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Vito Tenor Sax designed & owned by Eddie Miller

9.6K views 63 replies 22 participants last post by  turf3  
#1 ·
I am trying to pin down the yr that my Vito Tenor Sax, which was designed and built by Eddie Miller. During the era of 1930-Late 50’s, Vito was Notorious for keeping production #’s away and hidden from the competition.

Also dating the sax, during the above era, musicians had their names engraved on their personal instruments.

I have several questions out for the information in the sax world. This sax holds the history of Big Band and Jazz Band history. Eddie was Inducted into the Big Band and Jazz Band Hall Of Fame. It is going into his display at the Hall Of Fame when I stop playing and/or something happens to me.

Serial number “001190”.
 

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#2 · (Edited)
There are few things that aren’t clear to me

What do you mean by “ Designed and built BY Eddie Miller” is this not a standard Vito model that was simply engraved with his name? I don’t think he “ designed” this saxophone. He had his name engraved on it.

Also why would Vito Pascucci (or Vito as company) keep production numbers secret? I think they were, as all brands, meant for internal use, it is only much later that people started trying to date things from the past, but as long as they were used the SN were exclusively used for identification purposes the law of many countries requiring numbers to be put on expensive object AND the dealers needing a system to know whether a saxophone which was under guarantee was the one specifically sold by them once guarantee service or replacement was required.

In any case the best site which listed most vito’s serial Number was Kim Slava Dr.Sax site (no longer active) but the SN are to be founding other places , among others this


I don’t fin SN starting with 00 but I am in no doubt that this was a Vito Tenor like many others only built for your forebear who used many other saxophones in his life.
 
#12 ·
@silver-sax is 100% correct...this WAS built by Yamaha and was the first iteration of Vito/Yama saxes to hit the US market.

I have refurbed a few of these. I had always believed them to be a 'bridge' model...leftover bodies from Kenosha outfitted with some Yamaha keywork and details. Primarily because of the left-side bell keys and traditional table design.

I started a thread on this around a year and a half ago, am not gonna bother looking for it now.

Suffice it to say...one day I had a Vito/YTS-21 in here I was refurbing and HAD to get OUT the door fast, and I accidentally snapped the upper stack A armature off of the key. I don't silver solder and my guy who does was out of town for a week, so just for the hell of it, in desperation, I pulled out THIS model horn (the subject of this thread) which was sitting in a closet, and lo and behold the A key was a perfect fit. Then I examined the upper and lower stack keys and indeed, they were 90% matching a YTS 21 specification. Last, I measured the body tubes of both, and indeed the tube dimensions of this left-side bellkey Vito was the same as that of a 21.

I echo others' sentiments....this is a mid 70's horn, Yamaha-built...and really of very little value. It was NOT 'designed' (at least not that I can see in the pics, which show a standard one of these models just with a name engraved on the bell) by Eddie, it appears to be a stock design.

These have very LITTLE market value because people don't know what they are due to the monkey wrench details of the bell and table. They come up on eFlay a few times a year, as project horns they usually sell for $200 tops, whereas a Vito 21 or 23 will fetch $300-500 as a project Tenor.
 
#40 ·
Correct.
Beaugnier was the first subcontractor of Vito, and Beaugnier did not begin sax production (for Vito or anyone else) until around or after WWII, I believe....
(this isn't a Beaugnier, clearly)

emilien Beaugnier started the company as a parts supplier in early 1920s and started making saxophones under their name and stencils in the late 1920s. there are many French brands that used Beaugnier as Their supplier
 
#14 ·
Sorry @Eddie Miller, as others have said, this is a cheap student horn from the 60s/70s (worth $300-ish today). Eddie would never have actually owned or played an instrument like this himself and couldn't possibly have played it in the 30s/40s/50s. Enjoy the horn for what it is, but it's not a valuable historical artifact.
 
#15 ·
well, he may have owned , given (?) , it among many other ones, who knows...

Some time ago there was someone, I remember, that wanted to sell an instrument that was given just before his date to a famous player (can’t remember who) but at the end of the day the guy never really played it, just owned it.
 
#16 ·
...yeah, true - might have been his back-up, although without visual evidence of this (a photo of him PLAYING it or at least holding it).....or other concrete provenance....even THAT claim would have ZERO resonance in any attempt to sell the horn.

