The tone holes are cut at the factory, typically from my understanding with a rotary cutter for speed of manufacture unless they are rolled.

Old instruments are typically fitted with softer pads to accomodate for said cutting process or possibly that was just the design of the pads (soft), these days most techs and players like a firmer pad and as such we use finer tolerance facing tools than those that were used at time of manufacture

If an owner asked me not to face the tone holes, I would say thanks but no thankyou to the job, I dont provide warranty on work not done to my standards, not facing tone holes is one of those steps - rolled tone holes being excluded from said description

Steve

 

If an owner asked me not to face the tone holes, I would say thanks but no thankyou to the job, I dont provide warranty on work not done to my standards, not facing tone holes is one of those steps - rolled tone holes being excluded from said description

Steve

Thank you . :salute:

Me, too...although I will go further than that: if approached by a client who absolutely insists that any leveling to his RTH's be done sans ANY filing, I would also say "I cannot guarantee that". This is NOT because I am a hack and love to grind a nice RTH....which is something far too MANY people coming across this thread may interpret to be the case given what I just wrote.

It is because, if I want to produce the best job for the customer/buyer, I am going to want the freedom to utilize all methods at my disposal. So...no, that doesn't mean aggressive filing of RTH...but it might well mean, after the 'push-up' method, I do do a tad of subtle finish filing.

Imagine now that you receive a vintage horn for repad and you are asked by the owner NOT to file the tone holes. What would be your options in that case?
Would you simply refuse to repad the horn or would you rather use some special techniques in that case?

You would probably have to warn the owner that:
- Either the repadding cost would be twice as much as your normal rates?
- The horn would not play as well as the one with the perfectly leveled tone holes?

First I'd check the levelness. If all was pretty level, but not perfectly level, I'd say it can be done by shimming or floating/pad pricking/bending to get the seal to work....but it wouldn't be the way I want to do it.
If there were fairly dramatic unlevelness, I'd simply say "no".
So, higher estimate ? No, not necessarily.
But, if I didn't decline the job (which as I suggest above, I probably would), I'd tell them my guarantee is 'off'...meaning: it's all sealing now and plays up and down great, but any subsequent work after they walk out the door would be billable.

Why ? Because, again, customer has insisted I not use tried-and-true methods which in my experience achieves the best result.

Basically....most folks would probably not accept such a caveat ...and go somewhere else...so I guess, in fact, it is a circuitous way of saying to 'em "take it somewhere else".

I'd imagine tonehole filing has been done ever since the instrument has existed, actually...certainly earlier than WWII...

 

Filing tone holes is often more beneficial to the repairer than the client; as the fine line is filed away. Like anything, it can be overdone, mangled or misused. Just be wary of techs who do it as a matter of course, and not a matter of last resort.

 

+1

I don't have any problem with (judicious) tone hole filing, even of RTH's, but it's not like you're trying to achieve an airtight seal against machined steel discs. Standard saxophone pads are assembled from leather, felt and cardboard and, as a result are almost never perfectly flat. Additionally, they are flexible. So, unless the tone holes are severely unlevel (e.g., the result of blunt force damage, rather than small manufacturing flaws), you don't need to level them.

However, starting with a level tone hole undeniably makes the repadding process much easier and faster.

 

So if soft pads are used to repad a horn without addressing tone hole leveling that would be the most valid option?
By the way in our location tone hole filing became popular not earlier than maybe 10 to 12 years ago.

 

Just get a saxophone without pads.

 

I have a Conn 12M in silver, and there are numerous places where the rolled tone holes have been lightly filed. I have had the horn since 1984 and it was that way when I got it (it's easy to see, because there's bare brass and a little flat area), so someone at least was doing it before then.

 

Indeedy. I have seen old repair manuals, talking about from the '50's, perhaps '60's but no later, where tonehole filing is addressed. They used straight, flat files back then, not the rotary diamond type of today. A former member here, Hornfixer ( a senior citizen himself), once photographed the old-school files his dad had used back in the day. They just looked like flat, rectangular hand files. So as Paul was an older gent, and his dad had been a tech before him....this suggests that filing existed quite a while ago, too.

