That looks pretty snug all right. I try to stick to newer stuff.

 

Have never seen this before. Looks like Frank made it.

 

sorry, drawing a blank on Frank.

 

The F Bottie.

 

Couldn't quite make sense of it myself Fora minute.

 

Oh that Frank. I just asked him whether he could interface with the search function. You know, make himself useful.

 

The site has a better plugin app for that. Just tag @ Milandro. The results returned are amazingly accurate.

 

@paulwl are there any other pictures of that octave system ? By chance a complete picture of the C melody?

 

The C is currently at eBay: Pardon Our Interruption...

Another pic, a good sharp one this time.

 

Thanks for the link. I wonder if this alto has a round touch pinky G# too. I don’t recall seeing that feature ever on a Conn.

 

One thing I am not understanding. Even early conventional 1 touch octave mechs have an armature from the G stack key which keeps the body pip key closed when you are playing above a G. I'm not seeing an armature that keeps the body pip closed here.

I DO see that the pip key is SPRUNG to remain in the closed position UNLESS the armature coming off from the octave keytouch arm/stem engages it from the bottom/below...and that armature is pivoting off if a part of the octave touch up higher....but am not quite making sense as to how the G stack key would engage this mechanism (?)

 

I wish I could better understand your explanation. The word armature may be confusing me. I've never heard it applied to a saxophone.

And no, I don't see anything connected to G acting on the body vent.

Here are more pix of the top half of the 17xxx alto in case they reveal anything.
(right-click to enlarge)

 

I think I sort of understand how this works. I believe the key that includes the body pin (that actuates the neck octave key), drawn in orange and labeled "Key B" below, is connected to the G key at its lower end, so that if you press G, the left side of the orange key stays down. None of the pictures show that G-key-connection clearly. Here I've tried to annotate the picture.

So, I think that at Point A, the upper end of the octave touch: the blue octave touch runs over the orange key, labeled B. And the top end of the green helper key labeled C, may run under orange key B. Also I think the blue key must run over the green key at some point. I don't 100% understand how the green key is pivoted. I think:

- if you don't press the octave touch, everything at Point A stays down. Both octave pips are closed. Not 100% sure how the lower end of green key stays down?

- if you press the octave touch and G, the left side of the orange key stays down, so the octave pin stays down, neck pip is closed, and the top end of the green key stays down at Point A. But the bottom end of the green key is allowed to rise (because the blue touch key isn't holding it down), and it opens the body octave.

- if you press the octave touch and not G, the left side of the orange key comes up, opening the neck octave key/pip. This also allows the top end of the green key to rise, which lets the bottom end of the green key fall, so the body octave pip closes (I assume there's a leaf spring under the body octave key that closes it).

Phew!

 

Yes ! That’s what I see too. Great job annotating the mechanics !!
There’s got to be some funky pivoting in those arms ? Tech H€ll 👹
I wonder if there is a patent on file for this. I think @lostcircuits is the best member at searching patent records…

 

The linked octave keys were invented in the 1880s - early 90s. I am not sure but I believe it was Evette Schaeffer or Millereau who first introduced them into production in the early 1890s but It did not really catch on with the US manufacturers until ~ 1904 ish.

If there was a patent, it was probably a French patent with a possible US continuance and it might explain the time lag between the invention and the production but that's pure speculation. I'll dig through my collection of patents and see if there is anything I can find.

On a side note, that tight slot for the octave actuator was used at least until 1918. Conn Wonder, NW1, all have it.

 

On a side note, that tight slot for the octave actuator was used at least until 1918. Conn Wonder, NW1, all have it.

My 1916 NW1 #35xxx tenor doesn’t have this setup.

 

I think he means just the slot on the neck receiver, not the whole mechanism.

On a related note I hypothesize, but have yet to solidly confirm, that the switch from this primitive automatic octave key to a more-refined one is what marks the change from the Perfected Wonder to the New Invention.

To the original point, I wonder if there's enough clearance between the two arms for a strip of UHMW or something on one of them that would reduce rattling while being slick enough to not cause them to bind.

 

That matches mes petites cellules grises.
I don't have that patent and it is not listed in the USPTO data base. I can try to search the WIPO page but it is asinine ...

 

OK, that's even more interesting. I've got an alto (36151) with drawn toneholes, no patent stamp, no pearl key touches. I've found another alto with serial just a bit lower (still 36xxx), and it's all soldered. I've also seen a couple altos with higher numbers in the 36xxx range that are proper NWs, patent stamp and everything. I figured there must be some other horns like this one, with drawn tone holes but no patent stamp. But I kind of expected them in the mid-36xxx range, based on what I had already found.

There’s a very long thread in the Conn section on this subject. I can’t find it at the moment. Best to move the conversation to that thread. Let’s not derail this one anymore.