[1saxman]

I'm trying to ferret out the real differences between these two models. I've had a few people tell me that the Model 164 started with SN 820xxx and ran through 825xxx and that there are a mix of 164s and TS100s in the 825xxx range. After that, it's TS100 up through 829xxx.

There were two styles of engraving in the models I've seen. The earlier serial numbers tend to have the ribbon-style engraving while the later ones tend to have the typical American flower engraving found on the Mark VI and early MVII. The really late models might even have engraving up the back of the body tube (I've only seen this on altos, but I hear that this option was available for tenors too).

There are those that say that the key work was slightly simplified and cheapened when the model was re-designated TS100. I'm having a problem with this as I have 2 tenors in front of me...an 821xxx, which clearly falls within the Model 164 SN range, and another one in the high 825xxx range. I examined both horns thoroughly and found absolutely NO differences in the keywork. None. The neck is the same. The tenon socket is no different. The key work looks absolutely identical between the horns. All the ribs that the posts are attached to are the same. The only differences I could see were the color of the lacquer (early=dark, later=ligher) and the engraving (the early one had the ribbon engraving, the later had the more elaborate American Selmer flower engraving).

I've never had two altos in similar serial number ranges that I could compare like this...I'm wondering if there was a difference between the AS100 and the Model 162? Or is this all a bunch of hoo-hah like I suspect?

I'd love to hear from people that have compared the two, or can perhaps up some pics that we might use to compare them.

fm

No difference in the 821xxx and 825xxx because they're the same horn. About the time they started using the 'Super 80' clear lacquer and had changed to the 1,xxx,xxx serial numbers, they also were using Super 80-type larger RH pinky keys and a tear-drop hi F#. These are what I call the AS and TS100 series. About this time they gave up on the 'pro' angle and began to have great succes marketing them as 'intermediate' horns.

 

[1saxman]

'Were the Omega/162 saxes made by Buescher?'

No. I've got to hand it to you morons, this thread has brought out more misinformation than any I've seen before. Is there no end to it?

 

[soybean]

I thought it was an interesting question, since Selmer bought Buescher around the same time as the Omega came out. It occurred to me that Buescher designers or builders were possibly working for Selmer during this time. They also had a reputation for making great altos including the Big B and True Tone. If it is a moronic idea, how do you explain the continuity of Buescher serial numbers?

 

[tflanster]

I can tell you for sure that the sax you're describing is not a #164 or TS100. It's most likely a student model, maybe a 1244. The 'expert' is full of crap. No USA pro-line had a metal (no pearl) side F# or neck brace.

[COLOR="blue"You're correct in saying my horn's not a 164 or TS100. But you're incorrect in a couple other statements. The 1244 horn has 1244 engraved/stamped under the Selmer name. Mine is engraved Selmer USA. The 1244 has nickel-plated keys and rods. My horn is all brass/gold, no nickel plating anywhere. If you search far and wide for pics of Selmer USA horns you will find that in some years, they were manufactured with high F# "bar" side keys that are without pearls, and side F# keys that are teardrops without pearls. In fact I think there are a couple of "pro" altos shown here on the site with exactly those photos.

I'm not saying nor have I ever said my USA is a "pro level" horn. But for sure it ain't a 1244. I'd guess I spent 2 - 3 hours searching for info on the horn on-line and on phone calls to Selmer. The answers I got pretty much show that this particular model is what's often referred to as an "intermediate" instrument - whatever that means.

But, maybe you could help me and others out here; where did you find the info about my Selmer USA tenor sax? Is there a site or a company I missed? So far I've tried google, Bing and Yahoo search engines, Ask.com, Ask The Experts.com, Conn-Selmer.com and on the phone with them, FactCheck.com, All About Saxophone.com, and about a half-dozen others. I also took it to a local repair shop for them to check it out. They too agreed with Conn-Selmer customer service and Ask the Experts, that the horn's a 1989/'90 build, and they agreed about the high and side F# key appearance as common to that horn. At no time did "Model 1244, T100" or any other description appear in my posts or in their opinion of the instrument model. It is as described.

