So much for circular breathing.

I’ve always inhaled through my nose when playing any horn, without breaking embouchure. Not sure, but I believe when I began playing trumpet someone advised it. But I see a lot of players who continually reset.

 

"Breathing from the diaphragm" has NOTHING to do with circular breathing. Nor does taking a full deep breath depend on whether you inhale through mouth or nose (although inhaling through the nose may be more restrictive for some).

And yes, to the OP's point, it is amazing that so many people have to relearn to breathe naturally like a baby.

Z - What would you rather call it? "Belly breathing", "yoga breathing"??? "From the diaphragm" is what I heard in music classes in the '60s and '70s. The term has been in popular use for a while, regardless of being physiologically incorrect. What do you tell students to do?

I sometimes instruct people to lay on their back and to be aware of their stomach rising as they inhale. It doesn't seem to take much to understand that, but how does one describe the sensation to remind them?

 

I've spent much of my working life teaching breathing for voice, which is pretty much the same thing. It is not a simple thing for new students to understand and make automatic. It takes a while. I've heard that some college-level voice classes will spend a month or longer on breathing alone, before a note is sung.

Fun fact-- you cannot tell a student to "press down on their diaphragm" or to perform any particular action with the diaphragm because it's not a muscle that a person has any conscious control over. Yet here we'll see plenty of folks claiming they do this and that "with their diaphragm" so obviously some internal concept has been developed that works for the person, despite using inaccurate terminology and sense of what's actually happening from a physiological standpoint.

Actually the thing you're pressing down with is your good ol' abdominals. From a quick perusal this page seems to do a good job explaining it.

Contact Support

 

Proper breathing through the mouth as you describe was one of the first things I was taught. Problem is not everybody learns from an in person teacher anymore or learns in an organized way as you would in band class. The fact that you're asking a group of random strangers on the internet advice on proper breath control is proof of this. So, yes, I agree it should be the first thing a wind player or singer should be taught, and it is if you have a competent teacher.

The way I was taught was to expand the abdomen when breathing in without raising the shoulders or puffing out the chest. The result of this is contracting the diaphragm as you described and using the abs to push the air out as you play and the diaphragm naturally relaxes.

 

I have a DVD by these guys (both word-class orchestral tuba players) that I sometimes use in beginner band classes. Or I just do the exercises without playing the videos. Great ways to experience deep breathing and control of your airstream.

 

Thanks for the opinions! Referring to my original post, am I doing it right? I have found that I can hold a note for 16 seconds, if I remember to keep pushing down ‘til there is hardly any air left, then pushing up to expel the last bit. I think I got this from yoga. “16 seconds, you say…”, how long, in general, should one be able to sustain a low G at pp?

 

I've never timed it. It sounds like you're on the right track - "pushing up" is foreign to me, but there is some abdominal pushing sensation as the breath runs out. Stop just before your tone and intonation start to suffer.

 

When holding very long notes, I usually run out of oxygen before I've emptied my lungs (air gets stale as they say). On horns that don't take much air, like soprano, I often have to vent through the corners of my mouth in order to maintain a good breathing cadence. But I'm a big guy with big lungs.

I've never really given breathing much thought. If I've got an unusually long phrase coming up, I'll take an extra deep breath. Otherwise I just take normal, quick breaths. Regardless, I think the key here is to maintain pressure with the abs rather than just rely on a relaxing diaphragm. I think this happens automatically for most people. But if you have a weak tone, you definitely need to take a good, deep breath and push with the abdomen.

Obviously circular breathing is impossible if you breath through the mouth, so we're talking about two distinct techniques here. But if you don't or can't circular breathe, breathing through the nose won't allow you to take big or quick enough breaths. So I would not recommend nose breathing outside of circular breathing.

 

Interesting how people misread. When someone writes:

“This is what I’m trying to learn: bring your air in through the mouth, filling your lungs right to their bottom, by pushing down the diaphragm, then keeping it down until you need to gradually force the air back out. Am I correct?”

