Studying what I can online, I see a historical trend from smaller mouthpiece openings to larger ones. Great players in the 50s often used much smaller tip openings than those preferred by many great players today.

I assume this has to do with the increased volume now required in many settings, but ignoring this one difference, I'm curious about what the pros and cons of small and large tip openings are. What leads a skilled player to choose his tip opening?

Bill, my very first post/thread on SOTW was about this very same question. In my observations it seemed that USA. players in particular played what would be considered very large tip openings a couple of generations ago. The thread caused somewhat of a furore and I was surprised by the reaction.
For now i will not add any comments or theory's but the dominance of amplified rhythm sections seems to have been the deciding factor and it has since been adopted as the norm. The interesting thing in all this though --how many Classical /"straight" players use open facings?- very few if any i bet
Regards BF

 

Bill, my very first post/thread on SOTW was about this very same question. In my observations it seemed that USA. players in particular played what would be considered very large tip openings a couple of generations ago. The thread caused somewhat of a furore and I was surprised by the reaction.
For now i will not add any comments or theory's but the dominance of amplified rhythm sections seems to have been the deciding factor and it has since been adopted as the norm. The interesting thing in all this though --how many Classical /"straight" players use open facings?- very few if any i bet
Regards BF

cough, theories

Interesting topic, I wish to raise an angry, trembling fist at loud bands and bad monitor engineers (after playing a gig the other day where I could hardly hear myself at all, soprano too so I hope my intonation wasn't terrible, oh well, perhaps it was all so loud nobody noticed).

 

Saxes are mic'd too, though. We live in a microphone world and in any good pro situation the sax is going to be just as amplified as the other instruments, whatever that level may be. Some of the best bands have a really quiet stage, but out in the house it's a different story. One of these is Jill Scott's band. A sax-playing colleague of mine toured with her for many years and remarked at how quiet the stage was.

In the end I don't think the tip opening matters all that much to volume. Sometimes I will do a jazz gig on my AL4 if I am feeling like I need to rest my face a bit. The microphone still does the same amount of work. In unmic'd situations it's a different story, but I think that has more to do with how loud some rhythm sections decide to play. If you have your own band and they are sensitive to whether or not you are mic'd, this should be an issue that you practice as a band.

 

Aside from how loud one can play unmiked, are there other reasons for choosing a small or large opening?

 

There are subtle differences in sound timbre and response. Larger tip openings play darker, and tend to even out the sound timbre across the range of the horn.

 

I can usually get a bigger, fuller sound from a bigger tip opening (and by bigger and fuller, I don't necessarily mean louder). I also think it's easier to play espressively, as it allows for easier note bending, etc. Also, I find that the low notes play much easier without jaw adjustment with a bigger tip opening. On the con side, I find that a larger tip opening is harder to control overall. You don't notice it if you're just belting out a tune, but if you try to change your dynamic levels around, or play a meaningful ballad, a smaller tip opening seems to work better (or at least be easier) for me from a control standpoint.

Right now, I'm trying to get used to a smaller tip opening. I'm rediscovering the joys and benefits of the smaller tip, and it's starting to pay off big dividends.

Buck

 

Studying what I can online, I see a historical trend from smaller mouthpiece openings to larger ones. Great players in the 50s often used much smaller tip openings than those preferred by many great players today.

I just don't know how true that is, some of those intraweb resources are not that accurate. I've been able to ask guys that were around from the late 50' on, and from what they've told me it was pretty wide open, as far as who played what size when. It seems like the median was in the 7 to 8 region, link-tenor wise. Would that be considered small (i don't think so), or smaller than the median now? Couldn't say.

 

I'm curious about what the pros and cons of small and large tip openings are. What leads a skilled player to choose his tip opening?

A mouthpiece that produces a nice sound, according to your taste, and has enough volume and projection for the music you find yourself playing, should suffice, regardless of tip opening or reed strength. Recently I'm playing on a 7* tip opening with a 3 1/2 rico royal (practicing on 3's). I rarely ever use a mic and have found this set up to work well in most musical situations I find myself in.

