I think this is a matter of personal preference.Personally,I like Mulligan's sound but that is not the sound I'm looking for on bari.I like the sound of Cuber,Smulyan and Brignola on the "3 Baritones" CD,especially Cuber;that clear,solid,thunderous and strong bari sound.

 

To my ear, Mulligan's sound was the bari equivalent of Stan Getz's on tenor, and maybe Paul Desmond's on alto: sweet and pretty, but small; well-suited to combo work --- but none of these players really had a sound big and robust enough to 'hang' with big bands, IMHO (especially Getz, who on all the large-group live recordings of him I've heard, gets obliterated by the band). I'm sure that in studio recordings of these players their volumes were brought up to prominence by the engineers/producers, but in live settings, the Cuber/Brignola/Bruce Johnstone type of sound is (I believe) much more effective.

 

Subtone

Subtone, I think your term "tunderous" is the one I was referring to- this is the one I don't particularly like but I was wondering how they achieve it? Is it through mouthpiece,reed and blowing in a thunderous manner?

 

but none of these players really had a sound big and robust enough to 'hang' with big bands, IMHO (especially Getz, who on all the large-group live recordings of him I've heard, gets obliterated by the band). I'm sure that in studio recordings of these players their volumes were brought up to prominence by the engineers/producers, but in live settings, the Cuber/Brignola/Bruce Johnstone type of sound is (I believe) much more effective.

Kind of a moot point, but I've read comments by several of Getz's contemporaries that said they were surprised by how big his sound really was in person. Remember, Getz came up in the big bands. If he couldn't hack it, he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did.

 

I too prefer the power bari sound, but I stop a little short of the chain saw tone. I like to be able to turn the edge on and off. On that 3 Bari recording, I think Nick actually toned down his normal sound to blend better. Some of his solos even sound different than his section playing.

Note on that recording how Gary normally take the low lines and Ronnie the high leads. The tribute was more to Mulligan's music, and I guess his choice of instrument, than it was to his tone. The 3 bari arrangements are a novelty that may have helped to sell a few.

 

I think Nick actually toned down his normal sound to blend better. Some of his solos even sound different than his section playing.

He even changed mouthpieces. In the Youtube videos you find of him playing in a section he's not playing the Strathon. It still use the Strathon in the big bands I play bari in, but with the baffle set as dark as it will go. Certainly not a Mulligan sound, as it's still fairly bright, but it's not Brignola's usually rather pointed small ensemble sound either.

 

Mojo

Mojo, Thanks but how do they achieve that edge and how do you turn it on and off? I guess I am really asking what the heck the Bari is supposed to sound like. Thanks

 

DD3,edge is achieved using higher baffle mouthpieces.Gary Smulyan uses a Link with an added baffle,Cuber uses a F.Louis mouthpiece with (high?) baffle and Brignola used mouthpieces with high-baffle (Lawton BB etc.).Higher baffle adds brightness and edge to the tone but also thins the tone to some degree (chain saw-tone Mojo is referring to).Toneing down is something you learn to do with high-baffle mpcs,to take off the edge and brightness.

 

Enormous air support is the key ingredient - played lead in a big band with Bruce (Lawton 8* B) a couple of weeks ago and trombonist Randy Purcell said "There's a tornado in there!" Support is the secret to ppp or fff on any sax - the mpc is simply the nozzle through which the support passes. Paul Brodie always compared it to "singing" through the sax - the secret is diaphragmatic support. Blow from your gut, and the tone will be there, shaped by the dimensions and contours of both your physiology and the mpc and the speed with which the air passes.

 

MP choice is a big factor, but some baris are naturally edgy in the from G2 on up. Yamaha is one of the clearer sounding, which is what I play. I find it better to start with a clear tone and add edge as you desire with MP and how you play it.

I use high baffle pieces, mostly Quantums. At higher volumes, they become edgy, but you can do embouchure manipulations to vary it some. I have not really analyzed what I specifiacally do, but I think pinching off the flow some and raising my tongue adds edge (possibly higher velocity). A little growl or throat constriction may also be going on.

As for what a Bari should sound like: its like any other sax... it varies. Just listen to other players and recordings. Play in the style that is appropriate for the music you are playing.

If you like Mulligan, check out some Serge Chaloff too. If you like Brignola, check out Dennis DiBlasio, Glenn Wilson (modern guys... not dead yet) and Pepper Adams. See:

http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/8586/

 

To reply to Mike Ruhl's comment about Stan Getz: I heard Getz live some years ago at Blues Alley in Washington, DC, and I was sitting quite near the stage. Getz was playing into a microphone, even in that fairly small room, and believe me, he was NOT very loud. Listen to his recordings with, say the Montreux festival big bands, especially when he solos just before or after Dexter Gordon, for instance....Remember that during the days he played in big bands, just about all the sax players were using fairly close (by today's standards) hard-rubber mouthpieces with big chambers and little or no baffle, so the 'typical' sax sound of that era was more like what Getz had rather than the louder, edgier sounds of most modern players. In that context he would have been able to hold his own, I'm sure.

 

Ronnie Cuber...

Have a listen to Cornell Dupre's "Bop and Blues", Ronnie Cuber's riff on Manteca is EPIC...

Room for every sound, I suppose.
I've got recordings from both schools.

I relish the amount of sound Desmond and Mulligan got from few notes.
By the same token, Habana sax has the most growling Bari player - and I would pay to hear them again.

