I have no embouchure and am proud of it,

Can you explain this further?

 

You can play swing on a lot of old and new mouthpieces. The main part of 'the trick' is not in the mouthpiece, but in how the player plays it.

Scott Hamilton played for years on a very big tip (10-12) Otto Link metal Florida mouthpiece, but I heard he recently switched to a smaller tip 40's Tone Master Otto Link. Indeed the old guys played on smaller tip pieces (bigger where not available in that time), but those mouthpieces where often opened a bit by refacing.

I uploaded some clips of Herschel Evans on YouTube and posted them in a (very long!) thread we did here on SOTW some while ago. This thread contains lots of examples of great tenor players from or inspired by the swing era of jazz. I think you will enjoy it a lot .

- The SOTW thread can be found here: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?164921-Why-don-t-tenors-sound-like-this-anymore
- The Herschel Evans clips can be found here (post #203 on page 11): http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...64921-Why-don-t-tenors-sound-like-this-anymore&p=1732545&viewfull=1#post1732545

 

You can play swing on a lot of old and new mouthpieces.

I agree with this totally, What I have found with many modern mouthpieces , as opposed especially to those available in the 30s, is the versatility. Mouthpiece makers and refacers have learnt a lot over the years, and I believe its possible to make mouthpieces that can help you get (I almost incorrectly wrote "give you") a modern tone, but without losing the ability to get a vintage sound.

I would have thought that a relaxed embouchure allows you to bend the notes in a more soul singer imitation

I don't think this is necessarily true, I think it's ideal to develop an embouchure that can change as necessary, a totally relaxed embouchure all the time would not be much use to me, and my work involves playing different styles including swing and modern R & B.

 

Swing is a style of playing. It has very little to do with any given type of mpc. Of course a mpc with a med to big chamber and relatively large tip will help you get a warmer, bolder sound than a small-chamber mpc, but you still need to know how to play it.

 

I think the OP is saying he plays a very close mouthpiece on purpose that doesn't require much in the way of embouchure strength and control. I'm not sure what the tip opening on a Tonalin 2* is but a refacer could close down something like a Link Tone Edge 5 to give you something like this. You might also look into some of the mouthpieces for classical playing as well since they are typically available in smaller tip openings- like a Morgan 2C - which I've seen listed at .65.

 

Thanks for the replies and mrpeebee, thanks for the link. I had started this link before and forgot to finish, so much to devour. I thought of posting a Booker Ervin solo on it, but didn't see one of his Texas cries' solos on a quick search of YouTube.

KeithL, you understood my post, I was always the kid who couldn't blow up his balloon, and thanks for the steerings. I checked the Link, boy, there's real quality sound in that. I wonder if I could somehow get a big dry tone out of that. I'll probably give it a try. Thanks

Pete, for the shaky vibrato, best to hear some Herschel. He's at 1:30.

See how he literally shuts things on and off. Nothing wrong with the clampjaw vibrato, there's some beauties out there, but I think the vibrato goes more through the sound rather than opening and closing the sound like Herschel does.
Question of taste, I guess, but I don't see how you could execute that open Evansy vibrato with the clampjaw.

Reading those mouthpiece ads and the 'not your grandpa's mouthpiece' comments here, they definitely give the impression that the larger opening you can play, the better the saxophonist you are. I guess there's advantages to it that I haven't learned yet, but surely that just isn't true, and a bad direction, that there's only one way to play, to give to young would be players.

 

Reading those mouthpiece ads and the 'not your grandpa's mouthpiece' comments here, they definitely give the impression that the larger opening you can play, the better the saxophonist you are. I guess there's advantages to it that I haven't learned yet, but surely that just isn't true, and a bad direction, that there's only one way to play, to give to young would be players.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "clampjaw" but typically you will need some flexibility for good vibrato.

