The Dave Pollack experiment is not relevant to this thread. The OP's reference to being a new player and not a professional is front and center of the discussion. I played (listened to) Dave's video while I was reading the other posts and never picked up on when he changed horns or mouthpieces. His sound was consistent through the whole clip. I'm sure if I concentrated on it I could have discerned some differences in his playing but I would have been hard pressed to tell what was what.

 

don't think there's any hard and fast rules around set-up, with a process revolving around personal research and experience as serendipity. my guess that generally the sax purchase proceeds the the search of candidate pieces was blown out of the water by an outstanding alto piece that i suspect would make any decent model horn sound great. but i had the opposite experience with tenor where certain classic horns just naturally seemed to pair up with the obvious veteran pieces. (the Link finally won out over a much appreciate RPC.) with Soprano, i had to a number of reasonable favorites, none quite the one, until a lot of thought, and consultation brought me to fidelity. one a high price piece on the open market, one a generic, one some crafty adaptation of a forgotten classic. if you can see some regular rhyme and reason it it, you'll save a few bucks.

 

IMHO there is a certain point where people should start looking at better mouthpieces but if we are talking an absolute beginner I think its a waste of money to enter the top shelf market. Additionally, I would suggest top flight pieces are not designed for beginners. They also are rarely made in a beginner size tip opening. How long one should wait? I dont know. But not at day one.

 

Additionally, I would suggest top flight pieces are not designed for beginners. They also are rarely made in a beginner size tip opening.

Very good point.

 

Yeah i agree with that.

But i think really nice mouthpieces help players, who are somewhere between beginner and intermediate, to say "wow i never knew that was possible" with their own sound

 

I think your comment is too broad.

.... the thing here is....what is the definition of a 'really nice mouthpiece' ?

It is relative. If you have been playing the stock, no-name piece which came with the horn, and it has been serving you OK (i.e. it doesn't 'hinder' you and is pretty user-friendly)...

...the picking up a mass produced Meyer or Link Rubber ($100-125) ...is, quite arguably, a 'really nice mouthpiece', comparably speaking.

I'd even argue graduating from a no-nameer or a Rico Graftonite ....to a Hite Premier (the latter being around $40)...can fit the definition of "I decided to get a nice mouthpiece".

(I realize this may sound like an anathema to mouthpiece folk....but I think some of you get my drift....)

IOW...how high do you need to go ?

And ...are you (the player) equipped (at this point in your playing development) with the yardstick to discern between one 'really nice mouthpiece' and another (to the degree of which would be 'better' for you) ????

 

What is the point of a beginner putting a $1000 mouthpiece on any horn? I'd love a Theo Wanne but will it make me a better player? I think not. I think a player with a well-developed embouchure and good technique will make any well-faced mouthpiece sound good. But a player without that skill and embouchure isn't going to get a great return for their money. But hey, if you have the money and mouthpieces are your thing then why not.

 

I think that the cost of horns is much more tied to quality than it is for mouthpieces. What I mean is that price of most horns reflects their quality. The exceptions are "closet finds" or collector horns whose price is very inflated. (I'm looking at you, Mark VI.) But the price of many mouthpieces is nuts and, to me, don't seem to be correlated to quality. There are perfectly good mouthpieces to be had for $100-$200. Mouthpieces that are priced at, say, $800 are not 4 or 5 times better. In fact, one of the best mouthpieces out there, depending on the player, is $30. (Metalite, if you're wondering.) You might be able to find a decent tenor for, say, $2500 to $3000 but the $5,000 horn may be noticeably better.

 

That could be a good plan. However, I couldn't feel the difference between a $100 and a $500 mouthpiece until I'd been playing for about 5 years (~3000 hrs) of quality practice. I had played guitar and knew the difference between a cheap and expensive guitar, so I bought a pro horn immediately.

 

The horn is the horn, even a year or two later. A noob player, however, might need a really tight mp at first, and outgrow it several times as their chops develop. That could get mighty expensive in a hurry!

 

I am in agreement with Pete Thomas, 10M Fan and several others here, including the video made by Dave Pollack shared here in comment #26, that the mouthpiece matters significantly more than the horn.