The quote provided by Saxoclese above is from the early 60's and mentions hole filing ('hand-filing").

So this ain't new....

So if soft pads are used to repad a horn without addressing tone hole leveling that would be the most valid option?

One need not use soft-soft pads. Even medium firmness ones can be floated, pricked, shimmed, and/or the keycups bent adequately to get the job done.

But again it depends on HOW unlevel the holes are.

 

I constantly hear from local techs when they pick up a vintage horn with still original pads on: "I had hard time leveling tone holes on this one."

So it was playing "fine" in the old days and now it appears to be so off that it's hard to believe it played at all! And trust me - I'm talking about fine examples, most of which are almost "closet horns".

One issue with vintage horns in particular is that you can get unevenness caused by very fine pitting due to corrosion at the cut surface of the tone hole. Because they are so localized, these pits are insidious and nearly impossible to address using shimming or floating. This is one of the cases in which you essentially must use a file.

 

Good question. This is an excerpt from "The Encyclopedia of Band Instrument Repair" by Frederick Kirschner published in 1962 (often misnamed the Erick Brand Repair Manual)

To properly seat a pad on a saxophone tone hole, we have to have either a level tone hole or suffer through a deep impression in the pad. A new tool for leveling these tone holes has finally come forth on the market. In the past, repairmen have had to use their eyes, their hands and their imaginations to try and set these tone holes to a point whereby their work of seating was at least partly reasonable. Hand filing may bring us close to the truth but can in no measure whatsoever, give us complete accuracy. As a result, these small deviations cause small pinpoint leaks which will, in turn, hamper any decent musician in the performance of his job on this instrument.

The industry has been crying for many years for a design of a tool that would enable us to quickly and efficiently level the tone holes of a saxophone body so that easy pad seating of the same could take place. Your writer has in his possession such a set of tools, completely and effectively designed so that leveling of all of the tone holes of a saxophone body regardless of how bad, becomes a ten-minute operation. It is important that we describe these tools so that the procedure involved in the use of these tools can be properly described. The tools consist of a set of circular files; this tool comes in four sizes. They have adjust pilots that allow them to hold their level in the tone hole socket. Mere overall description of the tool would be to call it a lollypop. The adjustable pilots are set up on a left hand and right hand thread arrangement so that these adjustable pilots can be set to match the tone hole merely by turning the handle of the tool. The perfect set of these pilots is to turn such a handle to such time as a pilot holds firm in the tone hole at which point, we release the handle slightly so as to allow for the fact that all tone holes are not a true concentric. The thumb is placed firmly against the top of the file which, incidentally, is a leveling plate to check the level of the tone hole after it is cut. With the thumb in this position, the handle is moved in quarter turns back and forth. The file teeth set on these tools are milled slots or edges on angles so that no chips can clog a file; as a result, you have no cleaning involved insofar as the use of this tool is concerned. The movement of the hand in this procedure is kept until such time as the tone hole is completely levelled. Checking for the level of this tone hole is done by reversing the file, the back of which is your leveling plate. Since these files come in four sizes, it is necessary to pick the proper size prior to performing the job. The hardness of these tools is 58-62 Rockwell. This, in effect, is to state that these files are so hard that cutting the brass would make it almost impossible for these tools to go dull; therefore, one can simply state that these tools are a lifetime proposition.

This is a good description of the circular files offered by Ferree's Tool with the exception of the adjustable pilot. This concept was employed by Jim Schmidt in the design of his "Diamond Tonehole Files" which were adopted by Music Medic and used under power using a cordless drill. Prior to the use of the rotary files, technicians had to use fine flat files which were difficult to control to keep from "rocking". The photo below shows the tool set I use for tonehole leveling which includes diamond grit files, "tonehole jacks" to raise low areas of toneholes, and laser cut delrin pilots in half millimeter sizes from 10mm to 49.5mm. I use my files "under power" using a Milwaukee electric screwdriver (not shown).

There is no mention of tonehole leveling in "Selmer Repairing Secrets" by Erick Brand published in 1936. Since I do not have a copy of the Erick Brand "Band Instrument Repairing Manual" I can't report on whether that work mentions tonehole filing or not. Perhaps someone with a copy can add that information.

