Is this on alto or tenor? I'm guessing alto because you don't bite that much on tenor. Anyways, try putting a folded up piece of cigarette paper over your bottom teeth, so that the paper lessens the teeth's cutting effect on the lower lip. I used this on alto for quite a while, it really works well. But yeah, it does get better with lots of practice (in my opinion).

 

Thanks I will give it a try! It is an alto. It hurts so bad, I was so angry hehe. Thanks for the tip

 

Unfortunately, I don't think that we are addressing the real problem here, and that is that you shouldn't be biting AT ALL with a proper saxophone embouchure. The muscles around the mouth should be doing all the work/support, and the lower jaw should be slack enough so that the lower teeth aren't biting into the lower lip under any circumstances.
Get the Larry Teal book THE ART OF SAXOPHONE PLAYING for a complete explanation on how one forms and develops the proper embouchure.
It is of utmost importance that you cease this bad habit immediately, as it is detrimental to both your playing, and the health of your lips and the nerves in them.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think that we are addressing the real problem here, and that is that you shouldn't be biting AT ALL with a proper saxophone embouchure. The muscles around the mouth should be doing all the work/support, and the lower jaw should be slack enough so that the lower teeth aren't biting into the lower lip under any circumstances.
Get the Larry Teal book THE ART OF SAXOPHONE PLAYING for a complete explanation on how one forms and develops the proper embouchure.
It is of utmost importance that you cease this bad habit immediately, as it is detrimental to both your playing, and the health of your lips and the nerves in them.

Are you saying that you don't bite when playing alto :shock: You must be one hell of a player. But for the rest of us, the cigarette paper seems to work quite well. Everybody I know bites, including my sax teacher, so I think that while not biting may work for you, for many other people biting is part of the correct embouchure. And I'm not stopping this 'bad habit'. It works for me, I get a great tone and never get tired. Again, if it works for you to not bite, then so be it, but I think the generally accepted embouchure for alto includes biting.

 

Grey,
I HIGHLY recommend that you get the afore mentioned book as well. I don't know who your instructor is, but I would advise you to consider finding another if he is indeed advising you in this manner. With a degree in Music from UNT, and over 20 years experience as a studio/stage player, collector and instructor I can tell you that biting is NEVER acceptable in a proper embouchure with any size saxophone. The muscles must support and provide the necessary pressure, not biting action of the lower jaw. This is one of the most basic lessons a player must learn. Why you are being allowed to develop this nasty habit under an instructor's assistance is beyond me, unless he is primarily a clarinetist, where this approach is rather more commonly found, but improper none the less.
Certainly a mature, developed embouchure will have the surrounding muscles more than strong enough to prevent sinking the teeth into the lower lip save for the most extreme dental irregularities of the lower teeth, where a custom dental covering my be necessary. a sore, bleeding lip is never normal.
By the way, I own and play members of the entire saxophone family with equal facility. Your embouchure shouldn't and doesn't change RADICALLY from horn to horn, and certainly one does not bite while playing any of them if done properly.
While there are certain aspects of playing that come down to personal preference/technique; not biting, like breathing/blowing from the diaphragm is not an option but a cardinal rule.
I would not reiterate this point to such a high degree were it not fundamentally important.
I'm 38 Years Old!

 

Grey,
I HIGHLY recommend that you get the afore mentioned book as well. I don't know who your instructor is, but I would advise you to consider finding another ASAP. With a degree in Music from UNT, and over 20 years experience as a studio/stage player and instructor I can tell you that biting is NEVER acceptable in a proper embouchure with any size saxophone. This is one of the most basic lessons a player must learn. Why you are being allowed to develop this nasty habit under an instructor's assistance is beyond me, unless he is primarily a clarinetist, where this approach is rather more commonly found, but improper none the less.
By the way, I own and play members of the entire saxophone family with equal facility. Your embouchure shouldn't and doesn't change RADICALLY from horn to horn, and certainly one does not bite while playing any of them if done properly.

I'm 38 Years Old!

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/grey55_music.htm

Listen to Walker, it's on the alto and I'm biting the whole time. As I said, biting works for me. I'll probably have to stop it at some time, but I can't produce a good sound while note biting, and I really like my sound while biting. So I don't get what the problem is. It works really well for me.