Having done decades of mouthpiece refacing for professionals and students alike, I can say some of the best experiences I had were refacing mouthpieces for students and/or helping them find the right mouthpiece for them. Once the students got an expertly refaced mouthpiece, or a high quality mouthpiece tailored to the type of playing they wanted, I would see them get so excited by their music. It was not uncommon for me to have students later tell me how they had previously thought of quitting music, but now 'they just can't get enough'. Seeing the quality of a student's mouthpiece be so instrumental in their ability to stick with their music, and then become passionate about it, had a big impact on me.

As Dave Pollack shared at the end of his video, having a mouthpiece you feel 'free' and 'unconstrained by' just opens the creative and expressive doors. It makes us 'want' to play!

A student mouthpiece rarely has a facing that is perfect because its expensive, and difficult, to make said facing perfectly smooth, and even, and to be sure the table is also perfectly flat. If these issues are not handled then one just fights the entire instrument, regardless of the quality of that horn. But this is the state of most student mouthpiece simply because of cost constraints.

The truth is our sound is created in the mouthpiece, and the pitch is then determined by the horn. This is why a classical and rock & roll sax player could never play on the same mouthpiece. But they both could play on the same saxophone, and often do. I am not saying the horn doesn't impact the quality of the sound.....it does, but the purpose of a professional quality mouthpiece IS to get us the type of sound we want. Student mouthpieces do not carry this purpose, their purpose is just to make playing easy...which is usually done with a small tip size. Student mouthpieces rarely accomplish their goal of making playing easy though, as their facing are not correct, and table not flat, due to cost constraints.

In regards to price, the 'amount of quality difference between a $50 mouthpiece and $600 alto mouthpiece is far greater than the benefit one gets of 'upgrading' a saxophone for $550. Heck $550 could just be the difference in price for the same saxophone between dealers. But for that same $550 one can go from a very basic mouthpiece with poor facing to a top of the line professional mouthpiece designed for the specific type of sound one wants to get.

There is a magic that happens when we have equipment that allows our creativity to pour out. I got fascinated with saxophone mouthpiece design for this reason as I found that I enjoyed playing any of my many vintage and new horns on the right mouthpiece for me, but didn't enjoy any of them when I had an un-inspiring mouthpiece. This isn't to say some people might love the sound and expression they get from an inexpensive student mouthpiece. But I can definitely say the vast majority of people I have worked with over the years just go crazy-happy when playing a mouthpiece who's facing is correct, and the design is that which opens their individual self-expression up...meaning the mouthpiece was designed to get the 'type' of sound they want. Seeing my customers 'happy dances' after finally finding the mouthpiece that helped their self expression free up is what hooked me into my career.

All of this is why, in my experience, the mouthpiece is so much more important than the horn. I write this not because I make saxophone mouthpieces, but as a testament as to why I've dedicated my life to making them in the first place.

 

Having done decades of mouthpiece refacing for professionals and students alike, I can say some of the best experiences I had were refacing mouthpieces for students and/or helping them find the right mouthpiece for them. Once the students got an expertly refaced mouthpiece, or a high quality mouthpiece tailored to the type of playing they wanted, I would see them get so excited by their music. It was not uncommon for me to have students later tell me how they had previously thought of quitting music, but now 'they just can't get enough'. Seeing the quality of a student's mouthpiece be so instrumental in their ability to stick with their music, and then become passionate about it, had a big impact on me.

From the perspective of someone who taught "students" to play band instruments for over 32 years at the elementary, junior high, and high school levels I can say from experience that the term "students" covers a broad spectrum of talents, natural abilities, motivation, and dedication. I suspect that a high school or college "student" who is motivated enough about playing the saxophone to have "Theo Wanne" reface his/her mouthpiece is at or near the top of that spectrum. Realistically the majority of "students" never reach that level.

Student mouthpieces do not carry this purpose, their purpose is just to make playing easy...which is usually done with a small tip size. Student mouthpieces rarely accomplish their goal of making playing easy though, as their facing are not correct, and table not flat, due to cost constraints.