As far as larger tip openings go- you aren't necessarily a better player just because you play a mouthpiece with a larger tip opening. Stan Getz, regarded as one of the greatest tenormen ever played fairly closed pieces (not Tonalin 2*'s but closed by today's standards) for most of his career. A larger tip opening will give you a bigger sound as it allows more air to be used without the reed closing off. Of course, as you point out above, it takes much more effort and skill to control the sound from a mouthpiece with a wider tip. You are also correct in suggesting that folks, often younger players, try to jump to mouthpieces with too large a tip too soon. There are numerous posts of "I want to sound like Joe Lovano, Josh Redman, Scott Hamilton, etc.." and off they go to buy an Otto Link STM in a 10* or whatever which then results in the development of a lot of bad habits because they don't have the chops to play a mouthpiece like that.

If the sound you are looking for is represented by the sax solo on the Youtube link you posted you are looking for the right thing in terms of mouthpieces. However, don't expect to find a sound clip like this posted on any mouthpiece maker's site as you are in a small minority of sax players with this sound concept in mind.

 

Pete!!!? You don't know ol' Clampjaw?? Lockjaw's cousin, wasn't he? Or daddy or somethin'? Very influential cat, it appears. I thought I was letting you off easy with just the vibrato. What about drawling or bending or shaping the note? So much easier with a relaxed embouchure, if even possible with the clampjaw, I would think. I doubt I could re-find the "grandpa's mouthpiece" comment that triggered the above senior moment, and the Otto Link ad referred to the 5 and 5*s as for beginners. I don't think it's news. I think budding players see it like that -getting the chops to play those wide open mps as a desirable, necessary goal. Looking forward to coming across one of your soundclips.

KeithL. Thanks for another thoughtful reply to my grumblings. You're right about how Herschel's style has petered out to a tiny minority with other saxophonists now. More's the pity. With the general public of his time, he was popular, if not in name, then in record sales and occupying a solid place in popular mainstream music. That clip I posted reached number 6 on the charts. Saxophone today is on the fringe, whereas the great bluesrock guitarists of the sixties and seventies played Herschel's type of blues based music to great popularity, with the saxes on the outside looking in. Copying by too many tenors just got boring?

You mentioned Stan Getz. What caused Lester Young to abandon his tiny tip mouthpiece and his beautiful tone for his wide open Ebolin and less attractive tone? Herschel being mean to him about his soft tone?; bands getting louder, and saxes had to keep up?; all the Getz's and Quinichette's copying him note for note, so he wants to be different?; Lester's competitive, macho personality, that nobody had the chops he had? Some of those last records, his mouthpiece opening is so huge, he could barely sound the note. Why did he do that!?? So tragic.
And yet clampjaw's the only game in town.

 

What caused Lester Young to abandon his tiny tip mouthpiece and his beautiful tone for his wide open Ebolin and less attractive tone? Herschel being mean to him about his soft tone?; bands getting louder, and saxes had to keep up?; all the Getz's and Quinichette's copying him note for note, so he wants to be different?; Lester's competitive, macho personality, that nobody had the chops he had? Some of those last records, his mouthpiece opening is so huge, he could barely sound the note. Why did he do that!?? So tragic.
And yet clampjaw's the only game in town.

I'm not sure if I can share your conclusions here about Lester Young. The old Link he used in the 30's (I think it was a Master Link) had an opening of 5 or 5*, which was one of the biggest available in that time. He used hard baritone reeds on it and his sound was massive and according to what I hear on those old Basie recordings even bigger than the sound of the great Herschel Evans. Those old Links had much longer facing curves than modern pieces and they can sound and play even more resistant than for instance a modern 7* Link (I own and play all of those pieces regularly and have experienced that).

The Brilhart that Lester used later in his career had not a huge tip, it's only a 7 or 7* and it has a different facing curve and smaller chamber than his old Link. He also started using plastic reeds. The differences in chamber and reed are IMO the biggest reasons for his other sound, and not the tip size. I don't know why he changed his mouthpiece, but he probably wanted to have another and more unique (not Linkish) sound. I also prefer his old sound by far. Another reason for the difference in sound could be linked to his health condition (we all know he become weaker and weaker later in his life).