EDIT: now that I think of it, I don't bite at all on tenor, only on alto. Weird. But they both sound about the same in terms of sound quality.

 

Grey,
I hate to beat a dead horse, but you are shooting yourself in the foot by biting. You admit that you are using an orthodox embouchure on Tenor, so we both know it can be done. If you take a look at Larry Teal's book, he gives the necessary exercises to build up all the muscles around the oral cavity. A few month of practicing this routine will eliminate your dependence on biting, and you will find your tone, control, dynamics etc. improving well beyond what you think you have now.
If you plan on playing into adulthood, let alone making a career or serious hobby out of this, you will need to get over this hurdle as soon as possible. Best of luck and cheers.

 

Thank you for recommending the book. I do not wish to bite, it doesn't seem natural and it hurts like hell. I do think it is just a weak embrochure because my lip bends over my teeth while playing and causes the biting. Although, when I am biting I do get a really good sound, I can only accomplish this for about an hour and then my lip hurts for days and I can't play. I have only had my alto for four days so I am new to the embrochure thing with the reed (I played flute previously). I'll get the book and just make myself patient enough to learn it the correct way. Thank you!

 

That's the right attitude, SexySaxy. You'll be glad you learned the right way. I learned clarinet from a violinist and taught myself to play sax (grew up in a small town). It took years of work to unlearn the bad habits I developed as a teenager. It's so much easier to change when you're young.

 

Grey,
I hate to beat a dead horse, but you are shooting yourself in the foot by biting. You admit that you are using an orthodox embouchure on Tenor, so we both know it can be done. If you take a look at Larry Teal's book, he gives the necessary exercises to build up all the muscles around the oral cavity. A few month of practicing this routine will eliminate your dependence on biting, and you will find your tone, control, dynamics etc. improving well beyond what you think you have now.
If you plan on playing into adulthood, let alone making a career or serious hobby out of this, you will need to get over this hurdle as soon as possible. Best of luck and cheers.

Alright, thanks. Not to sound like I'm trying to change sides in the argument, but I'm actually not sure if I bite anymore on alto. I don't use the folded up cigarette paper anymore, and I can play for hours without anything hurting, but there's always an indentation where my teeth have been after playing. Is this really biting?

If so, I'll definately check out that book. I'm sorry, I always assumed I bit because of this indentation.

 

I was about to ask the same question, i have conquered biting, with a mixture of relaxing my chin and use of the other muslces (around the mouth and above). However, although my playing results in no pain anymore and sound has improved, i still have a tooth indentation in my lower lip, not as severe as before though. So i dont really know still if im biting at all, because no matter how i play i still get a faint line on the inside lip.

If any saxophonist can play and not make a tooth indentation in their lower lip id like really love to see it.

Clari

 

While many people do bite on alto (my sax teacher in college for example). It's a bad idea. You'll never have the same enduranceas someone who doesn't, and the possibility for better tone is increased with not biting, because you allow the reed to vibrate properly. (The teacher that helped me fix my embouchure suggested that you should feel the reed "dancing" on your lip.) You shouldn't ever have to bite, even for altissimo.
You'll need to build up the muscles in your embouchure to compensate for the loss of pressure from your teeth. You may also have to experiment with the amount of mouthpiece you have in your mouth and how high your tongue is in your mouth, but the time spent will pay off in the long run.

 

Hi all,
Biting is a common problem among new sax students, and among some very seasoned veterans as well. Just about everyone started out with the misconception that this is the right way to control the reed. Without knowing the correct way, biting gets instant results in the short term, and can therefore lead one down the wrong path.
Never-the-less, the effort to eliminate this habit must be made by anyone who wants to get serious with their playing. The exercises I mentioned are the best way to expedite strengthening the appropriate muscles so that one will no longer feel it necessary to use the teeth and jaw to control the reed/tone/pitch/alt. etc. Eventually you will find the entire muscle structure around the mouth, and in particular the lower lip to be infinitely controllable and you will have far greater stamina. Ultimately, there shouldn't be any discomfort or other unpleasantries when playing the saxophone, even after long periods, if everything is being done properly.

If any saxophonist can play and not make a tooth indentation in their lower lip id like really love to see it.

