My thought is a used late model Selmer Paris is gonna be around $3000. A used Taiwanese horn -- about $700.

There just isnt 4x the difference in 'performance' to justify the expense for a student.

 

Yes, I am with hgiles. I have a soprano that is what you would refer to as "junk" and it is a great sax. There is still, IMHO, way too much difference in the price point to consider the Selmers (or at least consider them to be a better value as the OP states). I really do not find the Selmer Series III to be superior and have played a few. Some may like the feel of them and also love the fact that it is a "grand old name in saxes" but at four times the price in the used market, it seems to be still quite a stretch.

 

Selmers remain more expensive than "junk" horns. They are probably better just now. But: the used Selmer you buy today will be as good in 20 years, while the "junkie"....

 

This is exactly the point. A Selmer is built to last a 100 years. Also, it will preserve most of its market value.

 

I believe Black Obelisk is comparing used Selmers to new Taiwan horns and his point is you can get a used Selmer in good condition for the price of a new Taiwan horn.

 

Again, there is that Selmer "attitude" towards Taiwanese instruments! IF everything were equal (including the price) I wouldn't even consider anything else but the Selmers (hey, I'm a Selmer snob as well!) Unfortunately, things are not equal. The Taiwanese saxes are becoming scarily good! Honestly, some of them may be better than the Selmers still being produced (that's as far as I will go! Like I said, Selmer snob.) What definitely is true is that the Taiwanese saxes are having to catch up with their "damage control" of their reputations! The "cheap junk" is still on the market (thank you China) so the reputation for "less than stellar quality" still hangs around like a foul odor from something burned on the stove the night before. This accounts for some of the pricing discrepancy. This, also, accounts for some really incredible deals on the new Taiwanese saxes that are definitely not junk! $700 vs $3000..... when put that way, the better deal isn't necessarily the Selmer (then again, if the Selmer "sings" to you, maybe it is!)

 

equake is right. My post is about buying a used, newer model Selmer vs. the price of a NEW Taiwanese horn.

 

Its not exactly comparing like to like to compare new anything to used anything is it? If you are in the market for a new horn of any type, surely its self evident that you are likely going to get better value looking at a second hand version of the same thing.

Really isnt the real situation going to be more like "I have $3k to spend on a horn, should I buy a new <insert taiwanese brand name here>, a used late model Selmer, or a used <insert taiwanese brand name here> and pocket the spare $1500"

And thats not even getting into the many many other alternative way to spend $3k and come out of it with a good horn...

In the long run I think a used Selmer will hold much of their value, it remains to be seen how the others do.

 

er, I meant the price of New Taiwanese "junk" i.e. Cannonbal, Mauriat & all the other "splat" horns out there

 

Frankly the 2 brands you just mentioned here are considered junk by nobody (or nearly so) nowadays. Even if you leave out the official endorsers who might be paid to do so, there are non-endorsing pro players like Pete Thomas and well-known woodwind repair professional like Stephen Howard who have just good words about those (without saying that they must necessarily switch from their favourite gear).

The used price of either is likely 1500$+, while a used Selmer in comparable shape is twice as much at least (more for a Reference). So if price is in the picture I'd advise the advanced student you mention to consider one of those taiwanese brands, in particular in the used market (this alone got to be the best advise...).
Advising them that Selmer would be your pick would be a fair advise, while not considering those brands because they are junk would be a very biased advise.

 

Funny and loaded way of starting a "I think Taiwanese horns are junk" thread.

If you think Taiwanese horns like Cannonball, Mauriat and others are junk, why in the world would you recommend them at all? Why even compare or ask for "thoughts"? You are obviously biased towards what you believe to be "non-junk" and many believe to be "overpriced junk".

 

Well it seems clear you should shell out your hard earned cash to support Selmer rather than considering anything else. I shall still be content to "splat" away... Thanks for clarifying your "position". I thought you were actually asking for a comparison rather ranting about how poor you are already convinced all the other saxes are.

 

OK, I'll play - I've owned and played Selmers for 30+ years or so.

