I agree with jmathesonjr - I also think that wood clarinets sound woodier - but it has a lot to do with playing too - on the downside after a gig all your pals are down the pub while your still mopping out your good old wood clarinet.

 

When you're a private teacher you get to play a lot of students' instruments.
I've played Vito, Bundy, and Yamaha plastic clarinets. I've played Selmer Signet 100's, old Artly and Normandy student wood models. I've got a metal, a couple of wood intermediates and a few wood pro clarinets in my personal collection.

My untrained and un-professional ears hear that the plastic clarinets sound plastic. They seem to lack something even when played with my mpc. I don't know if it's core, color, or ring. The students almost always sound better on my wood instruments with their mpc.

Plastic and hard rubber clarinest have their place, and I'm not knocking them.
I'm only saying that I can hear a slight difference while playing them, and prefer the sound of wood.

 

Lazarus played a hard rubber horn throughout his long professional career. Albert system as well. I've never read any criticism of his tone.

Using a metal horn has become so much of a sin that you dare not drag one out in most clarinet circles. Having said that, my metal Selmer sounds about like a vintage Selmer clarinet from the period, and that was good enough for a vast swath of professional players through the 1920's and 1930's

 

Using a metal horn has become so much of a sin that you dare not drag one out in most clarinet circles. Having said that, my metal Selmer sounds about like a vintage Selmer clarinet from the period, and that was good enough for a vast swath of professional players through the 1920's and 1930's

I also have a Selmer Paris metal clarinet from around 1929 or 1930. People are surprised that it sounds like... a clarinet.

There is this interesting site which challenges your ability to differentiate between a metal or wooden clarinet:
http://www.skyleapmusic.com/MetalClarinetTest.html

Have fun!

 

Carl,

Yes, "tonal ring" is the term used among clarinet guys for the quality of sound I'm trying to describe.

I've played quite a few clarinets over the years. Prior to David Speigelthall turning me on to Couesnon Monopole several years ago, my favorite clarinet had been a 1968 R13 I had for many years until we parted ways (very sad). It had a gorgeous sound. However, when I acquired my 70's Monopole and started getting into it I was quickly blown away by the amount of ring and resonance in its sound. Going by memory, it seems to me that my CM has an even more resonant sound than my old R13.

Perhaps some of the hard-core classical guys on the woodwind.org forum can explain the experience of tonal ring with a wood clarinet in greater depth and clarity.

Roger

 

I understand about the difference in tone. Mostly I'm just playing devils advocate. Personally I've never played a plastic or hard rubber clarinet. I have 4 exceptional (wood) soprano clarinets - all french from the same region, but I think the design and execution still has a much greater effect on the tone than the material ever will. My exposure to metal clarinets is limited to 2 and both have a really pretty decent tone.

A little metal Eb I've got on loan has a lovely wooden quality to it that is so much sweeter than the wooden instruments I remember from college. If I am ever allowed to purchase it I will never need another Eb, this one has it all. My metal Bb is a decent instrument, and I've got no problem with playing it in public with the concert band or big band (I play 1st or solo clarinet). However, I would never use it to play principal or second with the symphony as it is lacking that special sound I get with my wooden instruments. I don't believe the material has a bit to do with it, but the quality of assembly and finesse do not compare to a truly fine instrument.

I am open to giving a greenline a blow sometime, but have no desire to purchase one. I have been looking for a plastic/hard rubber clarinet for beater duty, but so far nothing has done much for me.


Mouthpieces are a much more significant matter and a whole nother can of worms which I care not to discuss.

 

1. It seems odd that so often people who are most emphatic about the glories of wood and the sound it imparts, but have done so little playing on plastic clarinets to give them a fair go.

2. "Toby, there are times when I feel the body of my clarinet vibrating under my fingers. It seems to me that your answer does not explain the tonal ring that one can have with high quality grenadilla wood. This is a big factor for me."

Roger, it seems a mighty big leap, from the feel of vibration under your fingers, to "tonal ring". That feel - tactile only, has nothing to do with "tone" unless it is actually heard.

3.
I wonder if there is more tactile ring in one wooden body than another simply depending on whether there is complete wood (or metal) connection (in a mechanical sense) from the mouthpiece to the body, to transfer the vibrations of the reed slapping on the mouthpiece, to the body. I am thinking of tenons either pushed completely home, or tenon rings to make an internal connection.

I, too love that feel of the instrument vibrating in my fingers, but I regard it as tactile rather than auditory. Does the audience perceive it!

 

.....

Does the audience perceive it!

The one question that defines the difference between amateur and professional.

 

OK but all the clarinets I`ve looked up are made of either ABS resin or wood. Are cured rubber ones made and are many ever sold? There can`t be many if general advertising makes no mention.

 

There is quite a number of hard rubber clarinets around, old and new. Ridenour's and Forté are two examples of currently available instruments, and on eBay the old honkers pop up every so often; mostly those are greenish now, because of the sulphur in the HR mix (same as mouthpieces).

Then, not all resins are ABS - the stuff used in Bundies and Vitos is different, more brittle, and reminds me of bakelite. Then there's PVC and Buffet's greenline. Because of the visual difference and the manufacturing process, one simplifyingly classifies the materials as "metal", "wood" and "plastic".