When the lower lip muscles are strong enough to do their job in a proper embouchure, they will feel somewhat like they do when you make an exaggerated pouting gesture with the lower lip extended. This in effect lifts the lip off of the lower teeth through much of your playing time, and the cushion of the lower lip only brushes lightly against the teeth. I am not suggesting that one actually sticks the lower lip out to this degree, however the muscle group used for both lip forms is the same, and thus the feeling.
If one has sharp canines or other lower tooth anomalies it might leave a definite tooth pattern even when the proper embouchure is consistently used. However, I have rather sharp canine teeth myself, and I don't have any signs of this in my years of playing. When I first started on the Sax as a youngster, I did indeed have the usual beginner's biting problem, with the resultant sore lip and bleeding problems, so I know full well what that is like. Additionally, I have found that this problem seems most acute in players with weaker or slightly recessed jaws. In this case, a realignment of the jaw (outward) while playing will likely need to be added to the list of things to work towards as well.
This can be a hard habit to break, and will require some conscientious effort to get back on track, but will open your tone, volume, consistency throughout the range etc.I have read about many tales of budding horn players asking their hero horn players how to improve their tone: and breath control from the diaphragm and freeing up the jaw and embouchure/oral cavity are the two most common problems addressed in these accounts. In short, get Mr. Teal's book, read it cover to cover, and work on implementing the information into your playing. I promise you will be amazed at the fantastic results. Cheers.

 

Thanks for the support Yeah I'm 24 and played flute like 7 years ago. But I've always loved sax and have taken the initiative. I did a lot better today of not biting. You do get so much more tired due to an untrained embrochure but it'll be worth at the end, and my lip doesn't hurt today yay hehe Thanks everyone!

 

Teal's exercises will really get your embouchure together. You'll probably feel like it's always developing, because it is! Even after years, I still have things to learn.

I have a slight overbite and I play with this overbite. Although Teal recommends pushing the lower jaw forward, I find this incredibly uncomfortable to do, even without a horn in my mouth. Therefore I take a bit more mouthpiece so that the lower jaw and lip align with the reed properly. This I think is a better way of dealing with an overbite, and I notice a lot of fine players use this method rather than jutting out their jaws.

College professors who bite while playing alto... this simply amazes me.

 

Hi Razzy,
You will find that projecting the lower jaw is more prevalent among Tenor/Baritone/Bass players than Alto and above, and among Jazz/Blues players than among Classical/Concert players.
With a subtle overbite, I personally find it beneficial to extend my jaw to align the upper and lower teeth ( after years of training myself to do so) but this, unlike the biting, is a matter of personal experience/preference/results to a degree. Obviously those with a "lantern jaw" or underbite will not need to compensate by extending their jaw, to obtain maximum results.

 

Tenor, alto, it doesn't matter. Try playing 4-hour gigs three or four nights in a row, while biting into your lower lip. You'll never make it. Plus you can actually get a better sound when you learn to use your facial muscles to control the embouchure. I know this, because years ago, when I started playing, no one told me not to bite into my lower lip. I always had to resort to the cigarette paper thing. It took me several years to break the biting habit and now I can play every day without any soreness in my lower lip.

 

JL, how true. No one knows more about how important it is not to bite, than someone who did and had to break the habit after years of playing. It is the bane of young saxophonist world wide.

 

College professors who bite while playing alto... this simply amazes me.

Yeah, Dr. Cohen really is an amazing character. :razz:

PC:[Some talking I've just done about jaw vibrato] goes in concordance with Joe's teaching of embouchure. This so much changed my whole understanding of how to play saxophone, that it's a core part of my teaching today, and it comes directly from my work with Joe. He believed that all the control of the sound and the control of the reed comes from the chewing muscles of the jaw. The jaw controls the reed; the lip is only a cushion or buffer over the teeth to allow the reed to vibrate in a more musical way. This was one of the two major embouchure concepts that were prevalent in the 1930s, `40s and `50s. The other one, the older style, used the lip tissue as being that which applied the pressure against the reed, and not the jaw. You would have a lot of lip; it would almost be like a subtone kind of embouchure. You would squeeze against what would be a closed lay mouthpiece with a thin reed, and you would get a very warm, fuzzy, beautiful kind of sound kind of like Ben Webster, a sound that would have a wonderful warmth to it. The problem with that embouchure was that if you were going into the upper register of the horn, you just couldn't push the reed up with the lip tissue enough to get the pitch up there. It did not allow for any efficient altissimo register and it just didn't have quite the clarity and the intensity that a lot of modern playing was asking for. So there were a lot of drawbacks to that older style of embouchure. Merle Johnston, who was also a well-known teacher in New York was an advocate of that - Larry Teal studied with Merle Johnston and that's where Larry Teal gets a lot of his embouchure thoughts about the round wheel and about how the lip muscles are supporting. Joe is from the other school, where you have a rather flat and thin cushion and all the work is done with the jaw and teeth. You have a whole other kind of playing which was then what was being demanded in studio and all other kinds of saxophone playing. And that's the kind that most people use today.

