marcus martini

Just bought a marcus martini trumpet off ebay for my wife, it sucks. Poor quality thru out, rough edges, valves drag, black finish not consistent and already wearing in some spots (or else it was a poor finish job to begin with) Personally I wouldnt buy another marcus martini. They're cheap so you get what you pay for. I'm a tenor man and my next horn will be a name brand that stands for quality.

 

I have a black sax with gold keys. the Marcus Martini was made in Taiwan and imported thru New Jersy. The metal on mine is silver and twice as heavy as a brass sax. The silver metal is called nickel/silver. They added nickel to the brass on some of the horns. It gives them a much darker/ mellow tone. I have found out they wemnt out of buisness I dont know when. I also have a Vito by Lablanc which was made it 1986 in Japan by Yamaha. Its acutually the same as a Yamaha Y-23. I would rather play my Marcus Martini. I have been told its a professional horn. I use the vito as a back up

 

OK, well, I am glad you are happy with yours, let's start there.

Then let's also say - you provided some interesting info...a horn from the early 2000's of a brand nobody, today, has ever heard of...and according to what you dug up...it was made in Taiwan.
That's interesting, really it is because by 2000 many Taiwanese factories had gotten their game down on sax fabrication. So it makes sax nerds like myself wonder "I wonder where t came from exactly ? (factory)"

But this stuff:

" I have a black alto with gold keys. The metal on mine is silver and twice as heavy as a brass sax. The silver metal is called nickel/silver. They added nickel to the brass on some of the horns. It gives them a much darker/ mellow tone. "

Regarding the finish imparting a sonic character - I would invite you to stick around the Forum for a while....and maybe do some searches for " finish effect on tone" or some such semantics like that. Then read those threads.

Because, although for whatever reason people still choose to debate this (probably because manufacturers STILL choose to CLAIM this)...the general consensus, when looked upon in a controlled, logical manner...is that sax FINISH does not effect tonality.

So, IF your sax is darker-toned than others you have played, it is because the design specifications of the body, bow, and/or neck are of dimensions, design, etc. which give it a darker tone. Not because it is nickel-silver finish.

Next, you said that it's a black sax you have there. Then you said it's nickelsilver alloy.

Nickelsilver is silvery/nickel colored, not black. So...your finish might be black nickel plate, like a Keilwerth. That would be a plated finish, however, not an alloy mic but plating electroplated ON TO bare brass.

You say that something is added to the brass alloy which makes it nickelsilver alloy. This is so, yup- varying the %ages of copper, zinc, and nickel can create a nickelsilver alloy. Brass on the other hand is usually copper + zinc.
But if your sax is black...and has always been black, that is not because it is nickelsilver alloy (which is not black). It is POSSIBLE it is some sorta black plating plated ONTO a nickelsilver body...but, boy, that would be pretty unusual I think ? Someone can correct me....(?)

So...are you CERTAIN it is pure nickel silver all the way thru ? The only way to confirm this is to actually go at a key or spot on the body or neck very aggressively with a buffing wheel and see if the silvery finish maintains or if after some abrasion....you start seeing brass beneath (which would indicate plating over brass).

But this is still complicated by you saying the color is black...and you probably would NOT wanna do THAT test ...because if it ends up the black would buff off (it probably would, eventually) then you just scarred your finish.

Thirdly, the weight of a horn has a BUNCH of variables, some being : The metal gauge of the body and neck, the weight of the keywork and post mounts, the gauge of the metal of the keys.
So, while it is possible that the finish or alloy can contribute to its weight as well...
the only way you would be able to say that "because of the (nickel silver ?) finish/alloy this sax is Heavier than others"...would be to weigh one of the exact same model in a different finish or alloy (silverplated, bare brass, brass lacquered) and compare the weights.

The fact that one model of one brand of sax weighs more than another model of another brand of sax...could very well be because of, again, different design, different specifications, different metal gauges. Nothing to do with whether the sax metal is of a different alloy or a different finish.

The YAS 23 is a pretty light horn, for example, and of course is brass lacquer with nickelplated keys.

Yet the Conn 24M,for example... is a hecka heavy mo'fo...I mean, one picks one up and immediately says "wha !?"...and it also has brass lacquer finish and nickelplated keys.

So the weight has nothing to do with the metal finish, and probabaly little or nothing to do with or alloy, because I'm a' gonna bet the brass alloy of Conn in the 80's and Yama in the 80's was not dramatically different in composition. It probably has a lot to do with the body metal gauge, the design of the key mechanisms, the metal gauge of the keys, and the construction design of the furniture on the tube which affixes the keys to the body.

Mind posting a photo of yours ? Just out of curiosity...

 

I agree with you. The cork on the screw holding the G# valve closed when playing the Low B and B flat broke off. I had to take it in to be repaired, they are the ones who said the base metal was what is referred to as nickel/silver. The main reason it is heavier then most is the nickel/silver metal is much harder to work with as it is a much denser material. It's hard to see but the black finish is wore off of the bell edge. They are the ones who also said is was a more professional horn.
You are correct the finish does not have anything to do with the sound. The base metal does have a lot to do with it. The denser the material the more mellow darker the sound. As you requested I have attached pics

 

If you use a different mouthpiece and notice that the sound is brighter, is the sound brighter because the base material of the instrument just changed its density?