 

Forte isn't hard rubber.

 

Oops. I stand corrected.

Hanson, however, has HR clarinets.

 

The early Chinese clarinets - "Lark" - were hard rubber. The sulphur vapours from it made the silver plating go black.

 

I don't see how the instrument vibrating would affect any tonal quality ... if only so minutely. The tonal quality "ring" as mentioned is documented by people such as moennig as to be part of the internal bore design .. the mouthpiece really helps too. Certain mpcs really help to bring out that particular "ring" that one originally associates with R13s

So internal bore design and mpc based on reading knowledge. I've never fiddle with an internal bore design to correlate variation with various tonal quality variations ... who has that amount of spare time ??

FYI, i've played on some mpc such as Links where i've been able to really get the instrument to vibrate greatly. pretty neat ... with the only adverse effect is rattling the keywork off !! not really, but it seemed like it could

 

If the instrument were vibrating on pitch while being played, I would think it would have exceptionally poor response. Anything which has mass resists changing its state, making changing pitch a time consuming process - waiting for the body of the instrument to change the rate at which it is vibrating to match the new note being played.

 

Toby, etc...

First, I'm not saying that tonal ring is produced by the body of the clarinet vibrating. I was simply responding to Toby's statement about the wood in a clarinet body being static. Clearly, the wood does vibrate. However, I'm not suggesting that's the reason for tonal ring. Frankly, I DON'T know why one clarinet has a vibrant ringing sound and another does not. It's a complete mystery to me.

Second, I don't imagine qualities in my sound. Much of my musical training is in composition and for many years I've paid great attention to listening to sublities in tonal clolor. Thus, I pay considerable attention to detail when I'm playing and listening to my sound.

Tonal ring is a term often used among classical clarinetists. I readily admit that I did not understand it for many years. The clarinets I used for the past 7 or 8 years were larger bore instruments and I cannot say that I experienced much ring with them. Thus, when I heard classical clarinet buddies discussing tonal ring I wasn't exactly sure what they were talking about. However, when I acquired my 70's Monopole it took only several notes to say to myself "Wow, that's what they mean about ring!". Simply put, my .574 bore Monopole has tons of ring whereas my .580 bore Monopole has a beautiful sound but not the level of ring as the other Monopole.

I do not know why one clarinet has more ring than another. It comes down to trying a bunch of clarinets and finding one that -- for whatever mysterious reason -- has a truly exceptional quality of sound.

No, I have not had an oppurtunity to try a Greenline. I'd like to as I've been curious about it.

PS, I agree with Steve that some mouthpiece/reed setups can help to bring out more ring in a clarinet. However, in my experience that goes only so far. My setup on my 70's Monopole is a Grabner K14, #3 Legere Quebec, and a Klassik string ligature. When I use my K14 setup on my 1960 Monopole it doesn't have anywhere the level of ring as my 70's Monopole. I get a bit more ring on my 1960 Monopole with a Grabner K11e. However, it's still nowhere the level of ring produced by the 70's Monopole.

Roger

 

Roger,
I'll try to find the text from Moennig that explains why a clarinet "rings" - the internal design stuff... it's interesting when i read it (some time ago now).

but i've been through a bunch of clarinets looking for the ringing tonal qualities. i wasn't a buffet person before until i found that "ringing" tonal quality in them - vintage, not any of the newer ones which require too much $$ to get into.

Steve

 

Steve,

Thanks! Looking forward to hearing what Moenning says about it.

Of course, other instruments besides clarinets have special tonal qualities....such as old string instruments that have exceptional tonal qualities that are difficult to duplicate.

As another example.....

I've played many saxophones over the years. For a long time I had dreamed about having a Buescher New Aristocrat. When I finally got my hands on one several years ago I was deeply impressed by its quality of sound...which I'd describe as "ringing". I've played late model True Tones and Aristocrats (including an early 1935 model). At least with the Bueschers I've tried, none of them had the particular ringing sound of the New Aristocrat. Whenever I've traded messages with other New Aristocrat players on the Forum they, too, often speak in glowing terms of a "ringing" sound with their horn. I have absolutely no idea WHY the New Aristocrat has this quality of sound. My repair tech -- who is an expert with vintage horns -- cannot explain it either. He simply says some horns are more outstanding than others in a similiar serial number range.

I'm just giving this as another example of how we can stumble upon a particular horn that has an exceptional quality of sound. For me, I don't put much energy into trying to understand why an instrument plays like it does. I simply play it, love it, and consider myself lucky in finding it. (Makes up for the rip-off deals I got myself into when I first got back into playing. ha ha ha)

Roger

 

I'm just giving this as another example of how we can stumble upon a particular horn that has an exceptional quality of sound.

Hmm, yes, that sounds like the holy grail we all are searching.

I think, the equation starts at the mouth cavity (or the beer gut that damps the backfiring air column?) and ends with the venue we're playing in (not to mention what is to be played). And I think this is a good thing - so many instruments to choose from, no one has the world formula, and you never know until you find something that just works.

Happy hunting!