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Clipper,

If you still have these saxes, complete serial numbers would be helpful as well as pictures. I am doing a study on the Cavalier serial numbers in ab attempt to derive a dating sequence similar to those done for Conn and Pan American. The models for your instrumetns are 92M for the Alto and 96N for the Tenor. Cavalier was launched in 1931, so the low numbers you are indicating would definitely fall between 1930 and 1935. With lainch in 1931, I am assuming 1930 production for the ealiest models.
Thanks,
K

 

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Hello again Stocker,
I hope we make a more direct contact to exchange learning experience. We agree on many issues regarding Cavalier. Cavalier was launced in March 1931 by annoucement in the trades with initial model line shown at the Chicago trade show that June. They were made by and marketed through the Pan American division of Conn. The most recent advertising for the line I have been able to find is 1947. There is a belief in the brass forums that Cavalier ceased in 1948. The advertising would seem to confirm that.
During it's time period, I believe that Cavalier and Pan American had separate models and serial numbers, even if the basic instrument was a modified or simplified Pan American. The only potential exception may be sousaphones. Additionally Cavalier had a very limited line.
Most Cavalier lines started their serial number systems with a leading "0". So far the main brasses seem to have ended the leading "0" around 20000. the trombones after 5000 but before 6000, the Clarinets around 15000 and the saxes around 5000. I have not found any Cavalier sousaphones with less than a 6 digit serial number and there have been none with leading "0".
Kurt

 

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I am contiuing to gather Cavalier brass and reed serial numbers alomg with Pan American brass. I have in Cavalier 204 Brass and maybe 108 reeds. I say maybe, because of what is next:
In the Pan American survey, I have 672 brass instruments with 22% stencil. So I am getting close to what I believe is a better ratio of 25%, considering Cavalier is at 30%
But here's the Pan rub - Blessing is the mid 1950's (at least 1957)seems to be involved with Pan Am. I have or seen 4 examples of 1957 Blessing valve block trumpets with Pan Am bells. The 75000+ serial numbers work with the Blessing system. Today, I found a Blessing Alto Sax with Pan Am design and a Pan Am serial number. I would enjoy any comments on this.
This is the time When Paul Gazlay assumed the reign of Conn. Keep in mind he was the long time head of Continental Music Co, the Conn Chicago dstributership, with multiple lines.
On a related side, I am seeing Pan Am 500000 and 600000 serial numbers. Based on the Allied Catalog, Conn may have forced all lines to the main brass numbers at 500001. Thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Kurt

 

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It seems pretty well accepted that Conn unified all their serials to the main Conn brass line in 1955 at 500001. It's also been assumed that this coincided with Pan-American being replaced by the Director models, although I have heard a small handful of reports of post-1955 serialed Pan Ams. Never seen one myself, but with oddities like that it's always possible the bell isn't original to the instrument. Especially in a situation where the Director and Pan-Am parts are mostly if not all interchangeable, plus being student instruments where originality isn't a concern, I wouldn't be surprised if mixing and matching Pan-Am and Director parts was standard practice in school inventories and rental fleets.

Blessing bought stencils from Conn for their saxophone line, even up into the 1970s. I've heard that Blessing valve blocks appeared in instruments from a number of different makers - I understand Bundy trumpets and cornets used Blessing valve blocks for many years.

Blessing valve blocks in Pan-Americans, though, seems unusual. At first I'd wonder if it was done to use up an excess supply of parts, but they could've just used Director valve blocks for that. Maybe Blessing took over the rights to Pan-American and either bought Conn's stock of bells or engraved their own? Still... seems odd, and a great length to go to.

We are arriving at a potential new insight on Pan American. In the trumpetmaster.com forums identified are a Pan American Cornet and Trumpet with 600000+ serial numbers. This would seemingly put them as 1957 models. I recently have also found a Pan Am euphonium with 600000+ serial number Today I found an alto sax with 600000+ serial number. I have also found 2 trombones with a 500000+ serial number. Additionally I have found 5 1957 Blessing stencil trumpets carrying Pan American bells. While this is few in number, the indication is that Pan American did carry on as a line into 1957 with both in-house made and stenciled products. There is a certain sense or logic to this as Paul Gazlay (Continental Music Co) was the head of Conn Ltd at this time and was very familiar with stenciling under the Continental name and the sale of multiple lines.
I have written to Blessing to identify what they may have on this.

As to dating the saxes, has anyone started with the Allied list adjusted for 50,000 or 35, 000. I have new information that seems to indicate Pan American may have actually started in 1917 with the "America First" line. I have recorded a C Melody P4340C under the America First name.
I have stated collecting the serial numbers Pan Am saxes as a resource to separate stencils of Pan Am from Cavalier. Does anyone know an effective way to do this? So far it looks like Cavalier dropped the leading "0" at around 5000 and Pan Am continues the leading "P" to around 30,000.