Buy a used horn in top mechanical condition - regardless of marque. Buy a new Selmer and sell it - lose thousands of dollars; buy a new Taiwanese horn and sell it - lose hundreds of dollars.

I bought my last Selmer at used prices and sold it for a profit after several years of use - I now play Borgani. I no longer consider Selmer to be the only "best" tenor on the market. Life is good for tenor players these days, you don't have to drive a beater car just to afford a good horn.

 

Our local music store in Wichita sells Cannonball, Yamaha and Selmer saxes but after I enquired about trying some of the new Selmers, I was told that they only get them in when someone orders one(!) The salesman confided to me that he hasn't seen a new Selmer in quite some time (well...duh!! I wouldn't shell out $6-7000 for a new saxophone, sight unseen, no matter who's name is on it!) Now, this store is probably one of the two most recognizable and reputable stores in Kansas. Cannonball is their "featured" line so they must be doing something right!

 

The same thing is going on with Sam Ash. They used to be known for stocking the top of the line horns in some of the "big four".

They had both Selmer Reference horns along with Serie II's and III's plus Yamaha 82 Z's and 62 II's.

The profit margin was slim so....

Then they began to push Cannonball( when I first heard that name I thought of a certain alto sax player. Shrewd subtle marketing, I don't care what they say. ) and Conn-Selmer's Asian brands La Vie and La Voix.

Then Conn-Selmer( no connection to Selmer Paris except for distribution rights) discontinued the Taiwan made La Vie and pushed the Chinese made La Voix.

And when they figured that was giving players too much value they started emphasizing their store brand, Jean Baptiste which sounds French but is made in China.

One day when I walked in the store they told me I just missed Kenny G promoting his brand ( Aw shucks ). I'm surprised the " Kardashian " hasn't come out. ( One of the words spell checker suggested for Kimi's last name was Balderdash.)

Now there's a name for a saxophone.

The new flavor is P. Mauriat which sounds French and now costs almost as much as a new Selmer. It's amazing that if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it. I'm talking about Paris stamped on their horns and the French bandleader's name.. Which means if you look at the horn while squinting your eyes you can say to yourself " By golly this is a French made horn. Wait a minute hold the phone , It's better ! "

So now you're shelling out over four grand for the Houli horn because of deception and outright prevarication by not stamping the country of origin on the horn.

Over all the Yamahas, Selmers and Yanagisawas are looking pretty good to me if the Taiwan horns cost just as much. I'll even throw in the Keilwerth.

As for buying a horn sight unseen I wouldn't either but in some stores you can put down 10 per cent and if you don't like the horn I guess they deduct the restocking fee from that.

Or just travel to a city where they stock the horns and Always try before you buy.

 

Seen the latest WWBW catalog? "Intermediate" ROC horns are now around $2000, "Pro" models are $3000-4000!!!
I've been looking for a new alto for around $1000, and decided that it makes more sense to pay a bit more for a used Yani than to get any ROC horn.
By the way, where can you get a used Mauriat (or other 'better' Taiwan horns) for $700 or even $1200???

Last 100 years? Maybe, but in 100 years (hell, 10 years), who is going to know whether a particular model number of one of these new off-brand horns is a student or pro model?

 

By the way, where can you get a used Mauriat (or other 'better' Taiwan horns) for $700 or even $1200???

The old top of the Antigua Winds line often sell at that $700 range., Jupiters top of the line horns too. Ive seen the occasional Canonball around there too, maybe a tad more. $1200 gets you into Barone territory. Not so much Mauriats though. How much non marketing BS related difference is there between all these? Your guess is as good as mine, but once you repad one and put some effort into setup, Im guessing not so much.

My personal choice in that price range remains the German B&S horns/ stencils, but I played an Antigua 520 alto for about 5 years and it never once needed any work done. It had a few rough edges, and was not what i would call a true pro horn, but in terms of playability and reliability there was nothing to complain about.

 

Yes, I'm being provocative. I wanted to start a popular thread. Its working.

I think the asian horns are decent, but they have that something in the tone, thats just "not right" to me. A splatty thing.

