1 stick should do it. However IMO on a C-melody the glue type should not matter. And unless you are an experieniced player you will not be able to tell the difference, as even many experienced players can not. It's more in relation to the feel of the keys and action, than in the sound difference. I have my preferences and thoughts on this being a player and professional tech, but they are not relevant. Unless you do 2 identical CM's one each with the different adhesives, you have no constant variables to compare hot-melt vs shellac. And there are several types/colors of shellac also, to add more variables into the mix.

Professionally and respectfully, and to not rain on your parade, but if you are apprenticing in BI repair, glue types should be the least of your concerns at this point. When you have serious repair chops, only then will you be able to understand my reasoning. Glad so see new techs in this industry. I highly encourage you to join www.napbirt.org, if you are truly serious in this trade.

 

I learned on shellac, when hot glue was considered a joke. Now there are better hot glues and more types. I like having and learning to use the benefit of each time, because there are times when one may work better for a particular situation. I would say get a stick and check it out. I use the stuff Ferree's has, the amber stick shellac. Most of the differences for players is all just a bunch of snake oil they have been sold, but for the tech its a matter of using the tool for the job, and until you try out new stuff, you don't know what that is for you?

 

I don't use shellac because it sounds different. I use it because it behaves differently during the repadding process. Shellac is "plastic" over a wider range of temperatures; that is, it is not liquid and definitely not solid, but it can be manipulated for fine adjustments. In other words, there is a little more time to work, yet melting temperature is fairly high so the pads are less likely to move once you are finished. I also like the smell.

I make my own sticks from flake shellac. It just seems to be a little better.

 

My repairman dissolves some flake shellac in alcohol till saturation.
Before applying (with a brush or qtip) he heats it a little bit.
Seems to work fast and well.

Jaaky

 

I cannot see the point in first dissolving the shellac in alcohol, and then having to evaporate the alcohol again when it is used. Why?

I think most technicians who have used both the solution and the stick would agree with me.

For me, I don't want to have a glue gun sitting around hot all the time ready to use, for the odd pad here and there. When I suddenly want to change a pad, I don't want to wait for a gun to heat. So that pretty well excludes excludes a gun.

And if I am not using a gun, then shellac is the easier adhesive to use simply because it does not make 'threads' as readily as the glue-gun sticks do. It seems that the MAIN thing against shellac is that some technicians claim it releases in very cold weather. But I rather suspect that that is because of the method used to apply it.

IMO, for stick shellac, the metal surface must be heated sufficiently to melt the glue immediately in contact with it. Also, glue needs to come in contact with the back of the pad while the glue is still quite hot.

I also prefer shellac because after I have cooled the back of the key cup to below 100C with a mist spray of water, I know I have a LITTLE time left to manoeuvre the pad, after which time it is set securely. The glue gun glues remain plastic for a fair bit lo, which is not what I want, when I want to get on with the nest task.

 

As a person who finds this whole topic of instrument repair fascinating and as a hobby woodworker, would somebody be so kind to humour me and answer the following question?

I have 2 jars of shellac flakes, one orange and the other blonde. The blonde is more highly refined which means apart from colour loss it also has far less wax in it.

A pad hypothetically just fell out of my sax. What can/do I do with my flakes to make a repair? Perhaps, the question is how do I turn my flakes into a more convenient stick.

I do have a glue gun but I really sympathize with the "strings" comment. Will the shellacing heat source melt a glue stick without it being in the gun?

A comment I'll make on glue sticks (I do woodturning and hot glue is used to hold mounting blocks onto blanks for mounting) is that the white/clear craft glue has little strength compared to the "heavy duty" yellow glue sticks.

Thanks for your help.

 

Gordon, some techs like to use the "burning in" method where you apply the dissolved shellac, light it on fire to remove the alcohol and install the pad. :?

I remember reading somewhere that one of the "world famous" techs prefers that method.

Personally I still prefer stick shellac but no longer use the bunsen burner or alcohol lamp. I mounted a heat gun to the end of the bench pointing straight up. I set up a momentary foot switch to turn it on. No soot! Also, it's set to a lower heat setting. (630 deg. F) Haven't ever scorched the lacquer with this set up.

 

You can also put the flakes in a steel or aluminum pan, use the heat gun or a propane torch, melt the pile of shellac flakes, and make sticks.

Caution, be careful handling the melted shellac. It is very hot and tends to stick to skin like napalm. Let it cool for a while before you shape the sticks.