(not necessarily doubting you, OP, just saying that for you to make a bona-fide claim of this horn being his which would be considered reasonable in the sax player/sax collector world, there needs to be more 'proof' than just what you have communicated to us).
 
#17 ·
Here's a link to the archive.org version of Kim Slava (Dr Sax)'s table of different kinds of Vito saxes: Vito Serial Numbers

There are some saxes similar to this one at the very beginning of his Table 1b, Vito saxophones mostly marked made in Japan and likely either made by Yamaha or with a strong Yamaha influence. The very first few include some left side bell keys.

I am not an expert on Vitos and have not seen nearly as many as some of you. One interesting fact you can see on the OP's sax and the other ones in Dr Sax's table 1b is that (I think) the tone holes for left and right stacks are offset, Balanced-Action style. This is normal for Yamahas, like JayeLID said about the matching YAS-21 body, but I think not for the earlier Beaugnier and Kenosha Vitos.
 
#23 ·
it may be that it was lacquered over the engraving, if this was a factory job it is perfectly possible but I think that this is rather immaterial for OP whose purpose is to play this until he roams this earth and then to leave this to a museum. I would , if I were him, first, now, enquire whether the museum wants it.

They may or may not, all depends on how much space do they have to dedicate to Mr. Eddie Miller

He is certainly a notable player but , with respect, there have to be thousands in the USA only of such notable players

Here is an interview with him


the discography
 
#24 ·
OP is probably long gone ... and who could blame him? Came to sax on the web with questions about an interesting (which does not necessarily equal "commercially valuable") saxophone and a story that seemed likely connected to family history and pride in a figure from the golden age of saxophone's role in popular music. Seemed a logical place to ask his questions, maybe with some expectation of respect and shared curiosity.

Got clobbered.

You might listen to the interview. If the Eddie Miller who posted is the son or grandson of the Eddie Miller interviewed, he is the namesake of someone who played with Jack Teagarden, Pete Fountain, among other notable players, was a first-line studio musician... a very long and rich career, and judged by the interview, a personable, modest guy. If he had been in my family, I'd be pretty proud of the instrument and of the connection. Who knows, I might even have come to understand that the name engraved might imply a role in the design.
 
#26 ·
I tried to show respect for the player as well as for the poster, however , this horn ( and I had a look around the many pictures) is never shown on any pictures of Eddie Miller, who was certainly a very notable player, with a place in history but this doesn’t make a horn with his name on it anything other than what it is unless it is for the family.

I advised OP to FIRST enquire by the museum ( Big Band Jazz Hall of Fame) where he seeks a place for this horn.

Incidentally I looked long and hard to find the Big Band Jazz Hall of Fame and I didn’t really find it unless he meant something that is no longer operating



apparently they stopped in 2004
 
#32 · (Edited)
Check out, at the end of this blog about Eddie Miller (and including a book of his licks!), a response by Colleen, who perhaps is the OP? I was wrong about the family connection ... the connection was through the horn itself, which she owned, sold, and found again and repurchased. And, although she is no doubt mistaken in this entry about details regarding the horn, it seems that she tried (perhaps is still trying) to do her research. Who knows, perhaps she found the photo posted by pontius, which did label the horn Miller was playing as a Vito, and assumed it was her horn. (Not everyone that owns a horn catches the distinguishing characteristics of particular models.) She also apparently found information that Miller worked as a consultant for Vito, and a report that she considered evidence her horn had been owned by Miller.


Here's the archived website of the Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame. From what I can find out, it was never a "brick and mortar" museum, but rather an element of a nonprofit that benefited music education and that promoted a band of swing-era old timers. Another point of confusion by the OP, but, an understandable misunderstanding, and a nice sentiment that she(?) wanted her horn to be part of a display honoring Miller.

 
#34 ·
Check out, at the end of this blog about Eddie Miller (and including a book of his licks!), a response by Colleen, who perhaps is the OP? I was wrong about the family connection ... the connection was through the horn itself, which she owned, sold, and found again and repurchased. And, although she is no doubt mistaken in this entry about details regarding the horn, it seems that she tried (perhaps is still trying) to do her research. Who knows, perhaps she found the photo posted by pontius, which did label the horn Miller was playing as a Vito, and assumed it was her horn. (Not everyone that owns a horn catches the distinguishing characteristics of particular models.) She also apparently found information that Miller worked as a consultant for Vito, and a report that she considered evidence her horn had been owned by Miller.


