I know people who will die still with college debt............... I remember my daughters college orientation (musical theater).. The speakers first words were something like "I understand you may be wondering what the hell is a theater degree good for anyway??" He assured us that most of any education is learning HOW to learn and that most would never make a living with musical theater. It's like that, only with jazz...

 

I made a living doing musical theater---but I was a sound guy.

 

Get the engineering degree and take as much jazz classes as possible. The main thing is to play with better musicians as much as possible, and practice of course. I teach jazz at the college level BTW. You don't need a jazz degree to play jazz. Jazz degrees can be a way to be immersed in the idiom, especially if you come from somewhere that has no or little jazz to experience.

 

I can tell you what my undergrad music degree consisted of. I'm pretty sure the piece of paper just says something like "Bachelor of the Arts in Music," though according to the department, my focus was "history of jazz and rock music." Anyway, it consisted of learning the history of classical, jazz, and rock music. I had required ear/vocal training, and required keyboard classes. I had required lessons on my primary instrument. I took a couple classes on improvisation. Took an elective on history of the blues. Played in the wind ensemble and jazz ensemble. Took a class or two on teaching music. I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting, but I'm not digging up my old transcripts.

So, all that being said... Like many degrees, you can learn everything on your own time, through libraries/internet/experience. Like many fields, there are people without formal training that are better at it than formally trained musicians, and vice versa. There are people on this forum without any college-level music education that would absolutely crush me in a contest of both music knowledge and playing ability. Going the music school route probably just condenses the time it takes to accumulate that knowledge, albeit at a hefty price.

I don't think I'd ever advise anyone to get a music degree. Or, at the very least, I'd recommend they get another degree at the same time. It's really fun to be immersed in music classes and ensembles, but at the end of the day, it probably won't pay your bills, and you'll still roll into a gig and get put in your place by someone who's never even heard the term "tritone substitution."

 

One of my close friends is a Berklee College of Music grad and he was a fiddle busker at some point as well. He did become a millionaire doing internet E-Commerce and he rarely plays - He never used his music education for music or making a living. His finals was an abstract piece where I played bass on. He could have gotten students that played excellent bass but he asked me because we do share the same vision. But most Boston and Mass colleges have this tradition of excellence and competitiveness (MIT, Harvard, Brow, BU, Berklee, NEC, UM, etc) and many folks that get out of any of these schools tend to succeed because of that culture. I am sure my friend would have been successful if he pursued music to make a living.

 

Having a great inspiring teacher, ear training, band classes, piano lessons, arranging and writing, theory, meeting classmates with the same goals and forming bands with them can boost your learning to another level.
The degree is necessary for some teaching jobs but won't help you on a gig.

 

Having a great inspiring teacher, ear training, band classes, piano lessons, arranging and writing, theory, meeting classmates with the same goals and forming bands with them can boost your learning to another level.

Exactly this. I learned so much more, so much faster than I ever could have on my own. For one, music school gives you the opportunity to study various aspects of music directly with people who are (or at least should be) high level players and experts. So you get to learn directly from them, as opposed to having to figure it out yourself. It also gives you the chance to play with other people and be exposed to their ideas and experiences, and to work together to get better and challenge each other. Of course, you can still do that on your own, but honestly, not many gigs are going to challenge your ability to play new ideas on Giant Steps or play blues in Db minor. So it was helped provide the challenge you need to improve along with the tools to do it.

All that said, none of that gets you gigs or makes you a pro, but it can be a big help on the way. In fact, 2 guys I went to school with are currently playing in the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, so it worked out for them. But I changed careers (although I do still play), so it's certainly not automatic.

 

I think the exposure to great music and the ability to understand why a chord change or scale is great is what I got out of my BS in music ed. When I went to Berklee there were separate classes in writing a pop song or arranging a small horn section. You can get alot on your own but Its valuable to develop contacts in school, play with lots of people and hopefully get help with your instructors to break into a market. I got my corp gig after college by knowing the band director in college. Many good players around but I got the gig cause I knew someone? the way it is.I know a few self trained players if you start talking sub II Vs they get lost in a hurry. Even if you dont' use the info its nice to have been explosed to it in a systematic way K

 

If it’s a place like Berklee, then connections is probably the biggest benefit. A state school etc maybe not so much?

 

The best possible way to become a master of anything is learning one on one with a master but typically this cost $200+ an hour as private lessons. It's very rare someone is willing to literally take you under their wing and teach you all they know Like what Phil Woods did with Grace Kelly so most go to college and take out student loans or if they are lucky their parents could afford to pay their tuition. All three methods of private lessons, apprenticeship and College degree program work to get really really good and maybe even great but those that really make money in the music industry no how to promote and market themselves.