My experience with directing beginning students toward playing a Yamaha 4C, Fobes Debut, or Hite Premier for their initial training in tone production has been that these mouthpieces in particular are more than adequate for the task. Certainly these "student mouthpieces" can be improved by some "tweaking" by someone skilled at refacing, but I strongly suspect those "nuances" felt by the advanced player doing the "tweaking" will go unnoticed by the beginner playing whole notes and half notes. Advanced players at the junior high and high school levels can certainly benefit from moving up to a Selmer, Vandoren, or Rousseau mouthpiece for concert band and solo work. Those in high school who play well enough to be in their schools jazz ensemble can progress in that style with any one of a number of popular "jazz mouthpieces" under $200 with specs that are within their ability to control.

I have also seen and heard disasterous results at jazz festivals where a band director (usually not a saxophone player) has the school buy wide tip extreme baffle pieces for the saxophone section so they can sound good at festival. Some would say giving a student a mouthpiece that is more than they can handle at the time is ok because they will "grow into it". This brings us back to the student's level of ability, motivation, and dedication. Not all students will "grow into it" and just become frustrated by sudden the lack of control they have over the sound.

 

Horns generally enjoy a reputation, and when you get a pro horn you are usually getting a very fine instrument. When you’re an expert, you can further dig in and try out lots of horns to find the best one. At least, you used to be able t do that. I don’t know if that will happen again or not. At least you can be pretty sure of having a fine base on which to build. Horns can be fixed if they have problems. In other words, it’s not necessary to try a dozen horns (though it can be productive to do that). Get the best horn you can afford, and you won’t regret that.

A mouthpiece is much more specialized and more personal. There’s also a lot of fakery in the mouthpiece world, so it’s much better to try them out when you have developed enough as a player to know what you need. When you’re starting out your ability is so limited. After several years you acquire a lot more control, so trying out mouthpieces at that time will be a lot more productive.

 

Some say to get a student horn to start with and to stay on it for a long time. I see things a little differently. Maybe you can get a student horn to start with, but as soon as you determine that you’re in love with music and that the saxophone is going to be your instrument, you should get a pro-level horn. As soon as you are practicing seriously on etudes and concert pieces, or playing in groups, your student horn will be holding you back. I will never forget that day when I started practicing on a Mark VI. The difference was amazing, and my practicing began moving a lot more swiftly.

The problem, then, is convincing parents to sell your relatively new student horn and pay for a far better one. Most will say “no, you can get by just fine on what you have.” THAT is why I say start with a truly fine horn. The best horns retain their value in resale. Selmer Mark VI saxes tend to appreciate over time, not depreciate. At worst, you can probably get what you paid for it if you research a little and don’t pay too much to start with. Find the middle ground and go with it. Then, if the saxophone doesn’t work out for you, you can resell it and not be out much money.

 

I always tell people that mouthpieces are like shoes, not jackets. You dont buy them to, “Grow into”.

 

I always tell people that mouthpieces are like shoes, not jackets. You dont buy them to, "Grow into".

This will be a first, Phil! I disagree, and tend to follow Phil Woods' statements regarding mouthpieces--you find one and make it your own. That's what I do. Moreover, I tend to disagree with the general consensus of this thread that mouthpiece price corresponds to mouthpiece quality. I think most any modern Vandoren mouthpiece is perfectly situated to allow playing perfection (Branford Marsalis and Victor Goines both play untouched Vandorens when they could play anything they want). They are perfectly viable options to achieve any level of professional playing perfection. And this doesn't include the classical world in which they rarely ever have their mouthpieces touched. I could produce paragraphs in support of this, but I think I have succinctly conveyed my perspective.
Best regards,
Ben

 

I'll ask this here since I'm looking to pick up the best sax I can afford since I want to get back into things. I'm just browsing around different shops for the YTS-62iii and TWO1/TWO2 Tenors currently trying to find the best deal I can.

Depending on what I order and from where. I can get a YTS-62iii from Sax.co.uk for $2900 (w/ setup), or I can get their custom shop version for $3400 (Roo pads w/ metal resonators, heavy mass neck screw, fancy replacement key pearls, professional setup). I could also order from Get A Sax that's also professionally setup for $3450.

