At least one note out of the four 16th notes has to be on a downbeat or an upbeat.
Unless they are 16th rests.

 

I learned it as doodle tonguing. There's a Count Basie tune called Doodle Oodle where the sax section doodle tongues!

Here's a Quamon Fowler video (I love his playing, check him out) explaining doodle tonguing:

Also, David Sanborn's tonguing is so unique. When I'm playing his transcriptions, I listen once to get the general feeling. And then I listen again just for articulation. Sometimes it takes a few days to internalize it. I don't try to map it out by 16th notes, it's actually easier in the long run to just use your ear. And sometimes I'll use the Transcribe program to play it at a slower tempo.

 

Listening closely to his style and copying it is key to understanding. In general, long lines of eighth note runs are tongued (lightly) on the upbeats, and those upbeats are slightly accented. Notes are also stopped with the tongue rather than tapered off with the breath as in classical music. It's also typical to tongue and accent peaks of phrases, regardless of whether they fall on an upbeat or downbeat.

 

There is NOTHING 'proper' about jazz...............................................................................If you are 'proper'....you're doing it wrong

 

Yep, that's why jazz musicians have their own style. However, there are general trends in how jazz is played.

 

Perhaps the OP means strings of 8th notes rather than quarter notes? For strings of 16th notes one possible approach is to treat them as double time 8th notes, as often done in funk.

 

Thank u for correcting that for me. Yes that’s exactly what I meant so thank you for pointing that out I really appreciate that.

And for everyone else this has been such a great thread and I can’t Believe how many wonderful answers I’ve gotten already. Thank you so much

 

Jeff Coffin and Caleb Chapman, director of the award winning Crescent Band made up of high school students have produced a book on how to play and teach jazz articulation.

The Articulate Jazz Musician

 

16th notes. All over the place. If your funky song is in a modern more hip-hop style, a lot of times those 16ths are swung, so you would tongue the 2nd and 4th note in each group. Just like swing eigths in jazz swing. Tower of Power style, every 16th can be tongued staccato. Jazz swing, a 16th run can be completely slurred. It all depends on the specific style of the groove you are playing. The groove is in charge.

 

I found these Jeff Harrington books very helpful. All the articulation for the first 10 solos is written out so it’s nice to follow along with the CD and see where the tonguing and slurs are. This is the alto book but there’s also a tenor book.

Amazon.com: ESSENTIAL SOLOS FOR ALTO SAXOPHONE SAXOPHONE +CD: 0805095144208: JEFF HARRINGTON: Books

Amazon.com: ESSENTIAL SOLOS FOR ALTO SAXOPHONE SAXOPHONE +CD: 0805095144208: JEFF HARRINGTON: Books

www.amazon.com

 

IMO the missing link in amateur players is Jazz articulation along with Bop/melodic enclosures etc. Chad explains the Doo-Dah-Ooh-Dah like an old BeBop player teacher I had 40 years ago. It's the most important part of the Jazz/BeBop language.

 

I get all the reservations about a "rule" v. listening but, man, did I find this video succinct and helpful. Thanks for posting --a "like" isn't adequate.

Having not come from the "academic jazz" world, I've never been taught "dood-en." I've always been a little mystified by the fact that so much of what you read about jazz says" swing = syncopation = accent the off beats!" BUT, when you do so, it just isn't always the sound. Most of the time, after 40 years, this isn't an issue in my own (guitar) playing, I just play, but, sometimes I'm aware that if I think too much my accent patterns seem to get exactly turned around, and, when I try to explain/teach "swing" to students, the single idea of off-beat articulation just isn't adequate.

I think that making the distinction between different articulation patterns for ascending and descending runs is exactly what I've been hearing, and doing when I just play, but had not really sorted out intellectually as inherent in the "pronunciation" of the swing/bebop language. Helpful that Lefkowitz-Brown confronts this issue of inadequate conceptualization and vocabulary directly. Certainly, it's not everything, but I tend to think in music there are deep patterns and variation, and, understanding the deep patterns are crucial. I've failed to understand one of the deep patterns.

One thing I love about music is all the "lightbulb" moments. This was one for me, so, thanks to Berg-Man and to Lefkowitz-Brown.