Something about playing more quietly that makes an audience attend...

 

Their (Baris) sound to me is just not pleasing to listen to- seems to be loud,raucous,harsh, overblown.

I know what you mean, I always felt that way about Altos. When I was introduced to the rest of the family of Saxes 2 years after I started playing, I fell in love with the Bari sound. It was not as tinny or harsh as the Alto, but to each his own. For me the Bruce Johnstone sound has always been my favorite.

 

I'm primarily a Tenor player myself, but when I think of the acme of Baritone sound and style, I think of Harry Carney. He was to the Baritone, what Adrianne Rollini was to the Bass Sax-IMHO. Mike

 

Since I'm in England, I'll be diplomatic and praise a cross between the two styles: our own Alan Barnes. To me he has a nice full sound but without the harsher edge of say Brignola.

 

But... have you heard Nick carress a ballad?

 

To reply to Mike Ruhl's comment about Stan Getz: I heard Getz live some years ago at Blues Alley in Washington, DC, and I was sitting quite near the stage. Getz was playing into a microphone, even in that fairly small room, and believe me, he was NOT very loud. Listen to his recordings with, say the Montreux festival big bands, especially when he solos just before or after Dexter Gordon, for instance....Remember that during the days he played in big bands, just about all the sax players were using fairly close (by today'r standards) hard-rubber mouthpieces with big chambers and little or no baffle, so the 'typical' sax sound of that era was more like what Getz had rather than the louder, edgier sounds of most modern players. In that context he would have been able to hold his own, I'm sure.

Fair enough. I never had the pleasure hearing Getz live.

 

I have and he was plenty loud.

 

There are many approaches to baritone, as there are to tenor. I like most of the bari players I've heard, though Hamiett Bluiett leaves me cold. I don't usually like John Surman, but he did a thing with John McLaughlin that I kinda liked. I idolized Mulligan when I was younger, along with Getz and Desmond. I still love those guys, but I expanded to Sonny, Phil Woods, and Pepper Adams. Later on, I got into Brecker, Bergonzi, Kenny Garrett......you get the picture. I didn't stop liking what I used to like when I expanded my listening. I don't choose to sound like anyone but myself, but having influences from Benny Carter to Brecker to Brignola has shaped my approach. Getz was rockin' to the end IMHO. He could have played bossas his whole life but he hired guys like Jim McNeely who challenged him harmonically. Mulligan was less adventurous, but his final recording "Midas Touch" is a really nice live CD. Gerry plays really well in many tempi, and Ted Rosenthal sounds great..

 

Really like Ronnie Cuber's Bari sax lead on"Way Back Home" Gadd Gang (with drum solo). I especially like his tone. Live performance on you tube.

 

A lot of this edge is achieved through mouthpiece/reed selection combined with air speed.
All three use baffled pieces in varying degrees.
While Mulligan and Serge Challof both have enviable tones in my opinion Pepper Adams had the tone I'd like to achieve.
Especially his earlier recordings with the Berg piece.

 

I like a raw, edgier bari sound, but maybe because I like funk. I think Doc Kupka's sound is fairly edgy, and is what I like to try and do. Don't have a bari right now, so it's a moot point. I did like the sound I got using a borrowed YBS-52 and my Yani metal mouthpiece when I had to prepare for a show that got rained out. Never heard an upper register I liked as much as the SX90 baris I had, but the keywork was just too challenging for my short, stubby fingers.

 

My Weltklang bari has a nice/clear upper range using a SR Tech metal and Rico Royal 2 1/2s.
The bottom isn't as big as a Vintage Conn.

 

I have a vintage conn, chu berry era. Beautiful bottom end, but the upper registers are clear. Takes a lot of air to get the upper registers clear with a big chamber link STM, but the effort is worth while.

I'm not a fan of too much buzz or brightness in Bari tone. For years all I wanted was to sound like was mulligan ( to be fair I'd still be happy to sound like that). But over time I guess my taste has modernized somewhat. I like players like Cuba and Dennis diblasio as well.

Mulligans sound worked for a variety of formats. If you get a chance check out the Michelle legrand album he plays on with Jon fadis and Phil woods.

 

In May of 1960, I was fortunate to hear Mulligan's big band at the Village Vangard in the Village in New York. He was simply wonderful, a sound never to be forgotten. I own the reel-to-reel and CD recordings of that great band. He projected so well over the band. Yet, I do not try to sound like that because my MKVI and old Brilhart 6* Levelaire just can't sound like that and I could not approach his performance level.

 

Yes, I love to hear people say they don't want to sound like Mulligan, as if they could if they just wanted to.

What a sound, and he could put an edge on it too, when needed.

 

Yes, I love to hear people say they don't want to sound like Mulligan, as if they could if they just wanted to.

What a sound, and he could put an edge on it too, when needed.

Really. And the same goes for the other well-known players too. 'Armchair sax reviewers'. They speak with an authority they do not possess. But what I really feel about the subject is, how dare you (anybody) critically analyze some of the most respected sax players of all time? Like 'blowhead' says, 'as-if'.
Getz, Mulligan and Desmond were the top tier of sax players on their respective horns in the 'cool' jazz era. You can't just yank one of them into our time and analyze his playing by today's standards - there's no point.
So, to the OP, listen to as many recorded bari players as you can. Sooner or later, you'll start digging a certain way of playing, and then you'll have something to shoot for.

 

Adison gets a nice sound with her Conn, and looks like a Link.