DM: But at the time the other embouchure was more prevalent.

PC: In the '30s and '40s that's the way people were playing. But I don't believe Marcel Mule was playing that way. And I don't think Sigurd Rascher was playing that way. You can't, if you're going to play as high as he did, and you can't if you're going to articulate as well as Mule did. ...

http://www.joeallard.org/interviews/cohen.html

Kenneth Radnofsky is too.

Joe taught us how to chew. He'd say, "That's how you play - if you can chew food you can play the saxophone." So he taught us to do that; how to keep our lip over the teeth and still use the chewing muscles. He'd say to us, "Every note requires a minimal amount of jaw pressure," but we had to figure out how much. You didn't want to use more than was necessary. Joe didn't want it to hurt when you played.

http://www.joeallard.org/interviews/radnofsky.html

But the heart of my post is that Joe Allard was positively stunning, and that was his definitive embouchure. His may not be that popular anymore - probably because it hurts - but his embouchure is quite valid and definitely not just the result of a weak embouchure.

For my own part, I alternate between the "Teal" embouchure and the "Allard" variety depending upon the style of music that I'm playing. Allard's method I use for a vast majority of my legit music, and rarely in jazz, because I feel it makes my sound particularly clear. Teal's method I use primarily when playing jazz, because I feel it adds a very slight "fuzzy" quality to my sound. (I used to think of it as "almost subtone," actually, but it's less "almost subtone" than Ben Webster, so I guess I shall defer to Dr. Cohen's definition of that term.) Provided I have enough water and I'm allowed to stop for some brief, relatively pad-friendly meals, I can (and have, many times) play intensely all day long with the Teal embouchure, with very little fatigue, without any sort of device over my teeth. On the other hand, without a lip-saver (wax paper) I can only play with an Allard embouchure for a couple of hours, and by that point my lip is screaming at me (though not bleeding, and with no ulcers or anything). As a result, I play legit music with wax paper, and can easily handle playing all day with an Allard embouchure as well.

I was taught to use both embouchures when I was 14, by the professor of saxophone at UW-Milwaukee (also my private instructor). He uses lip-savers as well, though as I recall not very many of his other students do. I imagine that his non-lip-saver serious students may in fact have some nerve damage. But I don't, after 8 years, because I take measures to protect it, and it's an informed decision based upon the sound I want. Nonetheless, I sometimes wonder if my use of lip-savers has made my lip overly sensitive - well, eliminated the possibility of developing a normal and okay level of endurance enjoyed by most of the saxophone community.

SexySaxy, don't worry. Once your embouchure strengthens up enough for you to play for long periods of time, that "biting" lip pain will be replaced by the wonderful chapped lip pain.

 

Does Dr. Cohen bite into his lip to the point of a ridge, cuts or bleeding? If he does, I don't envy him one bit, and I've heard equally fine players who don't have this problem. That's really what I was talking about, the biting to the point of pain... There's been a lot of discussion to suggest that the "Allard method" is not much more than a different concept or way of thinking about the embouchure, and that the supposed strikingly different approaches are pretty similar. I agree with this, having witnessed some Allard proponents playing, taking lessons with them, etc. and it's safe to say that most players these days have Allard and Teal elements in their embouchures.

The lower teeth do make contact with the lower lip, and this contact can be responsible for a little mark in your lip, but as long as it's not causing pain, you're fine.