 

Gordon, some techs like to use the "burning in" method where you apply the dissolved shellac, light it on fire to remove the alcohol and install the pad. :?

I remember reading somewhere that one of the "world famous" techs prefers that method.

Hmm. I rather think that "world famous" techs are mostly self-appointed as such. A modern tech still using this method is possibly blindly following an obsolete method used by some other dead-and-gone "world famous" tech.

 

You can also put the flakes in a steel or aluminum pan, use the heat gun or a propane torch, melt the pile of shellac flakes, and make sticks.

Caution, be careful handling the melted shellac. It is very hot and tends to stick to skin like napalm. Let it cool for a while before you shape the sticks.

I have never done this with shellac, but have re-shaped other hot-melt glues. A teflon sheet, as used for baking, can be useful, becuse the glue does not stick to it. It can also be rolled around the stick to help shape it.

 

"...Will the shellacing heat source melt a glue stick without it being in the gun?...".

There are many different approaches. It is the result that is important.

I heat the end of the stick over a Bunsen burner, and apply the goo direct to the back of the pad, as much as I deem to be required, repeating the heating and applying as necessary.

Then, before that cools too much, I heat the key cup over the Bunsen burner &/or with a butane torch, until I can smear a film of shellac over the inside back of the pad cup, from the unmelted stick.

Then I remove the cup from the heat and fit the pad inside the cup. Because I am in a hurry, I now squirt the back of the cup with a water mist to cool it to just below 100C. Then I massage the pad securely and evenly into the pad cup.

 

...A pad hypothetically just fell out of my sax. What can/do I do with my flakes to make a repair?....

Just to clarify:

I never re-use a pad that has fallen out. The chances of getting it back exactly as it was before, for a reliable seal, are fairly slim. So I replace it.

 

I cannot see the point in first dissolving the shellac in alcohol, and then having to evaporate the alcohol again when it is used. Why?

Hi Gordon NZ , If i remember correctly - this method is used with a brush to paint on the shellac and is used eg on a key foot to attach cork etc.
I dont personally use this method myself I use good old evo stick contact cement - I say good old evo stick - there's a new formula now and the new stuff is more transluscent and stringy too - i dont like it !

 

gluing pads

Hi Gordon.
I was wondering why you put glue on the pad and the cup both. are you afraid the heated glue in the key cup wont stick to the pad? Are you floating the pad in the cup or puting it in solid with preasure while the glue is still melted? Thanks, for all your help.

How much glue is to much?

 

I use glue as an adhesive ONLY, in the locations where there is leather contacting the key cup. Not as a filler. I use it as an adhesive AND filler where the cardboard and rivet are, in order to provide a secure, solid foundation for the pad.

What I put in the key cup is only a smear. I put enough quantity on the back of the pad to act as filler as well as adhesive.

To me, the important thing for good adhesion is applying the glue to a hot key cup, and hot glue to at least the centre of the pad. Shellac sticks to shellac very well.

If I wanted to adjust the alignment of pads after installation, I would use a fair bit more glue, either applied to the cup or the pad.

Another reason for applying it to the back of the pad, is that it is easy to apply it to the CENTRE of the pad. Then, when the pad is 'massaged' into the key cup, the glue spreads evenly across the back without air bubbles, before it starts oozing out the sides. For illustration, imagine you applied glue only around the leather part. Then there is an air pocket behind the centre of the pad, so when the pad is massaged into the cup, that air pocket will force glue out around the edge of the pad before the air pocket is removed.

I reiterate, other technicians will have different but valid methods. I am not being at all dogmatic or dictatorial here. Just what my mind and experience tells me works best for me.

 

Our woodworking friend should know that the "stick shellac" that is ready made is not really the same shellac as your shellac flakes. Today's stick shellac is called a "laquer stick" in woodworking parlance - It will not dissolve completely in methanol as actuall all natural (ie beatle secretion) will - I am not 100% sure of the composition of these laquer sticks, I do belive they contain shellac but also synthetic resin and personally I find they work great (also they don't stink like real shellac - when it melts)

 

I once tracked down a (the?) factory that supplies all these shellac sticks. They had a HUGE variety on offer, and would formulate to one's requirements.

I find some sticks, particularly clearer ones, far more brittle than the standard amber Ferree's ones. So I am quite sure there are different additives that they use in addition to the flake, to enhance different properties.

 

stick shellac

Gordon,
Do you have a phone number I can call for the shellac factory?

I would sure like to buy direct.

Thanks, Paul