 

The photo below shows the tool set I use for tonehole leveling which includes diamond grit files, "tonehole jacks" to raise low areas of toneholes, and laser cut delrin pilots in half millimeter sizes from 10mm to 49.5mm.

How do the tonehole jacks work?

 

I've seen those "jacks" before and I'm skeptical about them. Their contact area is quite small.
I suspect it's easy to push the tone hole wall down under the fulcrum while applying the raising force on the opposite side with the steel rod.

By the way, I'm mentioning for the third time here a man who started a thread here some time ago about using "no filing" method to level the tone holes. I'm not sure about his exact techniques but he didn't accept any form of filing and tried to convince everyone that it's always possible to level tone holes with the "raising rod technique".
Actually there are two actions involved in that "no filing technique":
- Raising low spots up with the rod
- Tapping high spots down with the disc
There was a video on YT where a tech shows how he levels Conn rolled tone holes with the above two techniques. (I found it, it's below)
So the man I'm mentioning was trying to convince everyone that he uses the same technique for leveling ALL tone holes - rolled and not.

 

I've seen those "jacks" before and I'm skeptical about them. Their contact area is quite small.
I suspect it's easy to push the tone hole wall down under the fulcrum while applying the raising force on the opposite side with the steel rod.

I have used this tool and technique with success for nearly 20 years. Because the tonehole insert spreads the downward pressure over a larger surface area the chance that the tonehole on that side is pushed down is quite slim. Even if that should happen it may bring the higher area down to better match the low area that you are trying to raise. The combination of lifting and tapping down is what I refer to as leveling a tonehole by "mechanical means". I do this on every tone hole that needs more than just a "touch" of the rotary file to be perfect. After the tonehole is made as perfect as possible by lifting and tapping the diamond grit "file" just adds the finishing touch.

Another advantage of perfectly flat toneholes that has yet to be mentioned is the stability and dependability of the pad installation when it is done to the highest level with quality materials. The stability and dependability of the overhaul actually benefits the client more than the repair tech who will see the instrument less often unless there is a mishap.

 

I'm not sure how long tone hole filing has been done, but filing, sanding, lapping, scraping or any other method of removing some metal to make a part flat has been in existence probably long before metal instruments with tone holes existed.

Obviously any sensible repairer (or person) would consider the situation before filing a tone hole. In reality there is rarely a reason to not file (non-rolled) tone holes flat.
Especially with drawn tone holes where they end up ridiculously higher than they need to be, factories are milling and filing them down. I don't see why it makes to anyone that it's ok for the factory to remove several millimeters or the tone hole, but not for a repairer to essentially finish the job for them by filing maybe a few hundreds of a millimeter more.
Factories use very aggressive methods of either a cutter larger than the tone hole, or a mill going around the rim. Some factory videos show them finishing by hand filing slightly after that too.

People like to say to file tone holes as a "last resort". Yeah... sure... you could say it is the last resort... but more often than not there is no logical resort before that. There is simply no problem with filing e.g. 0.02mm off a tone hole to make the whole thing much better. It's like saying grinding and scraping the ways of a lathe is a last resort... in a way it is, but it is the standard method. Just like on a saxophone, or any tool, a good repairer can assess when removing the metal would be problematic and in those cases consider other approaches. In reality those are the exceptions.

FWIW in about fifteen years of doing this and much longer from good repairers I know, I've seen zero problems to any instruments or players (from beginners to the highest level performing all over the world... except now).

 

There are times when I do not level toneholes when installing pads. These include doing a low budget "play condition" on a student instrument, and doing a quick "out the door" emergency pad replacement where time is of the essence. On overhauls when the instrument is stripped and mechanically restored making toneholes flat is an integral part of the process the same as cleaning, dent removal, key straightening, and key fitting.