 

Grace Kelly also attended and graduated from Berklee…

 

I think that the OP's question conflates two separate questions:

1. What are the advantages of going to music school, and possibly earning a degree?
2. What are the advantages of learning from teachers/mentors (vs. learning on your own)?

Many great jazz musicians have done well without (1) above, however, many fewer have done so without (2).

The advantage of school, as others have mentioned, is the connections you make and the immersive nature of the environment (e.g., imagine learning a foreign language from a book vs. from immersion in a society that speaks it). The degree itself is largely immaterial.

However, a teacher (or teachers) is considerably more important. In music (as in any field, really), having teachers helps you identify and address gaps in knowledge, weak skills, and develop efficient training techniques. You may think you can do this all yourself, but people are notoriously bad at assessing their own abilities.

 

However, a teacher (or teachers) is considerably more important. In music (as in any field, really), having teachers helps you identify and address gaps in knowledge, weak skills, and develop efficient training techniques. You may think you can do this all yourself, but people are notoriously bad at assessing their own abilities.

This is the kind of thing I don’t like about jazz. They don’t flunk people out if they suck.
‘They just take their money and push them on through.
I had a friend at a local university who ask me to go through 9 students there to see what I thought of them. They all wanted to put on those play along records and skate through them. I don’t know what they were teaching them.

 

At University we also had business management classes and it was possible to tack on a teaching or a business degree.
It allows you to not just improve your chops but grow as a musician, to meet and build alliances with diverse musicians and singers not just Jazz musicians.
I have a few university friends who play Jazz for a living, a few are in symphonies others work in music sound production, sales and not just in music stores but corporate, instrument repair, teach, write and do film scores, promotions and bookings and they are scattered all across the continent. Knowing someone who lives in LA, NY, Nashville or Toronto to call or get a call for a gig helps enormously.
Networking and having options.

 

I wanted to take music classes in college while working on a microbiology degree. They wouldn’t allow non-music majors to take classes. Maybe that’s changed since the 1970s. I would have liked to have learned some theory.

 

Was the college concerned that the classes would be too full and therefore wanted to reserve them for music majors only?

 

My opinion after nearly 40 years of performing and a Bachelor's in Music Performance 1982 that University study challenged me in ways that I would not have discovered myself especially music theory and composition. After college I went in the Navy Fleet Bands and played music until I retired at 48. Do people I now play with care if I have a degree, No they do not! They care that I can do the job I promised them I could do.

 

I never went to school for music. I went to a private college for visual art. I have to say it was pretty intensive. We were immersed in design, drawing, painting, printmaking, sculpture, art history, etc.

I always thought music school was probably like that. Total immersion in music. Eat, drink, and sleep music. And drugs, sex and rock n roll.

 

I went to a lot of music schools, but never graduated because I never went to the history, English and science classes. I liked the immersive atmosphere, but I have to say I learned more about music by playing. But I agree about the connections part, I still have friends / colleagues I met in school. And I’m old…

 

I had a daughter do performing arts for her grad studies. Agree with what has been observe above. Those who have had more success beyond cruises were the very few who either had some contacts, were chosen by a tutor, or who found ways to market and promote themselves. But mostly it was about contacts. Ten years later she notices how some of those felt to be the most talented (who I recall seeing perform many years ago) ended up doing very little and even retrained to do something else, some giving up.

My son did fine art but self taught computer programming for graphics editing at the same time and now has a well paid job in that. But he loved his degree. Was amazing to see how happy he was and full of ideas and being creative. Again, only one or two managed to stay doing art, through connections.

I when I hear people who did jazz at music schools, and had all that time to just do that, I just wish I could do that now. Must be amazing experience.

 

I learned to read music at school (a chance because in France, learning music at school is not taught very much, if at all)
I started to learn the sax self taught with books (eg: "Patterns for Jazz").
I learned a lot and a lot of bad habits.
After a few years of intensive self-taught practice,
I felt the need to organize my knowledge:
I took drums and harmony lessons with private teachers that I chose based on their musical style ...
and it is by associating these learnings and group practice (from duo to big band) and by playing jazz blues and Métis music that I think I have developed my style and my sound...

 

Crazy huh

 

There is a lot of good info in this thread. A few other things to consider: There is a bit of a difference between what degrees are offered (BM vs BA). A BM will be more music intensive than an "Bachelor of Arts" degree. I got a "Bachelor of Music" degree but with a concentration in music education. I graduated with a teaching certificate that allowed me to have a good career.

Unless you live near a major metropolitan area, it will be very difficult to find great teacher/mentor or find jam sessions and people to play with. College is a place to meet like minded players and a place you can learn together. Funny fact, the best sax player at my college (when I was there) was not a music major! It all depends on what you want to do. I would think very long on getting an expensive "jazz" degree without some other training (ed, business, audio, etc) and yes, some schools will absolutely let you graduate without learning to play!

