If I had to choose between having a really great ear or a really great knowledge of theory, I'd choose the ear. I think it was Duke Ellington who said "all the answers are right there in your living room, in your record collection."

 

You can learn music theory aurally. I'm sure if you spent enough time simply listening and attempting to repeat what you hear you would improve as a player, but you're better off learning some theory even without notation. An example might be to learn all your scales. Notation is mostly helpful for complex arrangements or being able to quickly play something you've never heard before.

Learning theory strictly aurally seems difficult, but it can probably be done.

 

It HAS to be easier than learning it strictly by notation.

 

:lol: no doubt!

 

IMHO, you have to be very talented to learn exclusively by ear.
I always say that the easiest thing to learn in music, is reading, it's all the rest that's hard.
However, if you have dyslexia, that's a different ball game.

 

Like learning to ride a bike...with one arm tied behind your back.

FWIW I picked up an el-cheapo Squier Tele last Wednesday.
Today I am playing major scales in thirds up and down the neck.

I am fortunate to have best of both worlds.

cheers, Mark.

 

Yea man. You will be able to play like a pro (and be one if you want) without formal "Theory"

 

Since you obviously know chords, learn to play the notes of chords on the sax. Typically we do this by playing the chord in an arpeggio. The simplest kind is simply the 1-3-5-8-5-3-1. Now shift to the III but make that one minor. There are endless possibilities. When you are playing a song, use the piano or guitar chart to get the chords and transpose them according to whether you play a Bb or Eb sax. I learned everything this way and don't read worth a crap. That actually is the one thing I would have done differently if I had it to do over if only for being able to sit in with a section and sight read a chart. I love to hear a great sax section but simply went a totally different direction. I listened to records and learned how to play like the guys who did the records. I did have a mentor who got me started on chords and that was one of the most important things I did.
So after you know what the chords are you're supposed to be playing to, you can at least play around with the melody a little bit - then you'll be a jazz man!

 

Here's the thing. It depends on how it is introduced to the student. I mean, the whole notion of "Music Theory" can be very, very intimidating. But a good teacher, or a good teaching book or CD or vid series, can introduce music theory aspects while teaching other aspects simultaneously...so it all becomes quite manageable and digestible.

THIS is the GIFT which a GOOD teacher possesses.

And can be a great example as to why just because someone may be a monster player or an incredible nut at theory, trasnscription, etc. etc. -it may NOT translate whatsoever into being a good teacher.

Regarding the OP's very reasonable question (and I gotta admit I am a little disappointed at some of the snarky replies above - the guy clearly stated he is operating with a particular deficit, yes ?), can one learn theory in an alternative manner which does not rely on reading ?

My answer above stands - a good teacher, when approached with this, can possibly come up with some good avenues. A few of the more helpful respondents to this thread have already touched upon some....

I come across many solid players who did not take the traditional path of learning music, some by choice and some because they simply never were given that option. They sound good. Many are better than me, for sure.

Best of luck to you. Welcome to the Forum.

 

I am a rock guitar player for the most part. I dont generally play with others that read. I am also mostly playing rock on sax. You can learn the way chords are constructed and why certain chords go together. Then flat out memorize the notes in the chords. Just doing that would step up your game.

 

Yes, one can learn how to play the sax even without knowing music theory. It was my experience as I totally rely on my ears when I want to learn a song, but there are disadvantages. In the end, I wish had some basic knowledge of music theory as I think it would make me a better player; on the other hand, the moment I start reading materials on music theory, it only confuses me.

 

Sure. But theory and reading are different. As a kid, I learned to read music, and how to finger the horn to play the notes I saw, but was never taught theory. It was fine as long as all I wanted to do was to play written music (classical, musicals, etc.), but it has seriously limited my ability to improvise or play by ear (along with the fact that I don't like to practice).

You can totally become an excellent player by learning to play by ear, and will be fine playing in many contexts (especially jazz, blues, rock, etc. where playing by ear is the norm); you will have a harder time in contexts where people will expect you to read. And as others say, you can learn theory and apply it aurally.

 

If you want to play classical you have to read. If you want to very rapidly go through a ton of new pieces reading is a must. If you want to build theory there's plenty of exercises to do which can help your ear.

For instruments like the sax I tend to prefer to play things by ear because its just far more useful in general. Get a sound or tune or whatever in your head and reproduce that on your sax. That's making music!

A chording instrument like a guitar or ukulele and even a bass is a little different. On that end I'm a bit frustrated with myself because I would really like to be able to hear a melody and immediately on the fly pull chords out of somewhere to get it arranged. I can do that sort of thing in my head but can't immeditely translate it to where my fingers should go and tend to lose track of what I am doing while screwing around trying to find that sound... there are some phone/tablet apps than can help train you to identify the different types of chords being played by ear (major, minor, V7, dim, aug, etc).

In college I did classical/renaissance stuff (not my major though). Both singing and playing bowed strings I learned to be a monster at sight reading, reading 5+ clefs switching between 2 differently tuned instruments. This is a must for classical consort and chamber music, one instrument per part type stuff. I'm still the backup piano player at church and tend to just sight read when I stand in.