I've been following the prices of used newer Selmers on ebay & it seems, for under $4K, mostly $3500, you can get a used one, in great shape. I think this is a far better investment than a $2500-4000 dollar Taiwan horn.

I know most of the "cats" that endorse all those asian made horns in NYC....guess what, maybe a tiny percentage of them really play them, exclusively. Most have Selmers, or old Kings, Conns or Yani's as their main axe & use the Taiwan horn as their spare or "beater" horn.

Plus, there's not alot of interest in jazz these days. It costs money to promote yourself & buy ads in magazines. If you are a younger player, how do you get your face around? In magazines & web banners on SOTW???
Endorse an Asian horn.

 

I think if I looked I could find a used Selmer Paris, Yamaha 82 Z/ 875 or Yanagisawa for under $3000 in this economy in Los Angeles.

 

It's simple. If you want a great deal on a Selmer, look for a used one in decent shape. Same goes for any horn from Taiwan.

 

I think we're all in agreement. NEW Taiwanese horns don't present much value. I honestly don't know how they stay in business at $4000 a pop. I can only conclude that the endorsements and heavy advertising is how they are making the sales possible.

Mauriats ($4000) can be great playing horns, but based on my economic vantage point I just don't see a justification for the cost.

 

New french, german, japanese or italian horns also dont present much value either... Let some other mug eat the depreciation.

 

When I buy an item to use to serve a specific function I am generally pragmatic. I will buy what gets me from point A to point B in the most efficient overall manner.

That being said. When I buy a horn I buy what I want. It is not simply a tool to make sound or an item to serve a specific function. It is something I will own, value, and hope to become an extension of my internal voice.

Certainly money is an object but I am not looking for the cheapest means to an end.

If this is all a horn is to you then by all means seek out the least expensive model that can get the job done.

Personally, I want something that will grow with me. When I buy it I hope that it is more capable than myself when it comes to what it has to deliver.

Insurance costs.

 

I have two Barone horns that are NOT junk. Even though I've owned two Selmer tenors (MkVI and MkVII) and 3 Selmer clarinets, I've never bought a horn for its investment value.

It would irritate me to have good money tied up in something I need but would have to sell to get the money back again. My preference is to have as little money tied up as possible in my instruments as long as they do the job and do it well.

I'm old enough to remember when Yamahas received this kind of dissing!

 

I'm old enough to remember when Yamahas received this kind of dissing!

A very good point Pat.

I have Selmers because at one point, not so very long ago, the only serious choice was one of the 'big four' and I chose Selmer (well OK, I have a YSS 62, but the others are Selmers). But I have to say that if I was starting out now I might well go for a Mauriat or similar. The thing that really irritates me about Mauriats though is their false pretension of being French. Perhaps the P. stands for pretend?

 

well, yes, another thread on the great ( French, American, German.......dare I say, Italian ) horns of the past as opposed to the not-anymore-so-newcomers from Taiwan. Of course comparing a second hand sax to a new one of the most expensive of the Taiwanese made saxophones is rather unfair.

Anyway the medium segment of the market is now this one, whether you like it or not. In my part of the world though a second hand Selmer say a SA 80 II loses typically 30% (minimum) of its value when sold second hand while one of the more expensive Taiwanese (not many on the second hand market) is around 50% cheaper. Same as what an Italian (Borgani or Rampone) or a German (Keilwerth) , Japanese horns tend to keep as much value as Selmer and loose about 30%.

 

I think the comparison is very fair. A mint condition horn from the " big four " is better than any Taiwan offering in my opinion. By the way the horns mentioned are not of the past or passé. Nor did anyone mention American horns.

As for those horns losing their value I don't agree at all and I think the argument is disingenuous.

I bought a Serie II new 7 years ago and they are now selling used for more than what I paid for it.

Now back to the depreciation issue. Gold is at an all time high but if you buy gold jewelry and resell it the next week it will be worth less than what you paid for it. If you purchase a new BMW 528i and drive it around the block it's now a used car and has to be resold for much less. But it hasn't lost it's intrinsic value which has to be measured over time.