I find it interesting that some players still argue against making every detail of a saxophone overhaul perfect. A reason for not filing toneholes often given is that there have been a few inexperienced or incompetent persons who have over filed some toneholes leaving little of the walls left---therefore no one should file toneholes ever. The same argument is common about buffing a saxophone where some inexperienced, incompetent, or careless person has buffed too close to toneholes leaving them wavy---therefore no one should buff saxophones ever. If one does not have confidence in the skill, competence, and professionalism of the tech they take their saxophone to for repair then by all means they should find someone else who meets those criteria and trust that tech's professional judgement. To me it makes no sense whatsoever to go to a repair professional of that caliber and insist they do less than their best quality work.

 

I find it interesting that some players still argue against making every detail of a saxophone overhaul perfect. A reason for not filing toneholes often given is that there have been a few inexperienced or incompetent persons who have over filed some toneholes leaving little of the walls left---therefore no one should file toneholes ever.

I personally have no problem with tone hole filing, even in the case of RTH. However, I think that part of the rationale for being conservative with respect to filing tone holes has to do with the (potentially unknown) history of the instrument being repaired.

If you're repairing a relatively new instrument, or a vintage instrument that still has a factory original setup, then there's no real problem; go ahead and do what you normally would. However, if you're dealing with, say an old Conn 10M warhorse that's been through many repairs and/or overhauls, including some by repairmen that may not have been as judicious in their use of the file, then filing can be a real concern.

 

You can also build drawn tone holes up and then file them down if you so wish, many ways possible to achieve a flat surface to seat a pad onto

 

Now you have piqued my curiosity. Can you describe how you would do this?

 

Any self respecting saxophone technician will assess the physical characteristics of the saxophone body which may impact upon the levelness of a saxophone's tone holes prior to engaging in rectification. Body work is a very viable method - even in part - for levelling tone holes - rolled or otherwise.

 

Yes, true of course.

1. The myth that vintage saxes used soft pads is just that. Most American saxes used thin pads and judging by the amount of great playing documented on these horns indicates they worked pretty well. Pretending that Selmer, SML, Buffet and other French instruments which used .185s were marshmallows is just nonsense. That's why no one ever bought or used those Mark 6s and why they are so cheap now :glasses1:

There is a difference between thickness and firmness and they don't necessarily have anything to do with each other. Sure, if everything is the same, thicker means softer, but even that is sometimes negligible (extreme example, consider 4mm of steel and 5mm of the same alloy steel, you wouldn't really able to tell the difference in hardness). Many of those USA made saxophones did originally have very soft pads, regardless of their thickness.

2. That most players want hard pads is self fulfilling. Most players want their instrument to work, be leak free and relatively quiet. I doubt the average player would notice the difference between soft feel pads and harder ones.

Yes. Unlike some groups or forums on the internet might suggest, by far most players don't really care about those things at all (and that includes players of all levels, from beginning students to the best soloists performing all over the world... except now they don't ).

3. Unless there is clear, compelling evidence that there has been damage, leveling tone holes will create a change in the geometry of the keywork requiring it to be manipulated to line up with the altered surface.

True in theory but incorrect in any practical sense. The amount usually filed is smaller than the thickness of glue can be controlled. If you are leveling a pad by floating, that is already much more movement and the filed tone hole would have completely irrelevant change. It's like putting a tiny feather on a weight that is 95kg to 100kg.

Unfortunately, it seems some techs have adoptd the Goodson method - get as much money from the customer as you can. Once you start filing and bending, those costs go up and one is assured of return trips to readjust those metal pieces returning to their original shape via that memory thing brass does.

Can't comment on the "Goodson method" but regardless, many repairer absolutely don't file and bend to add cost. In fact these methods are often more accurate and lower costs because they also faster. That is why most instruments companies use them (like Selmer, Yanagisawa, Yamaha, Conn, are among those who file tone holes and bend keys when adjusting saxophones).

I used separate paragraphs so that y'all can attack the comments individually. Have at it.

Thank you for using the enter key but please notice that I'm not "attacking" anything. I agree with a lot of what you posted, but have point out where some of the claims are just incorrect, and give a distorted view on repairers who use those very good and viable methods and the methods themselves.