Stocker has been in touch with me about combining Cavalier serial number lists. I am at 112 reeds and 206 brass at this time.
Kurt

 

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For reference, I have a Pan-American flute I got from the original owner with the bill of sale
September 11, 1954, new flute #153971 $169.00 + $3.38 Arizona sales tax.
A warranty card is attached to the handle and has all the P-A info but on the face page it has both P-A and Cavalier labels so I guess the Cavs were a division of P-A.

Bruce,
You are correct about Cavalier, it was a line of Pan American that was launched in March of 1931 and first shown at the Chicago trade show in June of that year. I wonder if reeds and wood winds were under the same serial number system. I have recorded a "licorice stick" clarinet with a serial number 151xxx that was indiated to be a 1950's instrument - no proof like yours offered. The difficulty with sales receipts thoough, is the potential length of time an instrument can be in dealer inventory. An extreme example is a friend of mine bought a 1980's Holton cornet in the early 2000's. It was brand new!! It was in the dealers warehouse all those years and forgotten.
It is accepted and looks to be true that the saxes were separate from reeds in both lines.
I am currently working with Stocker and hope to have some findings soon. In the mean time I will contiue to gather serial numbers. As the count grows trends are coming to light in both Cavalier and Pan American. Some of the key information is the start and dropping of different models.
Best regards,
Kevin

 

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The saga continues and the serial numbers gathered continues to grow. I am now convinced, that while the systems and models were separate, Pan American serial numbers can be a guide for dating Cavaliers. How does this happen? The Continental stencils of Cavalier and Pan American horns. The Continental stencil on brass instruments was up until 1933 an import line. This comes from my 1932/33 catalog. After that Continental changed to using Cavalier and Pan American Instruments under the the Continental name. While first launched without distinction, eventually Cavaliers were stenciled Cadet or Clarion, while Pan American's were stenciled Colonial. So if you have a Continental stencil instrument, please submit for this survey. The serial number and model are significant. I have sent this idea to Stocker along with a numerical relationship idea between the Pan Am Sax and Pan Am brass lines compared to Pan Am sax and Conn sax lines. If I have it correct, the door may be opening.
In the brasses a data point that is showing is in the Baritone line. Only one model seems to have been made the 96I. I have not been able to identify any changes to it over its life cycle. The serial numbers gathered seem to confirm the dating of 1942 for the end. There is a large relative space between the highest serial number obtained so far and the highest overall brass serial number. The launch was 1936 based on the brochures I have so far.
Remember these are as of yet preliminary indicators as the sample size is not sufficient to support conclusions.
I have sent to the Conn Loyalist and some others a very preliminary Cavalier dating system for comment. As indicated, I do not have a statistically valid sample yet, but want to get some opinions from some experts.
On an unrelated front, I have found that Elkhart Band Instruments was incorporated September 29, 1919. That's just 2 months after Pan American was incorporated. Additionally, the Elkhart Band Instrument name has appeared in the trades as early as November 1918 as part of the organizing of the National Musical Merchandise Association of the United States. The trademark of the Elk and the Heart was first used 9/13/1922, but was not registered until 8/5/1947.
Kurt

 

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It's been a while since my last update, but I continue to gather as many serial numbers as I can.
As of now I have 256 Cavalier brass, 163 Cavalier reed, 735 Pan American brass and 324 Pan American reeds.
I am currently doing some house cleaning on the Pan American sample. I hope to publish some findings this weekend.

 

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Been a while, since I last updated.
The Cavalier brass is at 268 with reeds at 175. I have started a Cavalier model to see how it holds up, even though I don't have aviable count yet.
A new Pan American brass dating model has been published on the Conn Loyalist and horn-u-copia sites. It's been about 10 days since publishing and so far it's holding up. I will continue gathering brass Pan Am serial numbers (now at 763) to make sure the model doesn't need tweeking.
On the Pan Am reed side I am at 353 reeds with 284 saxes. While still at below viable sample level, I will be doing some basic analysis on these. I have confirmed based on several duplicate numbers that the saxes were on a separate system from the brass.

 

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The survey has continued to grow and I now have enough of a Pan American Reed sample (402) to start the analysis amd maybe a beginning dating model. I hope to work on it this weekend. If you do have a Pan American or Pan American stencil woodwind, sax, clarinet etc, please continee to add them to this thread. The survey will continue even after posting a model.
Additionally, the Cavalier survey continues. Brass is at 273, while reeds are at 191. I am expecting this to take a lot more time as the universe of all Cavalier models, stencil or brand is relatively small cpmpared to the main Pan American lines. However, statistical inference requires a similar sample size to be used in orfer to have qualified results. So the goal remains at least 384 for each.