Sorry for the ramble but there's different types of theory and skills and things you can do with them. Playing a single note instrument by ear can get you most of the way there. Reading and theory may open up some unique but hard to find opportunities.

 

If you've been playing string instruments by ear with minimal reading for decades, then you have already a trained ear.

I recommend you get a cheap electronic keyboard and interview teachers, explaining that you want to learn music theory but you have trouble reading. I guarantee you it can be done.

Another thing is that learning theory, I think, would probably involve reading instructional stuff at your own pace at home, in order to transfer it to a keyboard so you can see how the notes line up with each other and hear the sounds of particular chords, and then transferring it to the horn. The "at your own pace" thing may take some of the stress out of this. There's a big difference from reading music notation at speed, which I can see would be a challenge with dyslexia.

I guarantee you that Ray Charles, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Lennie Tristano, Art Tatum, and a number of other well known blind musicians knew music theory without reading the dots.

 

If you've been playing string instruments by ear with minimal reading for decades, then you have already a trained ear.

I recommend you get a cheap electronic keyboard

That.
I started playing (2 years ago) with no more theory than the basics of major chords and got really stuck trying to understand the core ideas people - particularly jazz - use to describe what's going on. A few months ago I got a little electric keyboard and learned (am learning) stuff from YouTube etc. Like minor(s), pentatonics, many chords - with inversions makes voicing ideas really clear! - etc. It really really helpes. Now I sometimes co-learn between the keys and the sax.

I posted about this. No replies. But i think that many many musicians went through these basics quite young and forget where it comes from.

Also. For a hundred quid or so, you get something that can also: blast a metronome through 20-40w speakers, replace a metronome with a rhythm section for practising, record your own practice backing tracks...

 

Stevie Wonder...

 

Yeah, there's one Stevie Wonder and I'd bet this guy ain't him.
You don't want to learn to read or learn theory, why bother with music. Get a tennis racket or something.
Laziness and shortcuts are ok if you're not really striving to be an actual pro musician and are just a hobbyist. I mean, what are you going to practice?
I don't of many that have succeeded at music without putting in the homework.

 

A bass player buddy is heavily involved with United By Music.

A few other local players are mentors in this program too. One of them is blind from birth and plays a LOT of piano/keys. He plays saxophones, drums and harps/harmonicas well enough to lay tracks for his CDs. He can't read music either... so maybe you could find a teacher/coach like him. He would make you hear how harmony works with a single line and tell you why.

In any discipline, there are levels of proficiency in performance and levels of understanding. There a huge stores of information locked in notation. It is hard for me to imagine going through life not being able to read. But I went through some accidents where I had to arrange life where I didn't need to read, drive or work even.

Being able to read notation well enough to understand the circle, key signatures, scales/modes, diatonic chords, cadences, II/Vs, doesn't seem that out of reach. It would unlock a lot of composition and improv knowledge. Being able to read concert scores, sing the parts, or burn through the Charlie Parker Omni-Book in a couple years... seems out of reach however... but what do you want to do or accomplish musically in your life? Are you all of a sudden in a rush to shred the horn??

When I was 11 years old when I first learned the saxophone mechanism. I figured out the 12 diatonic patterns on only knowing and hearing the C and A Minor scale patterns. Same with chromatic, whole tone and pentatonic scales. I for sure knew the finger patterns, before I ever consciously knew the names of all the keys, notes or intervals.

I used to sit in my closet in the dark shedding scales. It made me develop a kind of mental map or matrix of the circle that remains to this day. It's like a frame work to attach all my experience and knowledge on.

My friend showed me how to play simple blues chords, riffs and BB King licks on a 15 buck Stella steel string. I applied all that wrot learning to the horn. In a few months I was doing the same thing on sax that he was doing on guitar... dropping a needle on 45s to rip tunes and solos.

We taught ourselves how to listen and hear. We played in good bands and worked in clubs. It wasn't the symphony or Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Band...

Good luck! Has anybody told you yet that this stuff is not really easy? :mrgreen:

 

You raise two different issues: 1) being able (or not) to read music, and 2) needing to understand music "theory" (I use quotes because it's really a framework, not a theory.) There is this existing body of knowledge about how notes and harmony hang together, and your goal is to absorb enough of that knowledge to play something that seems harmonically acceptable and even entertaining to someone (at least yourself). So the issue is, how are you going to access and absorb this knowledge so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Probably the most efficient (and maybe or maybe not the most effective) is via the written symbol (reading) within the context of established music theory. But just as in how you learned to speak, and just as existed for centuries, there is also an oral (aural) tradition for passing on knowledge. It just might take you a bit longer to figure out how everything hangs together if 1) you can't read and 2) you can't easily access the body of knowledge we call music theory.

For example, eventually you can figure out how to play your scales in all keys by ear, but maybe if you know the "theoretical" construction of a scale, it might be easier to move among keys. And if you could read the notes of the scales, it might be even easier still (putting aside the debate that some people think learning by ear is better/more efficient in the long run - and for me it has been). Same for chords. Same for learning jazz vocabulary. Same for practicing technique.