 

A fee quick comments:

1. The myth that vintage saxes used soft pads is just that. Most American saxes used thin pads and judging by the amount of great playing documented on these horns indicates they worked pretty well. Pretending that Selmer, SML, Buffet and other French instruments which used .185s were marshmallows is just nonsense. That's why no one ever bought or used those Mark 6s and why they are so cheap now :glasses1:

2. That most players want hard pads is self fulfilling. Most players want their instrument to work, be leak free and relatively quiet. I doubt the average player would notice the difference between soft feel pads and harder ones.

3. Unless there is clear, compelling evidence that there has been damage, leveling tone holes will create a change in the geometry of the keywork requiring it to be manipulated to line up with the altered surface.

Finally, when a THC tells you that the tone holes must be leveled without seeing the instrument or somehow - as some here demonstrate - that their way is the "right" way, that's a cue to head for the door.

Unfortunately, it seems some techs have adoptd the Goodson method - get as much money from the customer as you can. Once you start filing and bending, those costs go up and one is assured of return trips to readjust those metal pieces returning to their original shape via that memory thing brass does.

(I used separate paragraphs so that y'all can attack the comments individually. Have at it.)

 

A fee quick comments:

1. The myth that vintage saxes used soft pads is just that. Most American saxes used thin pads and judging by the amount of great playing documented on these horns indicates they worked pretty well. Pretending that Selmer, SML, Buffet and other French instruments which used .185s were marshmallows is just nonsense. That's why no one ever bought or used those Mark 6s and why they are so cheap now :glasses1:

)

I would not know about "most" saxes. But I have had a couple of saxes (Conn C mels) that were very old and had what I heard were original pads.

These pads were thick, white (dulled off to greyish), and soft. They were spongy, cottony, puffy, pillowy, what you will. Perhaps they were a custom job for the guys who had them before me. But I took them for originals and my tech said they were, and such was the style long ago.
Perhaps also they had broken down, although they did not look it. They just looked like thick, soft, cottony felt.

This is only a couple of saxes, so I would not put too much stock in this experience. But perhaps, like all myths, this sort of thing is the underlying basis for it.

 

Anyone who has worked on, repadded, or overhauled saxes from the 20's, 30's, and 40's with original pads can attest to the fact that they exhibit deep seats which is indicative of softer felt underneath. In fact the only way the Buescher "Snap-On Pads" could possibly work by just removing the old pad and "snapping" a new one in without leveling or "floating" the pad on a bed of shellac is because of the softer felt and the player using enough finger pressure to form a deep "seat".

When I worked in the repair shop of a music store there was a large box filled with hundreds if old saxophone pads that were part of a "buy out" of a repair shop that had been around for years. One of my "apprentice punishment" assignments was to go through all the pads in the box to see if any were usable or salvageable. Most of the pads had either a rivet in the center or no rivet at all. Many were old enough that the leather was "stitched" in the back rather than glued. All of the pads had very soft felt.

One possible exception to the softer vintage pads would be the Conn Res-O-Ring pads. These were constructed with the leather stretched tightly over a metal ring much like a drum head. These pads were designed to be used with the rolled tone holes that Conn developed and were designed to not take a "deep seat" like earlier pads.

The highest quality saxophone repair work done with attention to every detail takes more time and therefore costs more. In my own professional repair experience I make a lot more money doing dozens of $75 student level play conditions that I make doing one professional overhaul taking about the same amount of time. I know other techs who have shared the same experience.

 

I have never met a professional repair tech who files toneholes "as a matter of course" whether they need it or not. That would be ridiculous. I would not want such a person to work on my saxophone either. I also don't want to be put in the same category as that person by the "broad brush" used by some in these discussions.

 

Part of the issue here is that techs who post on SOTW are probably at the top of the field (they have enough interest in the subject to engage with random members of the internet), so they probably communicate with other quality professionals and aren't aware of the full universe of people out there who are claiming to repair saxophones.