 

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We continue to collect instrument examples and serial numbers for the cavalier and Pan American survey studies.
The Pan American woodwinds are at 493 now. While we are still not ready to publish results, we have found a couple of relatively strong indicators.
It is looking like the Pan American woodwinds started in 1920. This is consitent with the 1919 incorporation and plant establishement dates. Additionally since the saxes started with the "P" serials, but the other woodwinds did not. Since the brass went to "P" in 1920, this timing seems to make sense as a start. Also, it looks like the woodwind line may have had a slow start up because based on models, particularly clarinets, as by 1925 we are likely at about 5000. at 1927 we get to about 10000. So far it's looking like 20000 may have been achieved by 1931.
However the afore may only apply to clarinets and other woodwinds as the "P" numbers seem to stop for the saxes at 33000. In the brass the "P" numbers stopped at 1929. Since there was a significant saxophone model number change in 1931 from 50 series to 60 seris in the alto, tenor and sopranos, identifying the highest 50 series or lowest 60 series would create that datapoint. The baritone, bass and C melody all maintained their 50 series models through and after 1931.
We are currently trying to resolve the change over from the 64M alto and 66M tenor to the 58M alto and 60M Tenor. The is alo the change from the "A" and "T" in the serial number to the "E" and "B." Any documentation, like catalog, brochure, pamphlet or advertisement that documents this including the date would be helpful. Current ly I can document the 64M and 66M though 1936 based on the catalogs that I have.

In the Cavlier line, it is looking loke the saxes and clarinets may also have been under different serial number systems. I don't have a large enough sample yet at 210, but with the saxes seemigly ending at 16000+ and the clarinets continuing to 68000+, a different sewrial number system would make sense. This is supported by the leading "O" for saxes ending at about 5000 and for clarinets at 15000+ so far.
The lauuch clarinet for Cavalier was the 98N. It was replaced after 1933 by the 92N. So far the highest 98N I have seen is 01436 and the lowest 92N is 03114. This could indicate a break point at around 3000. If so, the end of the 98N corresponds in the brass with the end of the 92B, the trumpet at launch. The highest I have of the 92B is 01836 and the lowest 94B is 3097. But I still have a ways to go to confirm as the count is 279.

 

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Bruce, Thanks!! Was this in the internet that you saw it? With all my searching I am amazed I didn't catch it, but thank you! It's now on the survay. btw - was it silver and did it have the Mercedes style guard? The Cavalier line did not use the "P" or "W" prefix like it's parent Pan American. The early Cavaliers all started with a leading "0" instead. However, like the Pan American, the leading digit was eventually dropped.

I want to thank Stocker for all his help in the Cavalier and Pan American woodwind and sax survey. His has been kind enough to be my subject matter expert and has been tireless in providing good knowledge and support.

Currently on the Cavalier study the brass is at 283 and the saxes ara at 83 and the clarinnet are at 143. Based on what I am finding in the Pan American line, I am going to be looking into the possibility that woodwinds had a different serial number system from the saxes.

So far the only brass datapoint that is holding up based on the information I have beyond the start of 1931, is serial number 3000 seems to be 1934. this is the relative dividing line between the 92B and 94B.
The Cavalier Clarinets seem to have a similar break with serial number 3000 also dividing the 98N and the 92N. The 94N also seems to have ended in 1933, making 3000 for the clarinets 1934.
The Cavalier saxes may have a data point for 1937, when the saxes under all Conn brands generally went from having a tone hole patent either Haynes or Hardy and put "Pat App'd For" in the serial number area. In Cavalier this seems coincident with adding the model number. This 7000 seems to be the data point for 1937. I have nothing to suggest 3000 being a 1934 datat point in the saxes.
P;ese note the use of relative disclaiming terminology. The Cavalier sample is not sufficient yet to make a declarative statement or draw a final conclusion.
I will give a Pan American update later.

 

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Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the added information, I added it to the registration for your instrument.

Now study update:
For the Cavalier reeds, I am at 285 in total count, and still need to get to at least 384 to be statistically valid. I could use some additional help from catalogs, brochures or advertising, if anyone has some to share. Currently I have been able to obtain the 1932/33 catalog, 1936, 1937 and 1938 brochures. I could use dated printed material showing instruments and models for 1934, 1935,1939 and the 1940s as based on what I am seeing in the survey these years could have changes to the line.
In terms of the Pan American Reeds, as the numbers grow, now 549 for saxes and 128 for other reeds, the indications are getting stronger that the saxes in this line were under a different initial serial number system from the reeds, later to be merged. I am still waiting for a serial number duplication to prove the contention. My next test will be late May.