When I first started, I took the no theory/little reading approach. I learned a few blues and pentatonic scales and played in a rock band for a couple of years and was OK enough in that limited situation. Many years later (after a long long layoff) when I got back to playing I decided I would take the theory/reading approach, and while it took some time up front, it accelerated my learning tremendously overall.

If you have cognitive difficulties with reading music, I would still not abandon the theory part. You can still learn about the theory but shed it on your sax by ear (I actually prefer this approach). And if you get some backing tracks (like iRealPro) you can set up all kinds of harmonic progressions to play your scales, chords, licks, exercises, and tunes against. Jamey Aebersold has a nice backing track for playing major and minor scales over. It helps you to internalize the "theory" while using your ear.

Also, if you can't or don't want to read notes, you should still get comfortable reading chord changes and being able to link them to some notion of theory (i.e., what notes you could play over a set of changes). So when you see a II V I in some key, you at least know what notes (by ear) will sound OK in that key.

Best of luck!

 

Thanks to you all for the input. Ive just come in from doing a gig. I can see how understanding the relationship between chords is so important. I had some fun with duelling with the clarinet player using my old C melody. But I think I will take the advice that trying to find a tutor that can introduce theory in amongst other stuff sounds like a good idea.
We got some good feedback from the gig, so I guess it's only up from here. Many thanks for all the advice.
Cheers
Ray

 

I guess it is the dyslexia part that messes this up. Trouble is that each time I look at notation it looks different. So a quaver B next time I look at it may be a crotchet A. So whether I'm playing sax or guitar, mandolin banjo, it all by ear. That gets me so far but then I run out of ideas. I think that some theory may help exploring new directions.

 

Reading music and knowing music theory are 2 different things. You can read music without knowing a damn thing about music theory. And vice versa – you can understand a lot of music theory without being able to read notes on a page. I learned to read music notation as a child, but all my knowledge of music theory comes from playing in bands for very many years. I haven't needed to read music notation in all that time. You're a gigging musician. You must already know something about music theory. If I understand correctly, you play guitar. You must know something about chords and scales, which notes go with which chords, what a chord progression is, what a major, minor, dominant 7th chord is, etc. That's music theory. You're dyslexic and have great difficulty seeing the notes on the page. You don't need to read music notation to know a ton more about theory. Talk to other musicians, search for some basic theory on the internet. There's a ton of resources out there. If I've got anything wrong here, please correct me. But I think you can learn much of the theory you need by playing and talking with other players.

Edit: can you read chord symbols on a chart or does your dyslexia make that very difficult? I learned a lot of music "theory" simply by learning to read the chord symbols for guitar. I also learned a lot by learning to form all chords on a keyboard. I second the suggestion of getting an inexpensive electronic keyboard. Learn how to form a Bb minor 7 13 chord (and all the other chords) and you're a long way to understanding much of what you need to know about music theory.

 

While I have no problem playing by ear the melody of a song, what I find difficult is how to improvise due to lack of knowledge of basic music theory.

 

"In the end we're all ear players anyway ". ... To quote Greg Fishman.
Not being able to read written music can be a handicap in certain situations. Like trying to play 2nd tenor parts in a big band for instance.
But you can turn this around and make it your strong point in other situations like improvisation. I know some great players who do not read music. Fascinating to hear and see them play.
Knowledge of why and how things work in music is also best learned by ear. With the help from a good teacher preferably.
You can really make this work and become a good player. One of my students was dyslectic too. She was accepted in a jazz program of a conservatory. She chose not to pursue this path but she did get to this level of acceptance. So yes . It can be done. Theory as well.

 

in my band I am the best improviser and the one who has the least experience in theory. The majority of singers don’t read or know any theory but do this exactly the same way.

 

There is a difference between reading music and music theory. Reading music on the sax is the fastest way to learn how to play the instrument. Playing pop guitar, for example, is easier to learn without reading music - at least in the beginning. That is why almost all sax players are musically literate and almost all guitar players aren't. If you can't read music, you can still learn music theory and where the notes are. For almost everyone on just about any instrument, reading music is the easiest part of mastering the instrument. This is true for classical guitar as well. Just some facts, guys.

 

how do singer sing and improvise, on the spot, since very few indeed ever heard of music theory? Whatever I do I do it as a singer does although perhaps not as proficiently as some exceptionally gifted singers.

 

Stevie Wonder knows music theory. He just can't sight read.

 

+1. And that's it in a nutshell. Reading music is a skill that has nothing to do with knowing music 'theory' or, as I prefer to call it, the harmonic structure of music (mi000ke is right, it's not a theory, it's the framework). And, otoh you can probably learn to use your ear to reproduce a riff or lick or melody without any music theory. But if you want to improvise, I think you do need to understand the underlying structure of the tune you are improvising on. The chords, chord progression, and song form. In fact, I'd say playing 'by ear' means you understand all of that at some level.

To answer the question directly, no you don't need music theory to learn to play the sax, but you do need it, at least to some extent, in order to play by ear and improvise effectively. Reading music is something else again; it's the process of reading notes and rhythm off the page; no need to know any music theory to do that.