 

Matt,
Why do you practice on 3s?

 

Only my theory.....if a mouthpiece can't be played softly down to low B without subtoning, it is too open...go one size more closed, repeat.....
I generally would say for alto to stay under .078", for tenor .098"....just my opinion.
One of the loudest, most vibrant alto players I ever heard played on a C*, .067".

 

...assuming a well matched reed right?

 

I play a fairly big tipped mouthpiece, but I am not as loud as some of the people that I know that play 4cs.

 

To answer the original question I think that what leads a player to a tip opening is noticing characteristics of a certain brand of mouthpiece and figuring out what sounds the best. For example say you have Brand A piece and Brand B piece. You can trial all sizes of Brand A from 5-10. If you don't like a certain tone quaility of one piece like say a 5 is too harsh and thin sounding you can then move up to say a 7 which would allow you to move more air due to a larger tip which would let your sound mellow out some because you had too much air for the 5 and producing the harsh tone means you were overblowing and putting more air into the piece than it can handle which distorts the tone. This is a very personal thing though because you may want the tone to be harsher based on personal preference. Now if you played Brand B with a different baffle configuration you may want a different opening to match the desired tone that brand A had. What cancells this out though is that we typically can't trial pieces in an entire size range to hear different tonal characteristics. Every player has their comfort zone. It is always different for each player. Just because I play a 10* doesn't mean the guy next to me would feel comfortable playing it and sometimes with more extreme setups like this your average player couldn't play it. It depends on the volume of air your moving and how open of throat you play with. There are just so many variables, Normally anything around a 7* a decent player will be able to get a good sound out of and not have trouble. You just have to experiment and see what works well. I've heard this guy and I'm sure there are others just like him. He could play a selmer ok but then I gave him my S20 to play and he sounded like a beginner he couldn't get a sound out of the thing and then I picked it up and the sound was right there. It's just how different people blow some don't use as much air as others which means different tip openings for everyone. Sorry for the long winded post I still have more to say and I could go on forever but to sum it up just play whatever you want and experiment. Only then will you find what works. We can sit on this forum forever and talk about this or you can just go out their and play and find what works for you thats the key.

Dylan

 

Hi -

One practical advantage of playing larger tip openings, or at least common tip openings which equate to larger openings, is access to decent modern mouthpieces for resale. Take a look thru the MPs for sale posts - it's easy to find MPs in the 7-8* range, but harder to find MPs smaller. The "Mouthpiece Cafe" guys offer two of their three tenor pieces with a tip opening of 7* only. The Tenney pieces seem to be made with tip openings of 7 and 7* only, etc. Regards,

MB

 

Smaller tips usually mean you'll move up a few degrees in reed strength in order to play loud when it's called for. I can play at a high volume on my STM 9 with a #3 Java reed or #3 Legere Studio Cut and if I take that same reed and put it on my 4C and try to push as much air through, the piece just chokes itself shut. But I've heard plenty of good players playing pieces the equivalent of 5's and 6's who have no trouble projecting using harder reeds.

 

Yes, I was assuming correct reed strength.

 

I have played on close tips, medium, open, VERY open, etc. What I find thru my years of trying different setups is that I like well balanced MPCs, and by well balanced I mean reed friendly, responsive, good dynamic range and expressive range MPCs. I play 1.6 mm ballpark tip opening on clarinets, 2.3 mm on sop sax, 2.8 on alto, 3.25 on tenor and 4 mm on bari sax. The shortest facing lenght I use is 19 mm on clarinet. That would be .065 on clari .09 on sop .112 alto .130 on tenor .160 on bari. Reed strenght is LaVoz Med on clari, rico 2.5 on sop gonzalez 1.75 on alto (rico 2.5 equivalent) gonzalez 2 or 2.25 on tenor (rico 3 or 3.5) and rico 3, la voz med or gonzalez 1.75 on bari. The most radical MPC I still use is a 3.7mm tip opening (.150) for my alto, with a facing lenght of 35 mm. I make my own reeds for this one either from scratch or using baritone reeds as "blanks", trim them, shorten them, etc.