On the other hand, the ordinary sax player with signficant time on the planet has probably dealt with a number of below par repair people. My standard story is about the guy who stole all the little set screws off my Conn tenor when I took it in to have a couple pads replaced, then told me "they aren't necessary" (well, if they aren't necessary, then why the blanky-blank did you feel the need to steal all of mine?). That same tenor had a low C tone hole that had (before I had it) been filed down till the roll was just a little wire burr around a fraction of the rim. I have also gotten instruments back totally unplayable (there was the clarinet repad where every single pad leaked, even the normally closed ones). For years every tech in the north Texas area would set up 1 and 1 Bb so the bis pad didn't quite closed, on the basis that "you aren't supposed to use that fingering" and that it made high G a bit easier to play. Didn't matter what you told them, when you got the horn back you were going to have to adjust that fingering to work.

Even discounting ill intentions, a steady diet of student horns with the instruction to "get it kind of playing for the very minimum possible cost" is likely to bleed over to non-student jobs in a sloppy quick and dirty approach except for the very most conscientious. Add to that the disdain for anything that isn't a Selmer that still infects so many in the saxophone world, and you can see why some of us have a jaundiced view of anyone until conscientiousness, care, and respect for the importance of our instruments to us is proven by experience.

The guy who says "get out of my face and don't tell me how to do my job" may be a highly skilled person who truly knows his stuff and really should not be bothered. Or he may be a jerk hack who wants to slapdash your job as quickly as possible. You can't always tell the difference till you have direct experience.

 

Part of the issue here is that techs who post on SOTW are probably at the top of the field...

Oh, I don't know about that. Some techs are busy working on horns. :lol:

...and come on now. That's funny. It's a joke for cryin' out loud.

 

I would suspect that the majority of saxophone players on this forum who strongly object to "tonehole" filing or leveling have never actually seen it done in person or observed the process firsthand to discover exactly what it involves. Expressions like "defile my instrument" and "grinding toneholes" indicate there is a certain degree of misperception or misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting those who repair professionally know everything, in fact I learn something new on every saxophone I repair. I'm just saying that first hand "professional" experience should carry a bit more weight than "I read on the internet" or "some guy told me".

That aside, with regard to the topic of this thread, I discovered an excellent article in the NAPBIRT bi-monthly magazine written by the late George Jameson one of the finest techs in the business and a close fried of Arthur Benade entitled "Leveling Toneholes - An Oral History". I just a minute ago got permission from NAPBIRT general manager Bill Mathews to reprint as much of the article as I like. Since this thread has turned into a debate about leveling toneholes, I have started a new thread on this topic for those interested in the repair history without all the "baggage" of this one. https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt....php?371132-Leveling-Toneholes-An-Oral-History&p=4119176&viewfull=1#post4119176

 

i would suspect that the majority of saxophone players on this forum who strongly object to "tonehole" filing or leveling have never actually seen it done in person or observed the process firsthand to discover exactly what it involves. Expressions like "defile my instrument" and "grinding toneholes" indicate there is a certain degree of misperception or misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting those who repair professionally know everything, in fact i learn something new on every saxophone i repair. I'm just saying that first hand "professional" experience should carry a bit more weight than "i read on the internet" or "some guy told me".

That aside, with regard to the topic of this thread, i discovered an excellent article in the napbirt bi-monthly magazine written by the late george jameson one of the finest techs in the business and a close fried of arthur benade entitled "leveling toneholes - an oral history". I just a minute ago got permission from napbirt general manager bill mathews to reprint as much of the article as i like. Since this thread has turned into a debate about leveling toneholes, i am going to start a new thread on this topic for those interested in the repair history without all the "baggage" of this one.

super!

 

For those not familiar with the tools most techs today use to flatten toneholes I would like to share some information from a repair tech's perspective:

The rotary diamond grit "tonehole files" many techs now use are not actually files in the traditional sense. They are more like "diamond grit" sandpaper. See: Jim Schmidt Diamond Abrasive Tonehole Files They are flat brass discs that are "faced" with what is sometimes called a "polka dot" diamond surface not unlike the diamond stones used to sharpen knives and cutting tools. They were first developed and introduced by JS Engineering, I suspect partly due to the fact that the Schmidt gold pads are very firm and flat and therefore are unforgiving on uneven toneholes.