Most players get too hung up on embouchure and might forget that it has to be supported by the air primarily. To state that "all the control of the sound and the control of the reed comes from the chewing muscles of the jaw" totally discounts the importance of the air in controlling the sound. For me, focusing on using the corners of the mouth and relaxing the jaw pretty much does it: lets the air do the work. Teal's exercises as well as plenty of flute playing have gotten things to a point where they "float on the air". I had to unlearn terrible biting habits because it was causing a lot of pain... no biting, no pain. More endurance. Sounds pretty simple to me....

 

SexySaxy, don't worry. Once your embouchure strengthens up enough for you to play for long periods of time, that "biting" lip pain will be replaced by the wonderful chapped lip pain.

haha I experienced that the second day! SoftLips chapstick works wonders! Like I said, I haven't had it a week but I am glad that I consulte everyone before getting into a rut with bad habits.

Thanks everyone!

 

Well, I just had a rather lengthy reply typed up, and hit "submit reply" only to find out IE had for some reason logged me out (dumping everything I'd typed).

So, here is reply v2.0.

I've read other threads about this. The main force saying they're the same seems to be Steve J, but he seems to ignore the placement of the lip (which is crucial, I'd say, to the development of an embouchure).

While my corners are firm in the Teal/Allard way (I agree that this is two descriptions of the same concept regarding the corners) I can have my lip rolled so far in that stubble is contacting the reed, or out so far that I resemble Bubba from Forrest Gump. These are two very, very different embouchures. So it seems to me that firm corners alone isn't enough to make one definitive embouchure.

The lip itself is pretty much limp. I believe the only muscles inside are the incisors, which are merely plumbed through. They connect the two corners, and when contracted create a horizontal pucker. Outside of that, our lips are at the mercy of the muscles described in Mr. Teal's wheel.

We're able to squeeze our lips together vertically, without the use of our jaws. This sort of vertical pucker is the basis for Teal's embouchure. The lower lip is trapped in between the muscles doing the squeezing, and so vertical pressure is applied to the mouthpiece/reed. The jaw doesn't really come into play - the teeth don't do much. What's odd about this is the soft nature of the entirety of the embouchure (except the upper teeth, which don't really count). The muscles of the player's chin are sympathetic to the vibrations of the reed, so the embouchure creates the fuzzy, halfway-kind of-slightly-almost-semi-quasi-subtone sound Dr. Cohen described.

In Allard's embouchure, the lip is partly rolled in. In this position, there's simply no way for any non-jaw muscle to apply pressure to the reed. It's physiologically impossible. Instead, slight pressure is applied via the muscles of the jaw, while the facial muscles work toward pulling the corners back and the lower lip nice and tight. This embouchure is much less sympathetic to the vibrations of the reed, as the portion of the lip which makes contact is generally a bit stiffer, and of course tooth and bone are stiffer than muscle and fatty tissue. The resultant tone is ever-so-slightly clearer and perhaps a touch brighter.

I just think that some veteran players on this board are a bit too ready to say that if a younger player's embouchure hurts, something must be wrong. If you play 18 holes the first time you go golfing, chances are your hands are going to hurt afterward - but that doesn't mean anything wrong with your grip (or your gear). If you walk it your feet are probably going to hurt too - but that doesn't mean something's wrong with your walking technique. You're just not used to doing it. I think there are elements of our playing that some take for granted. Some of the things we don't give any thought to are some of the most daunting aspects of what we do, and I think that tiny lip callous is definitely one of those things.

I think there's a very large difference between "biting" as in Allard's embouchure and really biting, like Ms. Saxy was probably doing. Allard's is tempered by the facial muscles, and a lot less vertical pressure is needed as one learns voicing techniques and all that. This is why, I'm sure, Dr. Cohen's lip is perfectly fine (albeit a bit chapped, perhaps).

 

I just think that some veteran players on this board are a bit too ready to say that if a younger player's embouchure hurts, something must be wrong. If you play 18 holes the first time you go golfing, chances are your hands are going to hurt afterward - but that doesn't mean anything wrong with your grip (or your gear). If you walk it your feet are probably going to hurt too - but that doesn't mean something's wrong with your walking technique. You're just not used to doing it. I think there are elements of our playing that some take for granted. Some of the things we don't give any thought to are some of the most daunting aspects of what we do, and I think that tiny lip callous is definitely one of those things.