 

........... The most radical MPC I still use is a 3.7mm tip opening (.150) for my alto, with a facing lenght of 35 mm. I make my own reeds for this one either from scratch or using baritone reeds as "blanks", trim them, shorten them, etc.

I thought I was off the beaten path having played my Meyer 10M (0.098") on the alto for 25 years (I just switched to an RPC 90R this summer)! What kind of sound that huge tip opening give you, and is that your preferred sound on the alto? Is that your main piece on the alto, or is there some other that you usually prefer to use? Just curious.

 

I'm not at all concerned about volume, as the microphone will compensate for that.

For me, large tip openings (and large chambers) sound darker.

Large tip openings allow for greater range of tones and pitch bend - however, they do require a softer reed.

Currently I'm using a brass Link 9NY and it darkens the once too-bright sound of my gold plated tenor.

Notes

 

I was talking with some guys that I play in a sax quartet with after we had just played a recital. We have noticed that none of us are very loud players, and a lot of high school students can play much louder than us. What we decided is that, regardless of the equipment you choose to use (we all have verry different kinds of setups), working on developing a nice tone tends to limit your achievable volume. As control becomes paramount, volume becomes secondary, and dynamic contrast becomes more about using a "big" sound versus using a "covered" sound. Really great woodwind players also tend to have a much deeper spectrum of dynamics on the soft end of things, but they never get too loud. I have noticed this from going to see the Philadelphia Orchestra pretty regularly over the past four years. Thoughts?

 

I was talking with some guys that I play in a sax quartet with after we had just played a recital. We have noticed that none of us are very loud players, and a lot of high school students can play much louder than us. What we decided is that, regardless of the equipment you choose to use (we all have very different kinds of setups), working on developing a nice tone tends to limit your achievable volume. As control becomes paramount, volume becomes secondary, and dynamic contrast becomes more about using a "big" sound versus using a "covered" sound. Really great woodwind players also tend to have a much deeper spectrum of dynamics on the soft end of things, but they never get too loud. I have noticed this from going to see the Philadelphia Orchestra pretty regularly over the past four years. Thoughts?

I agree 100%, Razzy. My 17 year old son is louder than I am on his C*!

 

Studying what I can online, I see a historical trend from smaller mouthpiece openings to larger ones. Great players in the 50s often used much smaller tip openings than those preferred by many great players today.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. I think a lot of players modified their mpcs back then and opened the tips considerably. At least that's what I've heard. I wasn't there (well I was a young kid, but certainly not aware of what was going on in the sax world).

In any case I've found that the larger tip opening gives a fuller sound, not necessarily louder, and allows for more flexibility. The flexibility may also have something to do with being able to use a slightly softer reed on the larger tips.

 

Razzy,
I see what you're saying, and I find that in my own playing this is true. However, my teacher, David Valdez would probably disagree. He is of the belief that the saxophone sounds the best when you are playing as loud as possible. This is an idea he got from studying with Joe Viola. Also, Charles McPherson, who IMHO is the greatest living alto player, plays louder than any other saxophone I have ever heard. I heard him play alongside Joshua Redman and Mark Turner at the Stanford Jazz Residency this summer, and in comparison their sounds seemed small. Also, having played with him in his combo, I can assure that his horn seemed like it was going to explode at all times from the amount of air he was putting into it. And he plays a medium tip Meyer, with a 3 Java.