The same with horns , better actually. A quality Selmer Paris ( cough, Selmer bias) increases in value over time .

Can you say the same for Taiwan horns? I don't think so.

Educate me where the comparison is unfair.

 

The Mauriets will probably go the way of the Medusas and other so-so horns, peak in price and fall to a bargain basement "bar" horn status.
I still think the older Yanagisawa are the best bang for your buck right now. In no way or form a Selmer, but serviceable.

 

I also thought the original question was perfectly clear and basically non-prejudicial: eg a similarly priced used Ser.III vs a new Mauriat. The word "junk" was in scare quotes, which I take to mean that its meaning is being put in question. Also, while it is true that a used Taiwanese horn is a very inexpensive option, that just wasn't what the OP was asking about.

My thoughts?

FWIW: I try to avoid GAS as much as possible, but I've heard from a number of reliable (at least to me) folks that the Series III tenor is an absolutely fantastic horn; if I were on the hunt for a modern horn, a good deal on a used one would definitely be on my list. I also think that a used Series III should rate pretty high on a lot of folks' "buy the best horn you can afford" scale. One factor to add in would be whatever value the seller is adding: if I had to choose between a PM set up by Matt Stohrer vs a Ser III from some guy on Ebay, I'd probably go for the PM.

FWIW: carbon footprint on any used horn = zero...if that's part of your definition of value.

 

Ok I took up your challenge:

eBay:

Selmer Reference 54 Tenor Saxophone - Matte finish. Big...
Buy It Now
or Best Offer
$3,995.00
Time left:1d 16h 21m


SELMER REFERENCE 54 TENOR SAXOPHONE
0 Bids
$4,000.00
Time left:5d 3h 54m

You are inferring that eBay is the be all end all for the market. Too many variables for me to address in this topic, i. e. condition , veracity etc.

Almost every player I know buys their horns where they can hold them, play them etc. I'm not talking about flippers or obsessive horn acquisition types.

Like I said eBay is not a good reference, no pun intended.

Again your argument is disingenuous . In 1972 a new Mark VI was $640 . I'm sure you could have found a used one for less. Again OVER TIME this changed. So your point about the current Selmers' depreciation is a non starter with me. Check back in 30 or 40 years.

In the 1990's I was offered a mint condition Mark VI for $2000 and a Balance Action relac for $900.

Your point about buying the horn used so it will increase more in value is totally off topic and I don't know why you brought it up.

I brought up the issue of known quality horns to emphasize that used Selmer Paris horns are a better value than new Taiwan horns.

Which pertains to the original post.

Of course new horns depreciate as soon as you buy them just like 99 % of anything retail. Totally moot point.

But unlike many other items purchased retail, quality horns retain and increase their value and for the last time. OVER TIME.

 

Ok I took up your challenge:

.

Maybe if you had looked at the COMPLETED listings you might have had more luck finding the current market value

3000,
3500
3383
3000

New Ref 54 at Kesslers. $6500

At no point have I said ebay is the be all and end all, its just a convenient database of actual selling prices at the bottom end of the market as far as this discussion goes.

Your $640 in 1972, adjusted for inflation is $3400 now, so yes VIs have gone up, no one would argue otherwise, but VIs are the exception to the rule.

You said way back in the thread when I pointed out that all new horns depreiciate that there was no depreciation as far as you were concerned on the top brands, and to me that is clearly nonsense. Some may become collectable in time, but the majority dont.

 

The troll is getting full.

 

Point taken.

 

I think that 'antique' finish is the worst possible thing Selmer could do -- and that includes their releasing of the Mark VII.

(I am going for levity...)

 

(I am going for levity...)

Didn't you get the memo? From now on, if you want to make a joke on SotW, you need scientific proof that it is actually funny, and not just something that seems to be funny in some merely subjective way that can't be measured, you know, scientifically...with some kind of meter.

 

I thought everything was made in Asia.

 

I wasn't.

 

lol. Well, if we are what we eat, then we are being refitted bite by bite.