Shoot, it wont let me upload any more photos of the horn.....

 

These all show up for me. I don't know if you can see them or not......?
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=234053569965050&set=a.234053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=234053626631711&set=a.234053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=234053689965038&set=a.234053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=234053746631699&set=a.234053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=234053806631693&set=a.234053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=234053859965021&set=a.234053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=234053933298347&set=a.234053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=234053963298344&set=a.234053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater

 

Sure you could. It would depend on a lot of variables, though; for instance, did Buescher (or other makers) order / make a whole bunch of cases and then work down the stock over a long period of time, or did they make/order the cases more frequently, as-needed? If the maker contracts out the work, did they use the same manufacturer all the time? Did the manufacturer consistently use the same provider of case hardware? Etc.

 

I've also given up trying to date my 30A, but It's a great back-up to my Mk 6. The action is not quite as slick but the tone takes a back seat to none. I've also seen several variations within the 30A model line:some with brass key cups, some with nickel key cups, some with high copper content in the bell. I have two of these sleepers which were used by two sons through High school band. One is silver in the 52,000 serial number range and the other is a 45,000 series. These are good horns.

 

Hornlip, those are some very, very good points. I recall my grandfather stating that back in those days the manufacturers usually made everything in-house (Which to me is what made the quality/craftsmanship so superb), so I'm guessing that would include cases. I will guess that they had working relationships with hardware makers, lumber supply, leather and stitch supply, etc....

Sax736, that is awesome to hear! I agree with you about the tone quality. My serial is 697XX so again, I have no idea where that places it time-wise.

To my untrained eye, the Art-Deco style of the case and the stenciling scream pre-1950's.....

 

I say 1938-52.

 

Late 50's - early 60's. Definitely Pre buyout.

 

I thought the Elkhart was discontinued around 1955. I don't remember that tweed case being around in the late 50s.

 

Bruce,
I'm thinking that your guess of 1938-52 is probably very good. I've been trying to study a lot of construction and hardware from the 1920's-1970's and I'm pretty sure that there's no way they were using this style of rear hinge past the 40's. I'm also pretty sure that they did not use the primitive hardware plate rivets past the 40's/early 50's either. The only thing that I'm pretty certain about is that many, if not all, instrument cases from the 1920's seemed to use purple velvet.

I'm not skilled enough to speak on the stenciling, but this does not look like any stenciling that I've seen from the 50's/60's.

p.s.
Now that you mention it, the main body material appears to be either a varnished leather or tweed/burlap material with leather accents stitched at each end

 

It has distinctive features of a late 50-early 60 horn. If you guys wanna date a horn based on the case... [rolleyes]

post flanges, key construction, and neck brace are late 50's early 60's.

 

There were no Buescher Elkharts made after 1954 (According to one of Denver's longest Buescher playing collectors/shops http://www.flesherhinton.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=4)
Also, I'm not sure if the photo quality is good enough for you to spot them, but if you look closely there are 8 thin Victorian-type "L" shaped trim cap brackets on the case corners, at the joints, that secure the dark leather accents. This was a more costly and time consuming feature that was standard from roughly late 1920's through the mid 1940's, but after WWII it became less and less common and this construction technique had completely vanished in the mid-late 1940's. (Hardware and manufacturing techniques changed a lot in the 1950's). The neck brace doesn't look like any 1960's brace that I've ever seen, though.

 

stand by my previous comments.

 

Saintsday,
That Signet doesn't look too bad for that price....... And it is almost certainly a 60's make.
Not trying to be a jerk, but you have to slow down and work on your eye for detail. That Signet neck is nothing like my 30A neck; It has a completely flat squared under brace mouthpipe guard and mine is very clearly oval, nearly round.
The octave riser guides/key saddles on the Signet neck are short and wide. The octave riser guides and saddles on mine are very tall and narrow.
The round loop at the bottom of the octave key on mine is perfectly round.
The loop on that horn is a nearly perfect 4-sided square loop.
Also note that my thumb levers are quite different from that horn.

Perhaps most importantly, I'm becoming fairly competent at cataloging cases and the hardware which they were built with. Look very closely at the Selmer case. It is a perfect example of 60's design and hardware. Look closely at the downgraded/cheap corner hardware and clasp locks on it, now look at the color of the stitching, the black material and the cheap looking generic handle. It's very modern.

Now look very closely at the 30A case; It screams "Art Deco!" with completely different accents, stitching, build materials and hardware.

To the best of my knowledge, there were no Buescher Elkhart 30A's made after 1954-5.
Our very own Pete Hales states that they were made in the 1930's and I completely agree with him that it was the same tooling as the True Tones: http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/Stencils.html

I agree with Bruce Bailey's post above... 1938-52 -ish...... 1940's seems right when all is considered.