 

Razzy,
I see what you're saying, and I find that in my own playing this is true. However, my teacher, David Valdez would probably disagree. He is of the belief that the saxophone sounds the best when you are playing as loud as possible.

yea, its all about style. if you play in a saxophone quartet its super wrong to play loud. I used to feel when i did symphony gigs on tenor sax it was important for the tenor saxophone to seen but not heard. however in other settings its super wrong NOT to play really loud like if you have to hold the tenor line in a funk band or wall of sound salsa section and you try to do it with a selmer c* you will get looked at funny and be as out of place as a sax quartett player on a dukoff D9. and as psarge has observed some of the greatest saxophone players in some jazz type styles play suprsingly loud when you stand next to them almost mind blowingly loud but its still quite nuanced and beautiful. The same can be said of some great singers.

add to this the mix even among classical players of the various schools regarding different tension levels (french,american,german,italian) whatever.

then add the different cultural differences about just the general volume and the way people express themselves (reserved and stuffy or unrestrained)

think juniour walker and the culture he is from and the volume he played compared to someone playing in a french style chamber quartet.

its like jimmy hendrix vs jesus silva
the only thing the two have in common is the instrument is called a guitar. beyond that there is nothing the same.

 

Am I missing something here? What does high school marching band have to do with the question: Aside from volume, what are the pros & cons of a large mpc tip opening? Where does marching band enter into it???

 

See post #29.
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=1013230&postcount=29

 

It would appear to me the whole concept of playing loud is backed by large tip openings. I'm talkin' .115 to .120 (Guardala King/RnB for example). Such players want to be heard above the heavy rock equipment.


Not to knock the idea of yester generations playing small tip openings. Ben Webster played Links with tip openings of .120-125!

 

I play large tip openings on both of my saxes (8 and 8*-ish). I am relatively quiet on tenor. I attribute this to leaks, though.

 

The implication seems to be that large tips are required for volume.
Surely, unless you can also whisper the low notes then either the tip is too large or the reed is too heavy for you...or both.
I tend to use a 115 tip combined with a light reed; this is the combination which suits me.
In my view, it is a mistake to be drawn into the macho thing...it does not matter whether Carlos Fandango used a 3/4 inch gap and a reversed lolly stick as a reed.

 

Beginner question..........

My lovely Buescher Aristocrat arrived some 5 months ago on my doorstep with two mouthpieces. One a Selmer s80, and two a Yamaha of unknown origin (since all the markings had rubbed off)

My questions is: should I be using a Buescher/Selmer mp, with the same instrument, or can I really mix and match with a yamaha mc etc? I mean, my logic thought that the perfect fit would be of the same make?? Is that wrong?? Do all mouthpieces fit properly, for tenor sax (obviously they will produce a different sound though) :?

I notice I have to achieve a completely different embouchure for each different mouthpiece. They both sound different, but I can't quite work out why, at the moment. Or which I prefer. And can anyone recommend a full/rich sound mp for a Buescher Aristocrat?

 

I have recently trodden the same path with a recently acquired Big B Buescher.
A full work out with my arsenal of tenor mouthpieces has revealed the almost embarrassing conclusion that the horn works best with the ubiquitous STM 5* and 2.5 Rico Royal reeds.
Although reluctant to abandon much more exotic, and expensive, mouthpieces, the Link does everything that could be asked of a mouthpiece.
We are told that the quality of these pieces varies; I must have been lucky with this piece which turned up in the case of and old tenor that I bought...I have another Link, a 6* NY, which is really dreadful.

 

I'm not at all familiar with mouthpieces names yet Captain Beeflat, so are you saying your STM 5 is a Selmer?? And your other one too? Could you just clarify what you are saying (pretend I know nothing about mp's and you'll probably be about right)

 

STM's are OTTO Links!

 

Many thanks JL for clarifying, I'll do some investigating...............

 

The tip opening is only one half of the equation. The other half is the reed strength. I'll play any mouthpiece and make it work, because I'll find the right reed for it.
On alto, anything above .085" works well with a Java 3. If it's below .085", I'll use a 3 1/2 and if it's below .067' ill use a java 4.
on my slant signature hard rubber Otto Link Tone Edge, 5, .065" I'll use a java 4.
on the Morgan Jazz 7M, .080" i'll use a Java 3 1/2...
If I use my Beechler White Diamond L8S, .090" i'll use Java 3's...