Some techs rotate them on top of toneholes with pressure using the handle pictured with the set sold by Jim Schmidt. In the Music Medic Pro Shop they are sometimes rotated under power using an electric drill. Arthritis in my hands made it difficult for me to hold a cordless drill in the air for extended periods of time, so I tried my light weight Milwaukee electric screwdriver and found it to be perfect for the application. It has low power, low speed of rotation and is light weight permits the "file" to be used with maximum control and no more pressure than the weight of the brass disc itself. The second photo shows a closeup of the "diamond grit" with circles depicting the amount of surface area that contacts the top of the tonehole, depending upon its size.

A fact that bears mentioning is that when done properly the entire circumference of the tonehole isn't "filed" or sanded---just those areas that are high. It is also important to note that the "high areas" of a tonehole where material is removed are generally no more than .001" A human hair can be 2X that thickness. A post-it-note is about 4X that thickness. If a saxophone player doesn't want his toneholes "filed", or believe in "filing toneholes" that is his prerogative. I personally believe that conclusion is more realistic when based upon "facts" rather than on "heresay", "conjecture" and other forms of "misinformation".

 

I have seen Matt Storher's video on that topic and his explanation and demonstration are quite clear as are all of his videos. If I remember correctly he does not turn the diamond circular file under power. Instead he turns it by hand. He also sometimes moves them by hand back and forth like a traditional flat file. Like Music Medic and others whose clinics and workshops I have attended I rotate the files "under power". In my experience it is not "overkill" to do it using this method, nor does it remove too great an amount of material. Most techs I am acquainted with and familiar with their work find methods, materials, and techniques that work for them and few if any are identical.

 

Wow this topic again, lol. Been away a long time now. So do you want your horn to play well and be stable, do you wan to be able to play with a light touch, if yes, then make sure your tech levels every freakin tone hole on you horn, tightens up the key work, levels all the key cups uses good quality materials, fits the neck tenon, aligns the posts, centers the cups, and deals with anything else that needs to be addressed, there are no shortcuts to doing this well. This is not rocket science, but it does require a certain level of skill, patience and meticulousness to be done well. If you skip any of these things, then your horn will not play to its full potential, ever. You may be use to playing on a ****, many people are, and think that because a instrument plays better that your own, or some hacks repair plays great that the job was done right, but if any of those fore mentioned steps were not taken, then you are just not going to get the best out of that instrument. Instruments need to have everything tight to be stable and play well consistently. That said, it does not mean that you just stick a file on a drill and start grinding, you will find that after the body is straight, and the posts aligned and dents removed, that many tone holes will be in better shape than when you started. So after all of that, now you need to go over each tone hole and see whats up, if there are high or low spots address these issues, then finish off with dressing the tone hole, but only after getting it as close to level as possible, to avoid removing any more material than necessary. And the idea that leveling tone holes saves a tech time is absurd! Really? It can take a bit of time, to do properly.

 

SAXDADDY SHOWED UP

And the idea that leveling tone holes saves a tech time is absurd! Really? It can take a bit of time, to do properly.

Yep ⬆

I'll have to post as well, then. Pardon me if I step on any toes, I did not read the entire preceding thread, which is just bad manners on my part.

Here is a photo of a pristine 1932 Conn 6M transitional G# tonehole that was filed flat at the factory. It is not uncommon to see the G# filed a bit at the factory on old Conns of that era. I would never ever do this myself, but Conn did it when the benefits outweighed the downsides according to their thinking, and they built them. I can see why they'd do it on the G#, anyhow, where pressure can't overcome an unlevel pad as easily. But they were convinced (and so, increasingly, am I) that the shape of the tonehole edge had a lot to do with how the instrument responded, and they developed a whole unique type of pad to make the unlevelness of the rolled tonehole a non-issue for factory pad jobs where time is of the essence (the res-o-pad). So I leave them, and I've learned to do decent padwork with my chosen pad on rolled toneholes that are not level, even when the body is perfect. Rolled toneholes with a smoothly rolled, rounded and unfiled shape are what make a Conn a Conn, IMHO.