 

My Rob Dorsey Detector just lit up . . .

 

:yikes!: talk about big mouthpieces!

Besides...everybody knows the only way to sound like Herschel Evans is to play lots of longtones!

 

:yikes!: talk about big mouthpieces!

Besides...everybody knows the only way to sound like Herschel Evans is to play lots of longtones!

.....or trombone?

 

I see this thread is still highlighted like it's still current and I felt bad not replying to mrpeebee's thoughtful post, but since the derision boys came jettisoning, I thought better to exit stage left in case lightning bolts came raining down on Atonal for such shocking blasphemy. I doubt the trombone or long tones will give you an Evans sound, but a Tonalin with a short curve and a reed that's thinned down an inch or so down, I guess so a larger section vibrates rather than just the tip, will, but then you still gotta play it. And the sax matters. Clanky and Fezziwig, my two old Conns, produce a dry texas sound, but my 30a Buescher gives a richer Hawkinsy sound. Reeds for the Tonalin are so touchy to make. too. That's why I'm looking for a new mouthpiece, it's like I lost my knack, scrapped up a whole box of Ricos, and all I got was the uglies. There's gotta be something better out there. Tonalins are uncanny, they're like con men; they give you what you want to hear, but you gotta pay the price.

Mrpeebee, you're probably right about Pres for a given time anyway. I've read him and Herschel were always carving up reeds and stuff, so maybe he was doing it his whole career. Lester's got an Ebolin on that '44 jazz film, and he looks to have his old relaxed embouchure. But I'm sure I read, at the end he was using, I think, an eleven opening. I forgot about the plastic reeds, too. That'll sock it to you.

I got this buddy who casts model cars with acrylic. Has anybody tried to make their own Tonalite or anything. Seems possible when you see what he comes up with. Are Tonalites acrylic? Are they cast in one piece or two parts? I understand water based acrylic are relatively new.

 

Tenorsfan, I think the sound/vibrato of Herschel was personal and more linked to his way of playing than to his mouthpiece (an old Master Link). You should be able to come close to that kind of sound on any big chamber, small tip mouthpiece (with a harder reed) using the correct embouchure and airstream. Check this post with a link to a great video of Don Menza where he just changes his embouchure, mouth- and tong position and sounds like Hawk, Getz and Coltrane using his own mouthpiece: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...?180899-Brecker-s-take-on-mouthpiece-selection&p=1893609&viewfull=1#post1893609

I never heard anything about Pres using an 11 tip mouthpiece, it doesn't sound realistic to me. Do you have a source for that information?

You have to be very careful with acrylic home made mouthpieces. Acrylic polymers can have acrylic monomer residues that can cause health issues when taken into your mouth. A mouthpiece is not a model car :bluewink:! Also the material of a mouthpiece is by far not the most important factor in how a mouthpiece sounds: chamber configuration and baffle are (besides the player) far more important (I know this is a can of worms ). Concentrate on the Don Menza info would be my advice for now.

 

You have to be very careful with acrylic home made mouthpieces. Acrylic polymers can have acrylic monomer residues that can cause health issues when taken into your mouth. A mouthpiece is not a model car :bluewink:! Also the material of a mouthpiece is by far not the most important factor in how a mouthpiece sounds: chamber configuration and baffle are (besides the player) far more important (I know this is a can of worms ). Concentrate on the Don Menza info would be my advice for now.

You can say that again. I imagine apart from any health hazards, acrylic would not be suitable as I don't think it could be worked easily and still retain any kind of strength. casting or moulding generally needs hand finishing and I wouldn't relish the idea with acrylic.

 

Most bite plates are made from acrylic.