Here's the archived website of the Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame. From what I can find out, it was never a "brick and mortar" museum, but rather an element of a nonprofit that benefited music education and that promoted a band of swing-era old timers. Another point of confusion by the OP, but, an understandable misunderstanding, and a nice sentiment that she(?) wanted her horn to be part of a display honoring Miller.

Very cool story!
 
#36 · (Edited)
as mentioned above the the Big band jazz Hallo fame shut in 2004. I there never was a brick and mortar museum , I don’t know what they would have done with a saxophone.

this picture found here SAYS it depicts Eddie Miller with his Vito But there is NO engraving on the bell and I am not even so sure it is a vito, it is completely wrong because it mentions a date between 1941 to 1945 when no Vito’s existed

 
#38 ·
#37 · (Edited)
I'll make one final comment. I've found nothing to suggest that Eddie Miller ever regularly played a Vito. The link below to a Billboard story from 1981 suggests that Miller was still then playing a Selmer he acquired in 1938.

The OP's post, and the blog response, both contain a number of errors that technicians or historians of saxophones would recognize: dates for Vito, association of Vito with Elkhardt (v. Kenosa), the reliability of the caption of the UMKC photo, the role of a player like Miller in saxophone design, and etc. etc. There seems to be a misunderstanding about what the Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame was, and a lack of awareness that the organization seems to no longer be functioning. One can see these as wrongheaded errors to be corrected, and go about bluntly correcting them.

But, there's another way to see this. A person builds a relationship with a saxophone that has "Eddie Miller" engraved on the bell. (I first thought this was about family, but some digging proved I was wrong.) After selling the instrument, that person returns to playing, finds the instrument, and is led to begin some research on Eddie Miller and the horn. The Wiki entry for Miller mentions that he was inducted into the Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame; the person assumes it is a physical place. The setup material for the NAMM site interview posted by Milandro mentions that Miller was recruited as a consultant by Selmer in Elkhardt. The person, probably with little knowledge of which saxophone manufacturer was where, mixes up Vito and Selmer. (crime of crimes --and maybe he did consult with Vito). As mentioned in the blog response, she makes contact with someone who interviewed Miller and that person suggests that Miller did own her Vito. (No way for me to confirm this without a lot of work, but, could be true.) The owner through research is confirmed in her sense of the importance of Miller and the significance of the horn, and wants to know more, and posts on Sax on the Web. How to respond?

This all connects with two professional concerns of mine. I'm trained and have worked as an oral historian, interviewing working people about their lives and participation in significant historical events such as strikes or political campaigns. The point of such work is not to unearth facts (although sometimes leads emerge that can be documented), but to investigate how people reshape and re-interpret their histories over the course of their lives. It seems rather obvious that the interviewer's job is not to correct the person being interviewed (unless you want the door slammed in your face and all the neighbors alerted that you're a jerk), but to try to understand why the story is being told in the way it is being told. This SOW exchange is not the same situation, of course, but it seemed clear from the first post that the OP was not a saxophone historian, but someone with a connection to this instrument looking for more information. You could respond by saying: you've got your facts wrong. Or, you could ask: how did this person come to understand the story in this way? (I guess arguing for the second is "drama." Seems to me much more like common sense, or maybe, common courtesy. YMMV)

Secondly, I teach writing, and, although I don't agree with everything Steven Pinker says, I do agree with his argument that a major problem in communication is "the curse of knowledge:" the difficulty of understanding that other people do not necessarily have the knowledge and understanding that we have. To assume that they do when they don't is to guarantee miscommunication. (Or, as Pinker puts it, that good people will create bad writing, because they don't stop to consider that the jargon and disciplinary logic they are using may have no meaning to their readers.) Again, it seemed clear the OP was not hip to technical and historical discussions of the saxophone: it was a first post.
Edit: Realized I committed the very act I was critiquing. Steven Pinker is a psychologist at Harvard. He wrote a fairly recent book about writing called "The Sense of Style," which draws on his work on the relationship between linguistics and how the mind organizes information.

I hope the OP will come back. I'd love to learn more about her research, and particularly what she found out about the direct connection between Eddie Miller and her horn. The whole thing is a great story. (Not to mention that it led me to a whole book of swing-era tenor licks.)