And for interest's sake, here is the burr that develops on the inside of the tonehole when you file it being peeled off. I finish my toneholes with worn out 1000 grit sandpaper nowadays and make the toneholes not just flat but the edges smooth with a verrrrry slight chamfer, but I try to keep tonehole filing to a minimum. I did notice a difference overall when I started taking care of the burr after it was pointed out to me that it existed on this very forum probably a decade or more ago, lending some credence to the idea that the shape of the tonehole edge has a lot to do with response (just kidding, that anecdotal evidence will convince nobody).

That said, if they did it right at the factory, or if it wasn't further buffed to **** during a relacquer, it wouldn't be needed. But I've seen it done at factories in person and in old videos and talked to old-timers and the fact is at the factory they go really fast, really far, and under a decent bit of physical pressure to do it quickly, and it is common that the body deforms, creating a springback effect that ends up with a north-south high spot. This is a known issue, and you can see on the benches of some finishing technicians in various factory photos and videos from ancient times to the present day some manual rotary files for final dressing in a pinch. In fact, one of Selmer (Paris)'s modern improvements is a CNC-controlled tonehole leveling procedure, which seems to actually be pretty good, most of the time.

In my experience once they are truly flat they stay that way, barring damage.

Of course, in practice a tonehole is never leveled more than the thickness of a sheet of paper, which is on the extreme end. Once the horn is straight and de-dented, if that was done well (and that is a big if) and if the leveling is done judiciously by an expert who has proper respect for the one-way change they are performing (a really big if) and if the horn was made well in the first place (there's another big one), anyhow.

 

The question to me is not 'why do it at all' but simply that a tech should at least do some measurements before 'leveling' a tone hole. Does he know how many times it has been done it the past? Does he know if the tone holes have ever been lifted? If the factory standard measurements for tone hole heights are not known or are not available, and if you do not know the complete history of the horn, you cannot just decide to level all the tone holes. Particularly on valuable horns that have been out there for many years and are precious to their owners. If there is a tone hole rim that needs a 'spot repair' in order to play properly, that's a different thing, but it would have to be pretty bad not to be handled by the original-type pads. There are limits to how short you can make the tone holes and still retain the artistic nuances in a great horn.
If the tone holes were 'leveled' in a previous overhaul and the sax has suffered no damage since, there should be no reason to do it again when all that is needed is the rims to be cleaned. There are many liquids that can be put on a cotton swab to clean the rim of any kind of build-up.
Any time you are thinking of using any kind of abrasive or cutting instrument/material on a sax, think twice.
Then there's the question of thin pads. Who doesn't know that a sax was designed for certain pads, to make the pad strike the tone hole level? So when you go significantly thinner, the front edge of the pad will strike first unless the pad is shimmed-out or 'floated'. Hopefully nobody would ever consider bending all the keys to correct for using the wrong pads. So what is accomplished by using the thin pads if you have to shim them out to keep the geometry?
Bah, humbug. The whole subject of tone hole leveling and thin pads make me sick.

 

There are basically 2 thicknesses of pads that are commonly used today .185" and .160". Some of the older domestic makes and models were designed for the .185" pads. Most Selmer Paris saxophones, saxes made in Taiwan, and Japan and other European saxes are designed to use .160" pads. When "dry fitting" .160" pads I take note of how light they are in the back and use that to estimate the thickness of the layer of shellac I apply to the back of the pad. The advantage of installing a pad on a bed of shellac is that the key cup can be heated and the pad can be adjusted and manipulated to achieve a perfect seal with light key pressure without having to bend the key cup. Most of the key bending occurs when someone is trying to make thick pads work in a sax designed for thinner ones.

Brass is not a hard, rigid material and over time very slight changes take place to the body tube and bell just from the sax going in and out of the case, and holding, playing, and carrying the saxophone. These slight changes can show up in changes to the levelness of the toneholes, and in the key fit. Part of my job in the repair shop of a music store was to unpack new saxophones, let them sit a while and then go through them to adjust and regulate them to play their best. One would be amazed at how much changes from the factory after being shipped to the dealers. It was not uncommon to have to level toneholes and fit keys---even on brands with a good reputation for quality control when they are manufactured.

 

Matt showed up!!