The technique being advised is to inhale through the mouth, no? Opposite of what I do; sorry, “Doctor.” Maybe it’s the OP’s style of play, or volume needed, or playing condition of the horn? But the best players I have heard were not huffing and puffing lungfuls of air. Sounds to me like a how-to on hyperventilating.

I’ve always had faith that students knew they’d need to inhale before exhaling. My advice is just to relax their breathing. Certainly not going to ask some 8th-9th grade girl to lie on the floor for me and belly-breathe. But, hey, it’s just opinion.

 

Interesting how people misread. When someone writes:

“This is what I’m trying to learn: bring your air in through the mouth, filling your lungs right to their bottom, by pushing down the diaphragm, then keeping it down until you need to gradually force the air back out. Am I correct?”

The technique being advised is to inhale through the mouth, no? Opposite of what I do; sorry, “Doctor.” Maybe it’s the OP’s style of play, or volume needed, or playing condition of the horn? But the best players I have heard were not huffing and puffing lungfuls of air. Sounds to me like a how-to on hyperventilating.

It sounds to me like you don't know much about breathing. As I said in response to your earliest post, breathing from the diaphragm and supporting the air that is being exhaled through the horn is NOT contingent on whether the air is inhaled through the nose or mouth - it still goes to the lungs. Yes, players may choose to reset their embouchure - I often inhale through the corners of my mouth. It really doesn't matter with regard to good support of the airstream.

I’ve always had faith that students knew they’d need to inhale before exhaling. My advice is just to relax their breathing. Certainly not going to ask some 8th-9th grade girl to lie on the floor for me and belly-breathe. But, hey, it’s just opinion.

If you're concerned about being creepy, perhaps you should examine your intent.

 

Well, another consideration for breathing is the particular piece you're playing. You will need to take in air at different intervals depending on how many notes are to be played or held during certain passages. Sometimes when playing a new piece I will notate on the sheet music where to take in air. If you are already playing flute or clarinet you may already know this.

 

@sandster sorry the pages are out of sequence. Hope this helps answer your question.

 

Wow! Thank you, pigsquealer! I’ll be a while taking this all in.

 

How I taught beginners proper breathing and blowing habits (without using the terms "diaphragm" or "breath support")

• Sit up straight on the front part of the chair with both feet flat on the floor (or stand with good posture).
• Raise your ribcage and keep your shoulders relaxed.
• Take as big a breath as you can by expanding your middle section and not raising your shoulders.
• Think of filling a bucket of water where the water fills the bottom first.
• When you are full of air, hiss as loud as you can, this is how it feels to blow with pressurized air.
• Holding a half sheet of paper against a window or mirror as long as you can by blowing on it teaches the concept as well.

 

I think most people who had a teacher or a book early on learned a way to cue efficient breathing. I taught breathing exercises in physical therapy all day long…most people just don’t breathe well when exercising either. Also for pulmonary rehab. We all learn differently and really all you need is a firm abdominal wall and enough control or resistance in your setup to achieve a balance.

 

All sax players should start on clarinet.

 

Hard disagree. I would've quit after a year on clarinet.

 

I’m reading an interesting book on breathing: “breath” by James Nestor. Maybe not totally for wind players but a good look at breathing in general. One D. Sanborn is mentioned as being helped by a pulmonaut named Carl Stough. Nestor’s book is a very good read for anyone interested in breathing. 😤

 

Breath? What do you mean? I have not breathed since 1982, and I am OK. Well, except for all those people yelling "Zombie" all the time. That is sort of irritating.

 

I believe practicing breathing techniques is important because if I just go to the sax and start playing a long three/four measure note I’m puffed out. If I warm up to it I’m fine but still I’m just working on instinct only not skills.

 

Iterating…. Please get some lessons. A voice coach can help with this. No sarcasm. I studied voice with an opera singer back in the ‘70s, and it propelled my sound on tenor.