However, all that aside, this horn plays as well as any "pro" model I've ever played. In the end, that's really all that matters, isn't it?[/COLOR]

 

[vsj725]

I can tell you for sure that the sax you're describing is not a #164 or TS100. It's most likely a student model, maybe a 1244. The 'expert' is full of crap. No USA pro-line had a metal (no pearl) side F# or neck brace.

If this comment is just about the Selmer USA pro tenor horns, then I believe you. If you are including the model 162 altos, then you're flat out wrong about the USA pro-line horns never having a metal (no pearl) side F#. I posted a pic of mine earlier in this thread.
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/vsj725/Selmer_162.jpg
That's clearly a metal bar F#. You can scroll up and see my serial number. I bought the horn brand new in the summer of 1983. The earliest models of these horns had a metal bar and not the oval pearl side F# key.

 

[tflanster]

If this comment is just about the Selmer USA pro tenor horns, then I believe you. If you are including the model 162 altos, then you're flat out wrong about the USA pro-line horns never having a metal (no pearl) side F#. I posted a pic of mine earlier in this thread.
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/vsj725/Selmer_162.jpg
That's clearly a metal bar F#. You can scroll up and see my serial number. I bought the horn brand new in the summer of 1983. The earliest models of these horns had a metal bar and not the oval pearl side F# key.

That's the exact same metal bar high F# that's on my USA tenor.

 

[Fungus Mungus]

My my, look what I've stirred up!

So, I've learned a little more, mainly by looking at more horns. Based on the horns I've seen, here's what I'm guessing:

Very early Model 162 altos had a metal bar side F#...vsj725's pic is proof of this. I've heard this from other people, but discounted it. His (or her?) posting of a pic is what finally made me believe this.

Model 162 altos and 164 tenors had the ribbon style engraving that was fairly modest. Nothing like the American engraving found on American Mark VI models. I've seen this style of engraving from serials 821xxx up to 823xxx. These also had darker gold lacquer coatings.

Somewhere between 823xxx and 825xxx, Selmer redesignated these horns as AS100/TS100. I've heard someone claim that there was a mix of horns designated as 162/164 and AS/TS100 in this serial number range. I've seen horns in this range with both DARK gold lacquer and clear S80-style lacquer, as well as both ribbon and classic American Selmer engraving (with the typical flower adorning the back of the bell). I even have an alto in the 823xxx range that has BOTH the ribbon style engraving AND the American Selmer floral engraving on the back of the bell. I assume this might be some kind of "transitional' engraving style where they started to step up the engraving to make it look more like a pro horn.

For 825xx-830xxx ranges, Selmer stepped up the engraving and applied the same engraving (sometimes a little simplified) that was used on the Mark VI and early Mark VI American engraved models. This engraving typically extended all the way to the bow, but on altos, there are examples where the engraving extended all the way up the back of the body tube of the horn. I've only seen this in the 829xxx range. For the most part, the lacquer had changed from dark gold to the clear S80 style lacquer. The latest model I've seen was 830xxx in a tenor. Light lacquer, amazing engraving, and IDENTICAL to the horns dubbed "Model 164".

What I was trying to figure out was, is there a mechanical difference between a Model 162/164 from the 821xxx serial number range and an AS/TS100 from the 829xxx serial number range? From all of the horns I've looked at (over 20 so far), my observation tells me NO, there is no appreciable difference between the horns. The bore, neck, and key work look identical.

I say this because I've been hassled by a self-appointed "expert" that claims that Selmer "cheapened" the Selmer USA line when they changed the 162/164 line to AS/TS100. I can find absolutely no evidence supporting this claim. Once the serial numbers went to 1,xxx,xxx, there were definitely differences (neck brace, keywork changed, etc). But from the horns I've seen over the whole gamut of the Selmer USA "Pro" line, I could see no differences.

I have pics to back this all up, but it's almost 12:30am and I need to get some sleep before I wake up again at 5:30.

fm

 

[soybean]

Thanks for writing this. Very interesting stuff. So as far as you can tell, the body tube and tonehole placement is the same on all the horns?

 

[Fungus Mungus]

Yes, as far as I can tell, tone hole placement and the body tube is the same.