Since I'm just getting back into playing for the first time in nearly 15 years I know I won't be able to tell the difference between these for horns years to come. So what's the best way to go? would buying the custom upgrades from the get go even be worth it, or should I just save the cash and throw that in the mouthpiece fund?

 

This has become a very interesting thread indeed!

 

For a true beginner, there is probably no better choice than the Yamaha 4C, or the Fobes Debut (or maybe the Hite Premiere, but I’ve never played one). But after the first year (for a young kid) or few months (for a teenager or adult beginner), a better mouthpiece might be in order. Which one will depend on the player’s goals and needs.

Despite what Theo Wanne said, those beginner mouthpieces generally have flat tables and a smooth, efficient facing curve. What they don’t have is a personality, that sparkle or core or resonance or ...(insert your favorite descriptive here).

I own about 15 tenor mouthpieces, and maybe 10 altos. They are all good, and I played each one for at least a year. Maybe I should have stuck with just one.... but my concepts and my needs changed over time, and I felt (perhaps wrongly) that a different mouthpiece would help.

Interestingly, I only have one clarinet piece. I studied with a traditional classical tutor in my teens, and he knew Frank Kasper, so he had a bunch to try. I chose a good one, played it throughout high school, college and my professional career. I’ve played orchestra music, chamber music, avant-garde music, be-bop and Dixieland on that piece, to say nothing of just plain show music, and it has worked just fine.

The real problem is, today, that you can spend many, many $100’s on a mouthpiece and get a real dog. You can also spend less than $200 and get perfection. But what you can’t do, except in LA or NYC, is go to a store and try a bunch out.

FWIW I agree with Phil Engleman, you need to get a mouthpiece that fits you. It’s a struggle. But what to get? Aside from the standard “Link for tenor, Meyer for alto” advice, which I wouldn’t give today, at least without a disclaimer about QC, the choices are numerous and confusing. I guess the best route is to choose by considering the style of music you like, try to distill some generalities from all the advice given here and elsewhere, make a choice, and stick with it for a year or so.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I mean. There is a point to what Ben has said. I think before we “knew better” we played whatever we could. Yes, my first tenor mouthpiece was an Otto Link STM 7*, but it was the one I picked out at the store after playing a few and I played it until it got stolen. After that I happened on a Dukoff the same way. And I played it until the tip got damaged. Regardless, it was more about playing that what gear I had. The more I got to know the pieces the better I got.

As for the Sax.co.uk don’t forget the duties. That being said, Brian at GetASax seems a nice guy. The 62iii he has is basically full new price so. He also has another 62 coming up soon for a little less but it isn’t a 62iii.

A note on mouthpieces, if you are a beginner I strongly suggest trying to find a Morgan Protone mouthpiece. They are well made and inexpensive. It is a great place to start. Generally, if you can find one, they are around $65-$75. I like them better the the 4C.

 

Yes...to be clear when I say grow into, I am referring to tip size...not wuality.

On the whole I think after a year (on average if that is possible) its worth it for an adult to start looking at mpcs. For someone who has been progressing it can help them along. Thats an opinion based on when I started. Everyone is different. I agree a 4c is great for a true beginner.

 

Yes...to be clear when I say grow into, I am referring to tip size...not wuality.

I am so happy these days that recently I (finally) grew into my wuality. I may post some pics of me wearing it later.

 

Haha...me trying to type on screen rather than a keyboard. I still do crap like that.

Post some pics of your fashion show

 

Thanks for that. It's gonna be the name of my band's next CD.

(Back off everyone else :evil:, I called dibs, fair and square !!)

 

When we think of beginner, there may be a world of difference between a (possibly reluctant) schoolkid, and an enthusiastic an dedicated player (OK, could still be a schoolkid).

I mean the difference between someone who does 20 mins every other day because their parents make them (best on a 4C) and someone who just fell in love with the instruments and dedicates every spare moment. - those are the beginners who may be very soon better off with something (still quite low priced) like a Rousseau, Vandoren or Yanagisawa HR.