 

All joking aside, I learned how to breath with an instructor beginning in 1968. After a while, you read the music and see where to breath. Your ability improves with the necessary discipline. Decent instruction helps with phrasing as well.

 

I find breathing as a singer easy. But trying to maintain the sax air pressure while running out on a long phrase or playing low note long tones gets me really tensed up. I find myself breathing in on the next breath with a constricted airway and my thumbs and shoulders racking up unpleasant tension. I would love to be able to practice low note long tones more, but in just a few minutes I start to hurt. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. It is the last part of the long exhalation that I can't seem to do without becoming a ball of tension. I practice long phrases even though the tension comes, because I need to be able to push myself past my boundaries in a performance, but I wish I could develop better patterns for dealing with it. Perhaps I need to slow down and analyze what's going on more.

Exellent info, everyone!

 

"Why aren’t all beginning wind players first taught the correct way to breathe?" What we have here is a couple of assertions concealed in a question. How do you know what all beginning wind players are taught? And what is the correct way, or is there in fact a correct way?

 

Swim laps 20+ minutes every day. If you don't drown you'll be breathing in a way somewhat similar to playing the saxophone, without any of the overanalysing.

Seriously, more wind musicians should spend a lot more time working on aerobic and anaerobic fitness. National guidelines for the general population are 150 minutes moderate exercise per week. How few musicians get that? And they wonder why they are having trouble breathing. Don't neglect the fundamentals. And the fundamentals should begin with an exercise program.

 

Let me add my personal experience on this subject.
Most of what I have read and seen on this subject is IMHO missing the point.
They all tell us that breathing is important, that you need to breathe from the belly (abdomen, .....) and of course, those things are important.
Myself, I always did that (from my background in Aikido, where breathing exercises are also important). But there was something lacking....
About 6 months ago I started working (with my teacher) on my breath support. She explained how it is more about controlling how much air you release when breathing out and keeping a constant pressure.
She is also a singing teacher and gave me a PDF-version of "Complet Vocal technique" where breathing and breath support are explained very well. I can feel now that I am starting to understand (and master) what I need to get a good breath support.
....
In short: most people who explain how to breathe miss the points about breath support

 

Agreed. Good players can produce a great tone and even long notes with not a lot of air in the lungs…but with the correct support.

 

The volume of air you need to take in is required for the right muscles in your midsection to pressurize the airstream, not because that much air actually moves through the horn. This is easier to demonstrate on trumpet. Just tape a bag over the bell and play a long tone; the bag barely fills up.

 

Short answer: because the teachers were never taught how to breathe. Over the years, doing private lessons with school age kids, I always ask if they were taught how to breathe in their regular band class. Usually the answer is "no", or just the usual "take a full breath and keep support" type of thing. With beginners I always start with getting them on the road to learning to breathe correctly. A teacher of mine in college took a lesson with Joe Allard. The first thing Allard had him do was, not so much an exercise, but a method to find out what it feels like to take a breath correctly. What you do is lay on the floor with your arms relaxed at your sides. Bring your feet up underneath you, under you butt, raising it off the floor a bit, still in a relaxed position. Then take a breath. It should force you to breathe from you abdomen. There's another method for those who don't want to lay on the floor to try that. Sit in a chair with your butt right on the edge, and then sit back with the worst possible posture you can do; a really curved back, not forced. Same thing: breath. For most people this will have the same effect as the laying on the floor method.

 

Some thoughts on breathing from Joe Allard
around 23.50.

And from a series of vids that include breathing mechanism based on Allard's teaching by Harvey Pittel

 

I have been a teacher for many many years and I found that there are so many concepts coming at students all at once that things have to be presented slowly (and repeatedly), pretty much one thing at a time. Everyone is different so one student will get the fingering quick, another will get reading, another rhythm, etc.ect. I found that breathing technique instruction is a necessary with repeated lessons and reminders.