If you think about it, just the fact that they added much nicer engraving mimicking the MK VI of the past tells you the Selmer considered the 8xx,xxx horns "pro" horns to the very end. The engraving started off as very modest with the early Omegas, with just a little ribbon filigree on the front of the bell above the Selmer USA engraving. As the serial numbers went up, the engraving became more and more elaborate. If they were going to cheapen the horn by simplifying the key work or use cheaper materials, why would they step up the engraving? And why on earth would they offer full body engraving as an option on SN 829xxx horns (dubbed "intermediate" models by so-called experts)? It just doesn't make sense. It is more likely that Selmer was desperately trying to make this pro model more attractive to budget-minded horn players.

I think people people that claim that the AS/TS100 series horns are somehow "lesser" horns than the 162/164 horns are confusing them with the 1,xxx,xxx horns, or perhaps even the AS110/TS110 horns, which really are more of an intermediate horn (they did transition to simpler key work and cheaper materials). That would have been around the time that Selmer decided that pros were still buying Selmer Paris and gave up on the Selmer USA as a pro horn line.

fm

 

[kanne]

does anybody know the outer diameter of the neck tenon of 82XXXX tenor saxophones? Will modern Selmer Paris neck fit on these? I have a late Mark VI neck (diameter: 27,49mm) and am thinking about buying a Omega tenor as backup for my Mark VI as the keywork of the Omega look very simular to the Mark VI.
Any advice would be great. Thanks.

 

[Fungus Mungus]

I've got one at home I'll measure and get back to you.

fm

 

[kanne]

Fungus Mungus, this would be fine.
Thanks a lot.

 

[Fungus Mungus]

Measured...for those that are interested, the neck tenon had an OD of 27.5mm.

fm

 

[soybean]

thinking about buying a Omega tenor as backup for my Mark VI as the keywork of the Omega look very simular…

They look similar, but they do not feel the same- at least the altos don't. I have a mk VI and an model 162 Omega. The VI is a bit more comfortable for me. I recommend playing one before you buy.

 

[kanne]

soybean, thanks for the advice.
Unfortunately the Selmer USA saxophones are very rare here in Germany. There is no way for me to play one before. So I have just bought the saxophone for a good price so there is no problem to take a chance.

 

[soybean]

Good price is always good. Please post a review after you have owned it for a while. I'm curious about the tenors.

 

[kanne]

I have just bought a Selmer USA Omega from a SOTW member and got it the day before yesterday.
First, my Selmer Mark VI neck fits perfectly on this instrument. Thanks Fungus Mungus to measure the neck tenon of your Omegas.
I bought the Selmer USA as a backup for my Mark VI. I tried and bought many instruments the last years to find a good and "Mark VI like" backup for my rock´n´roll gigs. So I had 3 Selmer SA80I, 1 Selmer SA80II, 2 Guardala New York, 1 B&S Medusa, 1 B&S Blue label and 1 Yamaha YTS52.
There are some small differences to my Mark VI regarding the keywork. The front F key is a little bit lower, the low C key and the G# cluster smaller but overall to me it feels more like my Mark VI as all other Tenors I tried. After playing the Selmer USA the last two days I can say that these instruments are very underrated and less expensive than most of the other Tenors I tried.

 

[soybean]

Are you preferring the original neck or your VI neck? On the Omega alto, I tried my mark VI neck but did not like it as much as the original Selmer USA neck. The USA neck had more power.

 

[kanne]

I prefer the Mark VI neck on the Selmer USA as it has a lower arc and so a different playing position.
Besides, the USA neck is brighter and less centered than the Mark VI neck.

 

[TheChristianSax]

FWIW, my model 164 tenor, serial #823xxx has the simple floral ribbon and no other engraving other than Selmer USA, pearl F# key, pearl front F key and dark lacquer. It was purchased in 1985 from a local music store by my friends father (I was there that day) and had hung on the wall as a display model for at least a year. After he gave it up and let it sit in his closet for years, he gave it to me. It is a wonderful horn, that has a comfortable feel and a great sound. After owning a Yamaha for years, it was immediately noticible that it was a much better horn than my intermediate Yamaha. I would love to get a model 162 alto for a backup to my SDA.