This 1951 'Crat neck looks almost exactly the same as mine and the "Buescher True Tone" badge on the case is almost an exact match to the badge on my case: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130561836839&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123

If you're a younger guy, don't sweat it; Over time you'll develop an eye for detail as you grow older.
If you're an old fart like some of us, you need some glasses because the 2 necks are nothing alike :bluewink:

 

My eyes are fine. I thought you meant that general style neck brace which didn't appear on any Buescher branded instrument until around 1960 about the time I got my first saxophone. That isn't based on an opinion but on having owned a couple hundred Buescher saxophones.

 

Round post flanges started in late 50's when they introduced the 141-156 aristocrats (back bell tone holes a la buescher 400) they moved them form those aristocrats to the stencils/cheaper line after the '60's. Your pre 55 elkhart would have oval post flanges. I don't know who gave you the 54-55 deadline for the Elkharts but he's wrong. They were produced at least for 10 more years after that date you're mentioning. They replaced the 20A-30A with the 21A-31A wich had less elaborate engraving and nickel keys.
The brace on the neck of yor horn is from the 60's. It would have come on a cheaper aristocrat around '61 or '62.

You're being called wrong by 2 persons (saintsday and me) with not only solid experience on Buescher and stencils, but we have had a LOT of different horns over the years. Don't care if you're 70, 80 years old. I think that the only way in wich you could have seen more different bueschers than Saints and me is if you worked at the factory AND packed them different horns into their cases.

 

Plus, elkharts wasn't "made", they were "built" with leftovers from the main line.

 

"I don't know who gave you the 54-55 deadline for the Elkharts but he's wrong. They were produced at least for 10 more years after that date you're mentioning."

Do you have any scanned catalogs/ad's showing the 30A or did you own a brand new 30A that you walked in and purchased in the 1960's in America or what? How do you know this? Post some solid photo or article evidence of some sort please.
I don't want to spin this thread way off topic because all I'm saying is that it's fairly easy to compare case builds and the era they were built in. One has to know that the case is original to the horn, though. It's totally possible, but not likely, that myself, Pete Hales and Bruce Bailey are mistaken about the date range.

I know that my case is original to the 30A. A pastor from my local church had been the original owner and passed it down to his son before he was killed in a car wreck a few years later. (At that time I was playing a Conn 16M but really wanted to try a Buescher. My memory is fuzzy, but this was roughly 1969 when I purchased it in quite used condition)

Jicaino, I would be grateful if you have any close-up photos you could post of cases (out of the hundreds that you've had in your hands) that you know are original to the horn from the 1950's and 1960's. I borrowed this idea of trying to guestimate a horn based on original case hardware/construction from a few professional luthiers that I have spoken with over the years. Those guys are incredibly good at getting in the ball park based on the case construction and hardware, and it's something that they have to resort to once in a while. I can absolutely promise you that my case is not from the 1960's. It may be from the 1950's. I honestly don't know if it's from the 1940's.

Basically, just take a long hard look at your case hardware/locks/clasps/stitching if you have one of each from the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's. Cool?

You will never, ever, ever, ever find a case that has a badge like this from the 1960's: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...053466631727.52699.100000812259222&type=1&theater&pid=595555&id=100000812259222

This 1951 badge is nearly identical:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130561836839&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123

(I notice that you are in S. America and I don't know if you're from the USA or not, but this style of art/logo would have been considered EXTREMELY "Square" or "Uncool" to a young music student in the 1960's because "modern" was the in thing. Also, The type face/font of the letters is exactly the same as what Buescher used in the 1940's-early 50's and is nothing like the 60's font on all Buescher cases)

 

I don't have much to add here, but several 30A and 20A stencils that I've owned or had my hands on could be dated to the mid 1950's. Some of the instrument companies like F.E. Olds used serial numbers on stencils that can be accurately dated.

 

Jicaino could you please explain to me the round post flange vs oval post flange. I pulled out my 45ish big b alto, 49ish TH&C alto, 51ish 156 and a late 20s true tone alto and can't figure it out. I'm just curious and just want to be informed. Thanks.

As for the OP I can only add that my 156 case looks pretty much the same as your case except color. All the hardware is the same. However the neck brace looks like a 60s Buesher neck brace like on the late 400s,the ones without an underslung neck. Take it with a grain of salt though as i'm no where near as informed as others on here.

Edit: Jicaino I think I know what you are talking about now. Where the post connects to the body? It is oval on the true tone and Diamond shaped on all the other saxes I mentioned.

 

Yes, you got it right, the posts feet. Even the first grossly cheaped Aristocrat pre selmer (S-33 or 1033) had the oval feet posts. The round feet posts comes in around early 400000. And that brace comes in at about 450k on buescher aristocrat tenors.

OP you may date the harware and badges and everything very accurately, but you cannot date when it was built. Buescher had an enormous amount of stocked parts, cases, bdges, sheet metal, formed bows, bells, etc... and they used to put together the second lines and stencils with watever they found (more or less) so it's not acurate even to date a stenciled horn by its features. Most Elkharts built around the 40's looked like a mid 20's true tone, mid fifties they looked like an Aristocrat without articulated G#, horns like yours are most likely from early/mid 60's. You got it in '69 my guess is that the horn wasn't that old when you got it. 5 years more or less wich would place the date of assembly around mid 60's.