 

Well, you go ahead and learn the dot-dah-dot-dah-dot articulation for long strings of eighth notes; but keep it as ONE of many articulations. I can always tell someone who learned how to play jazz in the classroom from other people who learned how to play jazz in the classroom, by the way their solos rely on long strings of eighths and the dot-dah-dot-dah-dot articulation. They'll tell you "This is the Cannonball Adderley articulation" but if you actually LISTEN to Cannon, you'll see that he rarely actually plays long strings of eighths, and when he does the articulation is highly varied. I listened to many hours of Adderley when this "jazz articulation" business got started, and I swear I was unable to find an example of this in his playing, except of course for the short burst here and there.

There is no "proper jazz articulation". There are many ways to separate and tongue notes that are used in jazz playing and you need to have a command of all of them. You need to develop your own style of articulating just as you have your own style of speaking.

It's also not necessary to tongue (whether softly or hard) each note, like people seem to think.

 

Listen listen listen listen listen.
And play along.
David Sanborn is a good AND bad example.
Good, because very obvious and assumed. Bad, because very personal and sometimes unusual.
Phil Woods & Cannonball.
Would be my paramount examples of what articulation is about in a bop post-bop context.

 

Articulation is part of your sound… your style… even your tone really. There really is no “right” way to articulate in jazz. It’s more so how do you want to sound when articulating? If you are trying to learn how Sanborn does it, great! Get a slow downer program or something to help you listen to the articulations in smaller chunks on repeat and work to imitate. Find what makes your tongue make that sound. Then work it into yourself. Remember, go slow to go fast….

Note that each player is going to have their own articulation style so… in that you can count sections as a player as well, TOP horns will have an articulation style as will the Maynard Ferguson horn section, as well the Count Basie Orchestra… take them each as themselves as well as their soloists as themselves separate. Learn to listen to as many as you can to help you decide how you want to sound and also how to listen in a section to be more in sync with the section’s articulation.

 

How about this question? And a lot of Charlie Parker phrases he begins on usually the and of beat four. And then goes on to several 16 notes usually covering two Sometimes more bars. So with that being said rather than going doo-den doo-den etc etc. Would you start that first note which again is on the and of four with ( den doo-den-doo etc

Or is it pretty much irrelevant whether the phrase begins on an upbeat or on the beat itself?

again I apologize for these very silly amateurish questions but how else will I ever get better anyways I appreciate all the help you guys have given me so that’s far. This website has been invaluable to me and I love each and everyone of you like a true friend.

Sean

 

How about this question? And a lot of Charlie Parker phrases he begins on usually the and of beat four. And then goes on to several 16 notes usually covering two Sometimes more bars. So with that being said rather than going doo-den doo-den etc etc. Would you start that first note which again is on the and of four with ( den doo-den-doo etc

You're asking the write questions, and doing the most important thing: transcribe. But what several people are hinting at... What did HE do? That's the answer.

however I don’t have a computer so I can’t slow down the songs unless I use YouTube

There's a phone app called "Amazing Slow Downer" that works, I believe. You'd have to have the MP3 downloaded to your phone.

-Bubba-

 

Usually articulate the first note and the offbeats after that. Just treat 16ths like double time using the same pattern. But direction changes and many other notes will also be articulated for emphasis. This becomes natural with practice. For now drill the offbeat tonguing until you don’t have to think about it.

 

The first time I had to transcribe a solo I was in my second semester of college and had to transcribe a solo for a class... They never told me I should use common jazz notation. I actually counted it exact like it was classical. That was an oof... I have sense learned that articulation and style matter.

 

Hey guys this is awesome stuff I can’t believe that I literally started this thread about 24 hours ago and wow we’re on page 2 of all positive feedback this is tremendous thank you so much guys. I must say that it’s quite daunting when I’m constantly trying to think about all these weird syllables and sounds while trying to play at the same time as well as figuring out which beach should be emphasized and such I guess there’s just a whole lot that I need to learn but I’m sure it’s just like anything elsewhere at the beginning you’re very much overwhelmed and then pretty much in no time it comes second nature so that’s what I hope will happen since I have a room full of the best scholars and teachers ever here to help me 😉

on the first page someone was gracious enough to post a video from Chad LB and I’ve seen that video several times myself but I guess I want to ask is. Is this technique something that I should ignore for now and really just try and tackle the basics first. For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, the video that I’m referring to is a method where he is teaching doing two different types of phrasing or articulations dependant upon whether the line is ascending or descending.

I hope you guys say yeah don’t worry about that type of stuff for now because I can’t even wrap my head around the concept of it let alone playing it lol.
Anyways as always ladies and gentlemen thank you so much you’re too kind and just so very gracious with your time and expertise. I can’t wait to get out of work so I can work on my articulation lol

 

on the first page someone was gracious enough to post a video from Chad LB and I’ve seen that video several times myself but I guess I want to ask is. Is this technique something that I should ignore for now and really just try and tackle the basics first. For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, the video that I’m referring to is a method where he is teaching doing two different types of phrasing or articulations dependant upon whether the line is ascending or descending.