Rick makes an excellent point here. I know for sure that if I lay off the horn for a week or more (which I rarely do), then try to play for 3 or 4 hours, I'll be hurting, and my lip will get a bit sore also. The fact is, my teeth are in contact with the lower lip and there is some pressure there, but I don't bite hard into the lip. It's a matter of degree. And as has been pointed out, there is more than one type of embouchure. To some extent, I think you have to experiment and find out what works best for you.

 

Biting.

It seems to me a matter of degree.
I certainly doubt that there are many clarinet players who play the top octave without some "support" beneath the lower lip from the teeth.

And probably most sax players get a little support too. I doubt that they would get quite the same control if they drew their lower jaw right back so that the teeth offered NO support.

Increase this support a little, or have extra sharp teeth, or irregular teeth, and suddenly the bite police kick in!

Before biting is so severely castigated, it should be quite clearly defined, as distinct from a little lower lip support. I doubt this is possible, and would vary a lot from person to person.

I think it should also be pointed out that many players are not able to spend hours of practice per day keeping their lip support muscles to Olympic condition. Ordinary hobby players, and players with a lot more to life than just sax playing, may well need more of the support prop from the teeth.

Another possibility is that a well-experienced player has indeed developed a relatively 'calloused' lip, and also a firmer texture to the underlying lip tissue itself (that children at least, most certainly would not have) . Such players may well be getting quite a lot of support from their teeth without even knowing it. In my experience few people seem to be critically aware of exactly what such parts of their body are actually doing.

The folded few cigarette papers is a relieving aid. Your dentist can also make an acrylic cover that slips over your four front lower teeth. I made my own from a block of material. I needed it because I was doubling clarinet in a show with some extended flash parts all over the place in the top octave. I most certainly did not have the years to put in in order to develop leather lips before playing this. A degree of biting was absolutely vital for THIS player to impress the audience for THIS show.

Ideals are fine, but we must also keep in touch with reality.

Perhaps the reed is just too hard.

 

This is really an interesting discussion, and one I'm glad we are having because when this has come up before on the forum it degenerated into a mealy-mouthed agreement that "oh, they (Allard vs. Teal) are really just two different ways of describing the same thing".

I've never really understood how Allard's embouchure approach can work. Though I respect that there are outstanding players out there (Paul Winter, Dave Liebman, Paul Cohen, Radnofsky, I assume Harvey Pittel, many more Allard students or grand-students) who use and advocate it, I disagree with almost every aspect of that approach as I've seen it described in writing. And I think at least in the classical world there are far more saxophonists (students of Teal, Sinta, Mule, Hemke, Rousseau, Londeix, Rascher, and on and on) who advocate the Teal approach or a variant thereof than advocate the Allard approach.

RickB says the Teal "embouchure creates the fuzzy, halfway-kind of-slightly-almost-semi-quasi-subtone sound Dr. Cohen described". I think it's fair to assume that Donald Sinta uses the Teal embouchure, and this is a ludicrous characterization of his tone.

Paul Cohen says "ut I don't believe Marcel Mule was playing that way. And I don't think Sigurd Rascher was playing that way. You can't, if you're going to play as high as he did, and you can't if you're going to articulate as well as Mule did." Again, I disagree. If you read the description of the embouchure formation that Hemke gives in his Selmer brochure (which he says is based on French, i.e. Mule's, principles), it is far closer to Teal's description than to the approach described by Allard's students. If you read Michael Hester's manual, his description (from Mule via Rousseau) is also very similar to Teal's.

The assertion that you "can't play that high" is also plainly wrong. Can Sinta play that high? And I think most would agree that it is manipulation of the air support, throat, and oral cavity that are major factors in altissimo, while embouchure adjustments are secondary, and that additional pressure applied by the teeth or jaw is counterproductive. In fact, though I think it is counterintuitive to beginners, that statement is true for tone production in general - the air support, throat and oral cavity are more important than the embouchure narrowly defined (i.e., the formation of the mouth around the mouthpiece), which is not to suggest that the embouchure is not important also.

So I am an advocate of the Teal approach. The drawings in his book that display the proper approach of the muscles providing the necessary support for the reed versus the teeth digging into the lower lip to provide the support should be taken to heart by anyone who hopes to master the saxophone. Clearly the Allard approach can work (again, I don't understand how), but any approach that begins with supposition that "all the work is done with the jaw and teeth" is to me dangerous to the lower lips of aspiring saxophonists everywhere.