 

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=2764

round post flanges, the same neck bracing as your Elkhart. 355K. This configuration lasted until the end of the Aristocrats as we understand them. The S-33 and others were a cheapening of the Aristocrats that happened before the buyout, like this one:

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=2766

that one doesn't have round posts flanges, and the bracing on the neck (not shown here) is different. At around that time, the distinctive features that once was first line propietary features (if it was featured as "new" on an Aristocrat or 400's it wouldn't have made it into the stencil line) would have made it into the stencils line. Your horn is not even late 50's as I initially said, it is mid 60's.

Edit:
http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=2765

same neck bracing. That neck bracing was gone of them Aristocrats or super 400's by mid 60's, around the time I guesstimate your Elkhart's built date. Take a look at them cases too. They have the same latches that you say they couldn't be made in the mid 60's.

 

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=6513

this is the bracing (see neck) that started at around mid 60's on the aristocrats. This one is post buyout but still applies.

 

OK everyone, now I am super confused..... This tenor has THE EXACT same engraving on the bell as mine and THE EXACT same neck and THE EXACT same green felt padding but they claim it's from the 1920-1930's....(Which I don't believe is accurate) My serial # is roughly 13,000 lower than theirs. WTH? I'm more confused now than before I started this post. I wish they had photos of the case.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300589621005

I cannot find anything different between the 2 necks: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=235965013107239&set=a.235964986440575.52937.100000812259222&type=1&theater

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...fbid=235965046440569&set=a.235964986440575.52937.100000812259222&type=1&theater

As far as I can tell, it's the exact same Elkhart as mine but my serial is a few thousand lower. If the seller is not mistaken about the date, I give up....

 

OK everyone, now I am super confused..... This tenor has THE EXACT same engraving on the bell as mine and THE EXACT same neck and THE EXACT same green felt padding but they claim it's from the 1920-1930's....(Which I don't believe is accurate) My serial # is roughly 13,000 lower than theirs. WTH? I'm more confused now than before I started this post. I wish they had photos of the case.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300589621005

As far as I can tell, it's the exact same Elkhart as mine but my serial is a few thousand lower. If the seller is not mistaken about the date, I give up....

Don't give up yet.:mrgreen:

The seller is mistaken in lots of ways. It isn't a Buescher True Tone, although it shares a few characteristics. The seller is dating from a Buescher serial chart which would put the horn at about 1921, therefore the "1920-1930."

FWIW, Buescher didn't make a tenor with that much bell flare until the 40's.

 

Thank goodness, because that would have driven me nuts. It's the exact same neck and engraving so our 2 horns were made very near each other, maybe within the same year or 2... This is mine: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...fbid=235965013107239&set=a.235964986440575.52937.100000812259222&type=1&theater

I sure would like to see the case for that horn...

 

I guess they posted a pic of the case but its not original. It is the same case as my tenor. The detail is not great but the shape of the brand logo is that of a Buescher not an Elkhart. About the year saintsday is right he is mistaken. I see that mistake happen a lot on ebay where the seller uses the Buescher serial list to find the date without realizing that the Elkharts and other stencils don't use the same serial list. It would be nice if a lot of elkhart owners could piece together a rough serial list for them. Surely some sales receipts have to exist or some original owners.

 

I guess they posted a pic of the case but its not original.

What the...?! You mean the horn may not be in the correct case! How could that be?

FWIW, I've seen shops switch cases and horns before they even get sold as new. Dating the horn by its case is only valid if the original string connecting the case to the horn is still intact.

 

A weird and most ineffective and nonsensical way to date a horn. By its case. I guess that if you see my TH&C and my Protec XL case you can draw very interesting conclusions...

 

There is currently a photo print add for Elkhart tenor and alto saxes on EBAY that dates to 1956.

I'll add the link below.... good estimates by the experts

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Elkhar...xophones-photo-print-ad-/140604123514?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20bca8a97a

 

Hi, If you are interested I bought the Elkhart add that you mention to go with my Elkhart Serial No 71XXX which I was lucky enough to buy on ebay in almost perfect cosmetic condition. I've had the instrument totally repadded wth metal resonators-although my tech here in Spain used rivet pads for the top keys-D to F because he couldn't find any others. I have a Buffet Crampon ROC which plays superbly on my Link7 and although I have only put in 6 hours on the Elk, I feel the Buffet has a warmer sound especially down below. Still, I'm very happy with the Elkhart and maybe it's a question of getting used to it. One last point which is so nice. The thumb hooks WERE SO MUCH BETTER ON THE OLD HORNS!! the plastic adjustable hook on the Buffet nearly destroyed my thumb until I got a thumb protector. I remember my Selmer Radio Improved I had back in the 70s and the hook was just like the Elkhart's. I can give you the details of the add if you want and if my wife shows me I could send you a scanned copy(I'm 65 and not too brilliant with computers!! All the very best Graham