[DanPerezSax]

That is, we just want the quicker upper air stream to occur. That'll make all sorts of beautiful things to happen.

Such as generate lift? :lol:

I always thought I was weird for playing like this, though it's how I was taught and how I teach. I know it works! It's good to see so many other guys who keep the high tongue position.

 

[toughtenor]

Wow this is an intersting concept. In all my years of playing I never thought about tong position while playing, not did any teacher ever tell me about it.
OTOH, I'm a bit hesitant to try this because I sort of like my tone the way it is..
Question for people who use and/or teach this :
Would you say it makes it easier to play the difficult technical stuff because of the increased air speed ? I mean big leaps over the octave for instance ?
Would you say this works better on any specific sax (tenor alto sop bari) or does it really aply to the one just as well as the other ?

 

[airmouton]

I've been messing around with tongue position, alongside other things, for the past year. My impression is that the tongue itself does very little, HOWEVER, its position has a great impact on the throat and embouchure, which do matter. The tongue rests rather high in the back, like a ski slope as someone said, and it also rests very wide . If you flatten it out or narrow it, you constrict your throat. This seems to have been Joe's point, that anything other than a relaxed tongue position will introduce tension and therefore constriction into the air passage. Trying to "do" something different with your tongue can create problems rather than solve them.

Here's my rule of thumb. Talk through your embouchure (meaning more the oral cavity, tongue/throat position, diaphragm you maintain when playing). Do you sound funny? You shouldn't. (Unless of course you normally talk funny.)

 

[Harry_Stotle]

That is, we just want the quicker upper air stream to occur. That'll make all sorts of beautiful things to happen.

Such as generate lift? :lol:

Yes! Or to increase air speed, so as to generate more air support. And if there is one thing of which we can't get too much, it's air support!

 

[andre251]

i think that whatever the teacher teaches you, as a person that is present at the time, is what you should listen to.
i just hope, that the teacher knows what they are talking about and can lead you on the right path.

 

[drakesaxprof]

This is what we're aiming at, isn't it?

That is, we just want the quicker upper air stream to occur. That'll make all sorts of beautiful things to happen.

I don't think that it's about as much about airfoil (providing 'lift') as much as about simply creating speed by compressing the airflow through a small space at the top of the mouth. The analogy that I use with students is a garden hose. The volume is set by the knob at the spigot (volume of air pushed from the abdomen), while the speed is regulated by the size of the hole at the end of the hose (tongue position). They can be controlled independently, which means that, when playing softly, one can still use a very fast airstream to achieve focus and resonance at an extremely soft dynamic.
As Jim Riggs at UNT used to say, "Airstream Artistry!"

 

[Nefertiti]

Where it get s really confusing is when you tell a student to open up their throat. When most people hear this they drop their tongue down and try to get it out of the way.

 

[SopAlto1]

You guys should check out this guy & what he has to say about tounge position:

http://keithunderwood.org/

I know he's a flute guy, but he really KNOWS whats going on i.e. breath, tounge, mouth, etc.

 

[DanPerezSax]

When I started playing flute I got a whole new appreciation for the tongue position. It's helped my sax playing hugely.

 

[daigle65]

.....They can be controlled independently, which means that, when playing softly, one can still use a very fast airstream to achieve focus and resonance at an extremely soft dynamic.....

Yes, this was a revelation to me when you introduced me to this concept in this thread:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=82527

If you read the whole thing, you'll witness my initial scepticism and my later "conversion".

 

[TJS]

I have been reading a lot about this lately, especially at joeallard.org. What I am not understand is where the tip of the tongue is. If it is close to the hard pallet wouldn't it over the mouthpiece. How does one tongue from that position?

 

[Nefertiti]

If you read my posts.......I say to drop the front of your tongue down and back a litttle bit to play but keep the back still arched in that "eee" position. Everyone who plays this way on this thread has been describing the same thing.

 

[TJS]

Dude, sorry. I saw that several times but it didn't fully click. My bad. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[drakesaxprof]

Yes, this was a revelation to me when you introduced me to this concept in this thread:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=82527

If you read the whole thing, you'll witness my initial scepticism and my later "conversion".

I'm really glad that you are finding the concept useful--responses like that one are why I enjoy participating on the forum.

 

[Harry_Stotle]

That is, we just want the quicker upper air stream to occur.

I don't think that it's about as much about airfoil (providing 'lift') as much as about simply creating speed by compressing the airflow through a small space at the top of the mouth.

I agree!

 

[Frank D]

I admit I was a bit skeptical at first, but this is some fascinating stuff. I'll have plenty to work on for awhile.

 

[pjims]

I'll add myself to the folks who play and teach this way. Jim's posts on this are very good, describe things almost exactly the way I think about it, and are worth checking out. Thanks!

 

[Pgraves]

+ 1
I was lucky enough to take some lessons from Joe Allard. I am convinced of this idea through his demonstrations and the many years of doing the exercises he showed me.
The importance of arched tongue position is discussed and demonstrated on the Allard DVD "The Master Speaks: Joe Allard "

 

[daigle65]

... let your tongue hug the roof of your mouth.....now draw the sides of you tongue ouward so your tongue comes in contact with all of your upper teeth accept the front.....create a seal between you tongue and your upper teeth so your mouth is cut in half by your tongue.....

This wasn't exactly my approach (my tongue wasn't touching the teeth so much), but I've been trying it your way the last few days (on both sax and clarinet) and I've noticed a difference.
Especially yesterday when I played my alto clarinet (that's right, alto clarinet:|), the low register was much more responsive/resonant and the clarion was clearer and singing.

 

[Xulld]

I first started using these techniques unconsciously while whistling.