FWIW, I do agree that a part of a given volume will be heavier if made of a more dense material.

Density = mass/volume

 

I use a Yamaha 6C on My Marcus Martini. The one that came with the LeBalanc Vito(my back up) I have the 6C on the Vito and have not noticed a change in the tone. Yes the tone/sound will change according to the base metal. The denser the material the more dark/mellow the sound/tone

 

You seem to have a very limited range of experience.

For now, I suggest that you don’t believe everything you think. See how your perceptions change as you play different instruments.

 

😅Don't believe everything you think.

To paraphrase an American president speaking about his opposition, "It's not that our friends on the other side don't know anything. It's that so much of what they know isn't so."

HeatherMarie is repeating something a tech told her. She might want to consider that the tech was misinformed by someone.

For HeatherMarie, PeterT and Pale Blue Eyes, we're not picking on you though sometimes newbies do get rough treatment here; it's jus that we've had this discussion over material affecting sound many many times. There are saxophones made of acrylic plastic that sound just like .... a saxophone. There may be some difference picked up by the player but to anyone in the crowd listening, they won't notice the difference between a bare brass sax, a lacquered brass sax, a silver plated brass sax or an acrylic VibratoSax or a plastic Grafton sax.

 

I have played many different horns since I started in 1961. Stopped for the military didn't pick iot back up till 4 years ago. I have played many different horns including a Martin it was borrowed do to mine needing repair during a band concert. I was informed be a very reputal repair shop. I think I have earned the right to speak on saxophones and ,material..

 

It's a celebration of free speech. You have every right to speak out on anything - even though you may be wrong.

Are you willing to hear why your opinions may be incorrect?

You can choose to ignore the conversation if you like. No harm, no foul. People here tend to be passionate about music and saxophones - some even have well-informed opinions and are willing to discuss how they came to their conclusions. As to the sound of a saxophone: The tone is dominated by the internal geometry of the instrument.

 

So what you have there is either black lacq or a black nickelplated finish. By virtue of the fact that the bell wear is showing another color beeneath. So the black has nothing to do with the alloy of the body metal.

You are correct the finish does not have anything to do with the sound. The base metal does have a lot to do with it. The denser the material the more mellow darker the sound. As you requested I have attached pics

It doesn't tho, I was trying to say that. Which is why I suggested you visit the tech section and look up the discussions I noted above.

The thickness of the metal and the metal alloy composition is simply what the body is made of. Unlike guitars or violins/cellos/basses....the tonality of a sax is not determined by 'resonance' of the instrument material. It's determined by the body and neck geometry.

So when you say that your horn plays darker than others...I reiterate...it's not because of the body metal alloy. It's because of the body design.

I have played many different horns since I started in 1961. Stopped for the military didn't pick iot back up till 4 years ago. I have played many different horns including a Martin it was borrowed do to mine needing repair during a band concert. I was informed be a very reputal repair shop. I think I have earned the right to speak on saxophones and ,material..

Heck, everyone has a 'right' to say whatever they want here.

That doesn't mean what you are saying is informed or has a basis. When there has been ongoing debate about this very subject for decades, and you are not aware of that debate or what has been discussed...your conclusion simply coming from the fact that "I have played a fair number of horns and this one sounds different, and the mfr claimed that it was the metal alloy which makes it sound different and I believe that, so there"

...yes it's an opinion, and you are welcome to voice it....but it isn't one which has any research behind it, just your interpretation of what you experienced.

I can pick up a "rose brass" Yani, and compare it to a brass lacquer Buffet and then a Rampone with a sterling silver bell...they will sound different, but not because of the body metal composition.

The only way to PROVE what you feel to be true...would be to playtest yours next to another Martini same model in, say, a brass lacq finish or something . And record it. Then present the recording.

Interesting horn you have there, when you said Taiwan I was expecting it to be a Jupiter stencil but it isn't one of those.

 

The nickel silver was started to be used in saxophones shortly after 1920. I have no idea when it was made, doesn't matter. I wouldn't part with it, the sound that comes from it is phenomenal

 

If the material makes such a difference, then why don’t all saxes made of brass sound the same?

What saxes of the 1920s were made of nickel silver? Yes, nickel plate was sometimes used as a finish, and nickel silver was sometimes used for key work, but I don’t know that many bodies were actually made of nickel silver.

 

Yes, nickel plate was sometimes used as a finish, and nickel silver was sometimes used for key work, but I don’t know that many bodies were actually made of nickel silver.

Me neither, I am a vintage sax nut...for 20 years I have been following and purchasing WAY TOO MANY obscure, odd, vintage saxes that pop up for sale or auction. I actually CANNOT recall EVER seeing or having in my shop a sax or trumpet MADE of Nickelsilver alloy body. Never. Nor can I recall a thread on the 4 different instrument forums I am a member of regarding an example of one.

Nickelsilver keywork yes, nickelsilver plating yes, nickelsilver cymbals (Paiste made them for decades before abandoning them and switching over to Bronze like everyone else)... and bells... yes.

Body alloy ?
I believe they exist, no reason why they wouldn't....

....but it's incredibly uncommon and probably not common for a reason (such as cost or fabrication ease or sourcing or something like that, perhaps something else as well).

 

Ah, I always though that was just plated. Interesting, thx.