. Am I the weird one? I also think the keywork is quite comfortable and easy to get around on.

 

[DarrellMass]

Just my digital tuner. Once I got my mpc location dialed in a bit better, I'm not so "all over the place" as it seemed to be. I still prefer my ear over the electronic response.

 

[ptung]

I can't make heads or tails of this thread and the issue described for a bunch of different reasons, but I want to add one thing, that begins as a question: do a lot of you tune to F#1 or F#2? That is really strange to me, especially because some horns (e.g. Martin Committee and King Super 20 tenors) have always seemed to me to have some very weird tuning, in some cases, on E2/F2F#2.

I don't know that I've ever met anybody that I knew to tune to F#??? It's possible I have and it just never was revealed to me that that was their method.

OP: you might get different results if you try using B2 as your tuning note. Your results with that tuning may be easier to understand/address. Where your mouthpiece sits on the cork will definitely change the relationship of different registers of the horn to each other.

 

[saxoclese]

In my playing experience, most concert bands and jazz ensembles tune to both A and Bb concert. My practice of tuning to F# on alto is related to that experience. When playing tenor I generally tune to it's A concert which is B natural. I find it valuable to finger low B natural and check the tuning of the first and second overtones as part of the tuning process on both saxes to check both the "long tube" and "short tube" notes to "cover all the bases".