 

To answer OP’s two part question, (1) when you study jazz in college, you play in ensembles (typically in the jazz context but I also played in wind ensembles), take lessons, take theory, history, aural skills, and other music based classes, etc…(2) having a jazz degree doesn’t probably mean much per se, but like others have said here, the benefits come from total immersion/commitment, being forced to do things outside of your comfort zone for a grade, contact development, and being around like minded people who share similar goals and a desire to get better. I think it is definitely possible to teach yourself but it will be a slower, less focused process. But, all of the quality online content out there can help if you are committed.

Looking back (I left my undergrad jazz program), I wish I majored in composition or theory. There are plenty of great players in the world, trained and untrained. But there are seemingly far fewer great writers and content generators.

 

In 1969 I picked up a guitar and by pure serendipity found an outstanding teacher. He taught me many things but most importantly, he taught me the beauty of harmony AND how to dig deep on my own and learn. This started my lifelong practce of challenging myself and a daily routine of inventing exercises to practice. Back then there was lots of playing with "records".. Then bands with peers. Don't we all (those of an age) wish we had todays resources back then. After returning to the sax 4 years ago I found fresh life in revisiting my old practice routines though now with 50+ years of gigs, studio work and teaching. Back when I was 18, the only post high school music schooling I had was a few community college courses though the harmony class I took was led by the second chair pianist with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.... :O

 

For some reason I never really got a clear answer from them. It seemed like for most part they have done exactly what I was doing, so learn to play trough changes better, arrange, transcribe. Maybe with more focus on sight reading and transcribing, (but that’s due to my choice of focusing on something else). Some history classes, which most of them were skipping, etc. Except, of course they had way more time to practice during the day, but that by itself isn’t thanks to being in school, but rather having no other commitments.

So, I wanted to ask someone who went to jazz school / college, what is it he was doing there, and how is it different to being self-taught (in other words, what are benefits of having a teacher once you are comfortable with the fundamentals of getting around the horn and literacy, which is a prerequisite of getting into the school anyway), especially in the age of internet and unlimited learning resources? And for those who live in states, is it actually worth the crazy money it seems to cost? As compared to just practicing yourself and going to jams gigs etc. Is it a significant difference when looking for job in show band etc, or are those just audition based anyway?

Thanks,

I think there are two questions here. Being self taught vs taving a teacher, and attending music college vs not attending.

Once you get to a certain level, I agree having a teacher isn't necessary BUT personally I still take lessons albeit sporadically (a handful a year). I like having personalised input from someone I admire, and picking their brains. It also helps keep me motivated. A lot of great players I know will organise lessons when players they like are in town.

In terms of "what do you get from music college"?

I think you can get very close to a music college experience by having private lessons, playing jam session and organsing plays with people, and practicing a lot. Music college just makes it easier - you naturally build a network, and there so many great playing opportunities (small group, big band, load of different styles etc.). At music college you have a pool of great players, all trying to learn, with great facilities, and lots of time. Once you leave, everyone is gigging, working and teaching without access to practice rooms/instruments etc.

I went to music college but also, like you, have a degree in a non-music subject - the truth is I probably could have used online lecture notes, textbooks, watched youtube, used internet forums etc. and taught myself (my non music degree). But it would have been so much harder. I needed the input of friends, the pressure of exams, the fact I was studying a degree to justify my time. I think it's a similar story with music.

 

It’s the atmosphere, the mindset you develop by being in that environment. Plus the friendships you make for a lifetime.

 

It’s the atmosphere, the mindset you develop by being in that environment.

From what I observed and hear from the sidelines, there is intense competition to getting into classical ensembles, symphony orchestras in particular, where it's all about how one does in audition. In a music school/conservatory this would carry over to wind ensembles and the "A" big bands.

Aside from competing for the big band chairs, I have an impression it's a bit different in the jazz world where more frequently struggling new players tend to work together. (Or is this also a thing of the past?) But jazz schools may bring together a critical mass of jazz players who can get together and practice, figure out what Chris Potter and Kenny Garrett etc are doing, live and breathe jazz 20 hrs a day.

I doubt Herbie Hancock would hire a new sax player based on his/her academic credentials, or even give that any weight in his decision.

 

The close connection to all the young up and coming players in college is surely vital to making a living in jazz. Our old family friend was Frank Sinatras (Sr. and Jr.) musical cotractor. This job requires knowing the best in the biz and what their capabilities are...... Here.... https://news.medill.northwestern.ed....edu/chicago/from-south-side-to-sinatra-mike-smith-still-embodies-chicago-jazz/

 

I have read liner notes and bios of recording jazz musicians who first got hired out of Berklee by band leaders. I can't say if that still frequently happens. Anyone?