by "to get the creases" do you mean to seat the pads? Put that little ring in the pad where the tonehole goes? Absolutely unnecessary to use an oven for that. Just wedge something under the key foots for a few hours holding the pad to the tone hole. You'll get your seats.

As for using an oven to pop out the old pads..... I just can't see why this would be more efficient. It only takes a couple of seconds with a torch to melt the shellac on each key, then you pop out the pad. Trying to use an oven to save maybe 5 total minutes of time with the torch seems like a recipe for something more serious to go wrong.

 

As for using an oven to pop out the old pads..... seems like a recipe for something more serious to go wrong.

all this talk of ovens and recipies... reminds me I need to do some baking!

ovens are for cakes! spirit lamps and torches that have a flame, are for pad cups.

 

I've seen the whole horn go in the oven after it has its new pads to get the creases.

Where did you see this?
I thought I was the only one that tried that.

 

I've seen the whole horn go in the oven after it has its new pads to get the creases.

Where did you see this?
I thought I was the only one that tried that.

Yeah, but wasn't that the same day you tried to overhaul the pot roast.....???

 

I'm just trying to get of using the torch! I haven't done it before and I figured the oven may decrease the chance of me lighting something on fire! But if it must be the torch than so be it.
Yes I was talking about seating the pads. I found a shop that sticks the whole horn in the oven when I was searching the net for info on putting the pads in the oven. I know wedging them works to...

 

Sorry I didn't pay attention to who it was doing it. I just stumbled across pictures...

Checked my history... here's the link to the pictures...
http://www.bandman.biz/sax/index.htm

 

There's no way to get out of using a torch. Even if you use an oven to seat as shown in that picture, you need to use a torch to level the pads before you seat them.

 

There's no way to get out of using a torch. Even if you use an oven to seat as shown in that picture, you need to use a torch to level the pads before you seat them.

Yes there is. I level the key cups, which levels the pads. It works. No heat needed for that. I have no more bed of glue than is necessary to to glue the leather part of the back of the pad, and fill/glue the cardboard part. I don't tilt pads in key cups after they are installed. And I think big name manufacturers do the same thing.

BTW, an advantage in using a torch for removing pads, rather than an oven, is that you can exert removal force with a pad slick while you are heating. Then almost all the glue comes out with the pad, because the pad comes out as soon as the glue actually in contact with the key cup melts.

 

Have you given any thought to the Microwave?

:twisted:

 

Fair point, Gordon.

 

Wouldnt recomend this at all. I've put the odd aerosol laquered key(s) in the oven-- very low setting BTW. Other than a torch a hot air gun but, these take ages and can do more damage than a flame IMO.

 

With a flame, you can do a pretty good job of avoiding heating pearls and key corks. Not in an oven. They will reach the same temp as the rest of the key.

If heating with a flame, while pulling at the pad, the pad is released at the lowest temp possible. In an oven, the temperature you choose to bring the keys to will be guesswork.

 

Thanks for all the replies! Knowing the "why" behind using a torch makes a lot more sense now. Wish me luck in not burning myself!

 

Putting a sax in the oven to remove pads seems like a half baked idea...

 

i found my shellac softened/melted around 110-120deg, which is not particularly hot for the oven, and probably would not damage the pearls/lacquer either. (not like you would be putting the whole sax in anyway)

but for putting pads in, oven does seem a bit odd. Could be done if you really really hated using flame...

Whoa! Take a good look at those new creases on the lower stack. Most horns don't even come from the factory that well creased!

wot? :?

 

I can't see how using an oven work for anything really.

For removing pads, putting the entire sax in the oven makes no sense anyway, working with over gloves, etc.! By the time you remove the second pads the glue for all the other would be too firm again.

Putting just the keys doesn't seem practical either. Less comfortable not being able to hold any part of any key with your hand. Have to work near the oven, probably not your main work area, taking each key out to remove the pad, not being able to heat while removing the pad, etc. etc. so many reason it makes no sense to me.

For aligning the pads over tones holes it makes even less sense to me. If you put a layer of glue behind the pad, then hold the key close, then heat it and wait for it to cool, most chances the pad will not automatically be aligned correctly. Using this method of aligning, how could you work on the sax when it's in the oven?!

 

...If you put a layer of glue behind the pad, then hold the key close, then heat it and wait for it to cool, most chances the pad will not automatically be aligned correctly. ...

Indeed, the result is that the pad closes more firmly near the hinge than the opposite side. I have yet to analyse why, but that is what they do.

I use this technique on the low pads of a clarinet when I want to cure a condition that is the opposite. I don't use enough glue behind sax pads for them to move in the pad cups.

... I do know of some repairers who put flute bodies in an oven to seat the pads, ...

I do this when I do a full repad. But I don't do it to align pads in any way, nor to adjust, nor to achieve a "seat". My aim is that even lighter finger pressure can be used while playing, because the microscopically hairy, grainy, irregular surface of the pad membrane has been ironed flatter where it contacts the tone hole.

After accurate adjustment of a sax, light, quite briefly clamping can achieve the same thing with leather. But the clamping is not for the purpose of adjusting the closure of the pads.

 

Just think of the mess you'll have if you put a whole sax in an oven to melt the shellac (or whatever glue is used) to remove the pads - although shellac will soften at 100°C, it will need more heat to further melt the shellac to make the shellac more liquid so the pads can be removed much easier - probably around 150°C.

Then you've got the problem of removing the pads - the whole sax will be too hot to touch or hold, and any plastic parts (such as the LH thumb button and rollers) will also soften and touching them will leave fingerprints permanently embedded in the surface.

Then you have to go about removing the pads while the keys are still on the instrument unless you plan to remove the keys, by which time things will have cooled down so a lot of the pads won't be easy to remove.

If you choose to remove the pads while the keys are in situ, remember the body of the sax is also hot, so removing pads from closed keys will only cause more grief and cleaning up as unless you can disengage ALL the springs, the keys will close against the toneholes and the glue will stick to them which will mean dismantling the sax to clean all this unwanted glue up.

So all in all, not a good idea. You're best stripping the sax down in the usual manner and removing the pads by heating with a gas torch or bunsen burner to melt the glue and cleaning out all the remaining glue from the pad cups. There are no short-cuts or other time saving techniques, so stick with tradition - you'll only end up making more work for yourself in trying out something that goes horribly wrong.

I do know of some repairers who put flute bodies in an oven to seat the pads, and they also did this until fairly recently at the B&H factory with Buffet flutes (they were never made by Buffet, and then production moved to Schreiber in Germany in the late '90s where the B12 and E11 were being made). But then again these Buffet flutes were never much cop anyway, as for the repairers I know that also do this - their work also has a lot to be desired.

 

And yet some technicians report that they heat the key cup, then firmly close the key, in order to get pads aligned right. Hmm.

Quick and easy, but I wonder what the alignment results are really like.

 

Gordon, re the flute in the oven,

I know JL Smiths flute tech promotes this process and sells an oven specifically to do this. I personally havent used an oven ""yet"" to finess any of the flute repads, but it does intrigue me, what type of oven are you using to do yours with, or are you simply using the heat from a leak light to achieve the same result.

 

That's about the only thing I use my kitchen oven for, which makes it tax deductable.