 

If produced and cured under good conditions in a controlled industrial process that doesn't have to be an issue (acrylic monomer content will be very low or zero in that way).

 

Yes, some risk to the maker. Almost none to the player.

 

Thanks for the acrylic warnings, guys. I almost went to the hobby store before I checked the computer. Guess I need some research.

Buck, sent you a private message.
carl.

PS
If I gotta be some Dorsey guy, and he sounds like a real clever, great guy, couldn't I at least be Jimmy. I wanta be Jimmy. Then I can tell all the girls, "yes, yes, that was me on So Rare. It's not as old as you think, you know." But I don't wanta be Tommy, though. Don't make me Tommy. You know how old Atonal will get all worked up and bothered if he hears that. Not a pretty sight. Him and his 'bones, you know.

 

For a nice swing era mouthpiece, I suggest anything that's shaped like a pickle.

 

Ha ha. Allright guys, laughs on me, free drinks at the bar for everyone in a clown suit. I was just hoping to walk down the street to the music store, just like Chu or Herschel, or Dick Wilson did, all those years ago, and pick up a mouthpiece they might have picked out, maybe from one of those high felutin mouthpiece makers I keep reading about here. Not to be. Does that kind of music get sneered at a lot here? Wow.
Many thanks to the sincere posters, though. So far I've bought a King, ordered a Graftonite, and next check will get the Link, downtown.

Dr G, don't give up on the trumpet. This one's for you and Tom. Hope you can stick around til the end to catch what they think might be Bix. So earnest, so sad, so happy, so amazing. Reminds me of Lester's solo on Fine and Mellow when they didn't think he could stand up.

 

Dr G, don't give up on the trumpet.

Nah, I'm down on the trumpet (in the "modern" incarnation) for life. Gimme some Freddie Hubbard and I'm good but the rest of That Stuff... It's no wonder that someone had to come up with the high baffled saxophone mouthpiece - hate them too for what they did to tenor tone.

 

Why not go for the real deal? Not all vintage mouthpieces are overpriced. Look for old Woodwind Co. mouthpieces that read "steel ebonite" from New York. You can get them for well under a hundred bucks on E-bay. To prevent tooth wear and have them last longer, use a mouthpiece patch. You won't even notice the thin clear ones as you play.

 

Why not go for the real deal? Not all vintage mouthpieces are overpriced. Look for old Woodwind Co. mouthpieces that read "steel ebonite" from New York.

Yes, I had one of these. Granted, it was refaced by Phil Barone so was probably no longer capable of vibrato

 

Grumps, thank you. Great tip. It's now on my list. When I googled it I saw Lon Doty played one. Had his Herschel period, that's how I know him. Here I think he's on a MasterLink with the knob on the top. Is that a Chu he's playing? Looks so narrow. Warms the heart to see all those relaxed embouchures, doesn't it? My people.

Mr JL, my thoughts exactly and I bet you got pull, so I'll take the second one cause I sense you really really want get the first; and shake that thing. Go baby. You gotta admit it's kinda ridiculous we fall over ourselves to get their horns but then scorn or destroy their mouthpieces and their way of playing. Like Lester said, there should be room for everyone.

Uncle Pete, et tu Pete'. I thought we were on the same page. You must have got one of those jawbreakers out and got mad you couldn't buzz like a bee on it, and that yes, there is a missing dimension on them things, but not to worry, old JL's gonna get us a mouthpiece, and then we'll be wailing, baby, wailing. Actually I'm honoured you contribute to my thread. You're a pro musician and I'm a guy who plays in his bedroom with his windows and doors shut, and even then the neighbour bangs on the wall and my cat howls at me to shut the fudge up. I like hearing everybody play, but I know exactly how I have to sound. I don't care so much care about 'playing' the sax as singing in the shower cept the shower is the sax to sing through. You need that singing vibrato to do that, man, howsoever you can come up with it, and I doubt it'll be with a clampjaw.