I hope you guys say yeah don’t worry about that type of stuff for now…

Ignore that video with impunity. (Note also that in Post #21 above, that the articulation is much the same ascending/descending - except for a couple measures where it falls right on the beat.)

You get the gist. Now go make music.

 

I just want to say this - your question stems from the academic-izing (academizing?) of jazz. There is no right way. What you need to do is take a solo from a recording and learn to play it by ear. Choose one which a) you like and b) you can play in tempo. Even just a single chorus, or 8 bars. Learn it by ear, don’t try to write it down. Just sing and play along with it. Make sure you get EVERYTHING about this - dynamics, articulation, vibrato, tone color even.

There is no right way. Every musician, especially the ones we all hold in high esteem (Bird, Newk, Hawk, Trane, Dex, Stanley, Brecker,…) each have their own style. Learn how they did it, there is no way to write this stuff down, internalize the phrasing, then develop your own style.

Bob Reynolds did a video on his practice routine a few months ago that might get you out of your concentration on finding the “one right way”. I took a lot from this video. Hope this helps.

 

What you need to do is take a solo from a recording and learn to play it by ear. Choose one which a) you like and b) you can play in tempo. Even just a single chorus, or 8 bars. Learn it by ear, don’t try to write it down. Just sing and play along with it. Make sure you get EVERYTHING about this - dynamics, articulation, vibrato, tone color even.

On this topic specifically, speaking personally as a beginner-- while dynamics, vibrato, tone color are self-evident listening to a recording, when you're new to sax and don't fully understand tonguing (this is me still probably) it's not so obvious just listening to tell for sure where it's occurring. I'm sure to an experienced player such as yourself, you can't imagine ever having been not able to tell, but yeah... I'm not there yet. I'm just kind of following the "upbeats generally" idea and hoping for the best. Of course I can play the same thing on piano and guitar with good rhythmic feel, so hopefully just having that sensibility helps, but those other instruments don't have tonguing.

 

The real point of listening and imitating is - learning to make a particular sound, with all its characteristics, for yourself. It doesn’t really matter whether you tongue or slur or breath attack or whatever, as long as you match the feel. So, for example, Dexter will often tongue every eighth note in a phrase, I might slur the whole thing but with the same rhythmic feel. Or tongue every other note (offbeat tonguing), or…

Matching the sound and feel of another player’s performance is a key skill, whether you are learning improvisation or playing in a section. Using transcription as a way to develop your ear-to-horn connection will advance that skill.

 

I have no argument about the usefulness of transcription. It’s like the most important thing you can do generally. All I’m saying is if you’re specifically trying to understand tonguing, it isn’t so much help. Case in point: you can hear that that’s what Dexter is doing (tonguing every eighth in a phrase) but I can’t hear that, not yet. I would sure like to develop that aspect of my understanding but looking around for actual resources that address the topic, I haven’t found much of anything.

 

I don't want to speak for Dr. G, but I think his point was the ascending/descending thing is just way more than a beginner needs to worry about at this stage. Chad is fantastic , but clearly aimed more at the advanced player than the beginner. Learn offbeat articulation, and the rest will come naturally over time.

Having said that, I really don't hear much of a difference in the ascending/descending lines of Birds, Stitt and others. Maybe it's a more modern thing I just haven't come across yet in my listening.

 

I don't want to speak for Dr. G, but I think his point was the ascending/descending thing is just way more than a beginner needs to worry about at this stage. Chad is fantastic , but clearly aimed more at the advanced player than the beginner. Learn offbeat articulation, and the rest will come naturally over time.

Having said that, I really don't hear much of a difference in the ascending/descending lines of Birds, Stitt and others. Maybe it's a more modern thing I just haven't come across yet in my listening.

Thanks buddy. I appreciate you saying this as well as of course Dr G. As well as you saying you have a hard time hearing the difference in the ascending/ descending lines from the greats, to be completely honest o don’t even hear the difference when Chad is playing them here. It’s embarrassing to admit that but I’m being totally honest. I guess I’ve spent waaaay too much time developing my sound concept and other much more fun things to work on rather than spending my time shedding in the more important things like syncopation, timing, articulation, and Rythym. Luckily I’m relatively young still lol. Off to the shed I go 🫡