But again they may not have developed enough to understand all the nuances of reed vs tip vs facing curve so until they do, still best (IMO) to not start paying the big bucks on experimenting too much. Unless of course they have plenty of expendable income in which case go for it I say and buy as many of Phil's and Theo's mouthpieces as they like.

 

I cant agree with you more Pete.
Feel free to send expendable income my way

 

So what's this all about then, you should spend more money on mouthpieces? Well, the mouthpiece makers certainly aren't going to disagree with that. No surprise there. But hey, I'll tell ya what I think. If you've got a mouthpiece that's worth over five hundred bucks... you might want to think about selling it. If you're going to buy one, don't spend more than three hundred; and some can get on rather well spending only a third of that or less.

 

I dont think someone at a year should be spending three and four hundred. I do think its time for many to step up from a 4c.

Frankly, most mpc makers don’t encourage beginners to invest big bucks. They dont need to, they mostly dont know what they want, and they are likely to change. Most of us want customers happy they made an investment vs spending on a consumable.

 

Well, maybe there’s a place for the “opposite” view. I started again after a lag of 30+ years, but I had kept my horns that were pro quality by any measure (a Selmer Mk. VI/VII bari, SML GM2 alto and SML GM1 era soprano). I can’t say that these horns gave my any shortcuts! True, for awhile I had no comparison with “student” horns. Then I bought a student level curved soprano (for travel, cabin compatible and less pain if something happens) meaning, I have a reference point for horns. So, the playing experience went straight to the mouthpiece department (including reeds). I’ve played now “seriously” for 1.5 years rarely missing a day (1/2 hour to 2-3 hours).

One thing is for sure. You will notice the changes along your progression. First I tried to buy my sound via mouthpieces, which failed quite significantly. We seem to look too much at tip opening without stressing the issue of baffle. I’m ashamed to say how much pro gear descriptions affected me! Guys play with 10* opening on #4reeds. With my low mileage, I dare to say now that it was sssoooo wrong. For the bari, I bought a Rico metallite #7 (.110) and shortly after that a Link STM 7 (.110). The Link was surprisingly easy to play despite very low baffle. I had played my old Mayer 7M (.103?), but obviously looked for another sound (which the Mayer obviously could produce, but I could not). To make the long story short. Now I’m playing my old Link Slant Sig #5 with La Voz M reeds and the sound is amazing!! Very Ronnie Cuber like (who also played Phil adjusted Link). What I can understand, the baffle of these Slant Sigs is different from the moderns?? If I get any better, my next step probably will be La Voz MH, not a new mouthpiece.

With alto and sop, the story is a bit more complicated. For both, I bought a 4C to get started again. However, I dumped them very soon. I’ve tried a lot of MPCs and I had an old Link TM!! For the alto, I bought Vandoren V16 A5 and Jody HR* #6 and finally ended up with Theo Wanne NY Bros.2. Now I’m trying to find the right reed. However, I have a Florida Link STM (no USA #7), which one day may become the one?? Also for the sop I have a rare (?) small ring throat Link TM #6*, which feels amazing but I’m still looking for the right reed as well. Meanwhile I’m getting along with my Jody HR* #6, which also was too steep for me in the beginning. Therefore, I bought a Selmer S80 C**, to advance. See, wrong choice of tip opening will cost you!

So, it’s a process. I can feel some difference in sound with my two sops but not critical (pro vs. student). For me it’s been about the mouthpieces and the very underestimated issue of REEDs. Few boxes of reeds cost like a medium priced mouthpiece. For instance Sax.co.uk offers a possibility to buy different reeds in a package, which may help you significantly. I, personally, have found the mouthpiece/REED combination to be the major issue concerning your progress and satisfaction. If you can afford a pro horn, by all means. Take into account that you can sink a lot of money in mouthpieces in no time. Without the right choice, you’re not getting far. Before you do anything else, check your reed options!

 

A case for an opposite view? an excellent case in fact.

 

My personal experience was to to delve too far into gear too soon. However, in hindsight changing from a 4c to a different mpc did not necessarily make my sound better but it did make me sound closer to what I liked. I feel that was important as it made me want to play more and work harder. At six months or a year I certainly didnt drop three bills ore more on a mpc.