Stocker and I have agreed on some Pan American sax data points, but I need a fourth before I can further define the numbers. At the 549 sample size we are well into critical mass and the sample is valid for findings. If someone has documentation for the launch of the 58M alto and 60M tenor and could share that would helpful.

 

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My computer went belly up lats week, but fortunately, I had just done aback-up. No loss of data for this study. However, I am in process of rebuilding my system, but I will continue to gather serial numbers and data.

 

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Thanks Willibo. Just to be clear,does the serial number have a "0" in front of it,so it is actually 0350? Also,does is have the 1915 Hardy patent information?

Thanks

 

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Willibo,
What you have is an early 96M Cavalier. The Pan American similar model is 66M. While I am still putting the dating model together, based on what I have this should fall between the 1931 launch date of the Cavalier line and 1933.
The three lines of Conn Ltd, Conn, pan American and Cavalier all shared design similarities in contemporary models. However, since Conn was the premium line, Pan American the moderately priced line, and Cavalier the lowest priced line, there are differences. A main difference is the Conn's had rolled drawn tone holes, while the Pan American and Cavalier lines had straight drawn tone holes. Additionally,the Pan American's had missing keys or MOP buttons from their Conn equivalents and Cavalier's had missing keys from their Pan American equivalents. Also,the Conn's stamped the Haynes tone hole patent on their instruments, while the Pan Americans after the mid 1920s went to stamping the Hardy tone hole patent. Cavalier started with the Hardy tone hole patent stamp. Later all went to patent applied for, with the Conn line first and Pan American and Cavalier following some years later..
Based on discussions I have read, I suspect in the pre-WWII models, overall quality was similar between the lines, the price differential coming from the handling of the tone holes and the differences in the keys.

 

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In terms of my study,I am at 268 examples of reeds. While I cannot officially put together a dating system for Cavalier, I am seeing some trends that seem to hold up even as the sample grows in size.
1) The Saxophones stop in the 16000's, with one exception at 23628 being reported. However no picture was provided with the instrument, so it is difficult to know if this number is correct. This may indicate the saxes did not come back after WWII.
2) The Clarinets have a high number of 68033 and are dominated by the metal clarinet, with a ratio approaching 20 to 1.
3) The Saxophones were private labeled or stenciled about 40% of the time with the concentration before serial number 8350.
4) The Clarinets and the Saxes may be under different systems as the lead "0" in the saxes ends at around 05100 and the clarinets end at around 015100.
5) The Clarinets were stenciled, but it is hard to determine the stencils from pictures or serial number configurations. I have only identified a few.
6) Around serial 7000,the saxes stopped using the Hardy patent stamp and went to the patent applied for stamp. For the moment,I am interpreting this as 1937 in parallel with the Pan American line, 1937 is the common believe form the subject matter experts I am working with as to when the Pan American line went to patent applied for.
Again, the above are indicators and should not be used as facts until the sample achieves a valid size and stabilizes.

 

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Thanks Bruce. You could be right,I'll see if I can check it out.

 

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Thanks again Bruce. have you looked at eh pan American Serial Number thread I started? if you haven't would love to hear your comments.

 

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Bruce,

I have one recorded a 575815, that I noted has bill of sale, but I didn't record date. This serial should be 1956 on this one though. Do you have another?

I also did some work on patents. the term at the time of the Haynes and Hardy patents was 17 years. It change in 1995.. In the Conn line they were still showing the Haynes patent until 1935 (M serials with both (Haynes and Pat App's for")(After that only "pat app'd for"). That would indicate, they were allowing 20 years total or 17 years from when they started using stamping it in 1917 or 1918. This could also be the conservative approach because of the potential for 20 years based on exceptions, or could have been a contract with Haynes.

The Hardy patent was internal to the company, but for consistency, it could be assumed that 20 years was used for it in the Cavalier line also. This would advance the beginning of the use of "pat app'd for" 1 or 2 years from what I had. There is sense to that. Will review against the sample.

 

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Thanks DetroitDave, I have added this one to the list. The number/date relationship is moving around a little as the sample grows and I am able to garner new information. Based on where things look today the estimate for this clarinet is mid to late 1930's, but after 1935. it is a model 92N. Interestingly enough the rtail price for the clarinet in 1936 was in the high $30.

Cavalier launched in 1931 with the 98N clarinet. By serial serial 03114, it was discontinued and replaced by the 92N. I have traced the 94 N to 1933. In 1935 Continental started getting Pan American and cavalier product on the Continental, Colonial and Clarion names. The earliest clarinet under that stencil is 013786.