As the title suggests, I'm having a problem with the way I sound on soprano. I play on a selmer series 3 and, on the recommendation of my band teacher, play on a selmer c*. I am fed up with sounding like an oboe with a really nasally tone. Some people have even said it sounds like a duck. Can anyone help me?
Help! I sound like an OBOE!!!
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So many sop saxes/players sound a bit like oboes that I think we need to give in and admit that this is the way they sound.
The player is the biggest factor on the sound and there are several good ideas above on what you can work on. These are low in cost but will take a lot of practice time. Sop sax is a beast and you do need to pay your dues on it.
Using an alto mouthpiece on soprano will make all the notes flat due to the larger chamber volume. If you can jam it on far enough to tune the mid range, then the high notes will most likely be sharp and/or the low notes flat.
Most soprano mouthpieces sold today use a squeeze throat design. This is the best design IMO for intonation on sop sax. But the small throat does add a bit of brightness to the sound. Not as much as a high baffle (avoid these). Vintage stubby large chamber designs will sound darker on sop and less oboe-like. These can be pricey though. I also find they make the palm key notes sharp and you need to develop muscle memory to flatten those notes (lip them down in pitch).
Caravan and Rascher mouthpieces are throwbacks to the stubby large chamber designs. But I have never seen one with a decent facing on them and the tip openings are very closed. Getting one of these or a vintage Buescher or Buescher blank refaced is a relatively low cost way to get a good stubby mouthpiece.
Last, and most expensive, is your choice of sax. Vintage saxes like Conns or Bueschers sound darker. Some curved sop saxes sound darker but my 1926 straight Conn is darker than my modern curved Musica. I use a Vandoren S25 on the Conn.
The player is the biggest factor on the sound and there are several good ideas above on what you can work on. These are low in cost but will take a lot of practice time. Sop sax is a beast and you do need to pay your dues on it.
Using an alto mouthpiece on soprano will make all the notes flat due to the larger chamber volume. If you can jam it on far enough to tune the mid range, then the high notes will most likely be sharp and/or the low notes flat.
Most soprano mouthpieces sold today use a squeeze throat design. This is the best design IMO for intonation on sop sax. But the small throat does add a bit of brightness to the sound. Not as much as a high baffle (avoid these). Vintage stubby large chamber designs will sound darker on sop and less oboe-like. These can be pricey though. I also find they make the palm key notes sharp and you need to develop muscle memory to flatten those notes (lip them down in pitch).
Caravan and Rascher mouthpieces are throwbacks to the stubby large chamber designs. But I have never seen one with a decent facing on them and the tip openings are very closed. Getting one of these or a vintage Buescher or Buescher blank refaced is a relatively low cost way to get a good stubby mouthpiece.
Last, and most expensive, is your choice of sax. Vintage saxes like Conns or Bueschers sound darker. Some curved sop saxes sound darker but my 1926 straight Conn is darker than my modern curved Musica. I use a Vandoren S25 on the Conn.
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With all due respect, this old wive's tale about the soprano saxophone being a beast needs to be retired.
Yes, many, but not most, soprano players have an "oboe-type" sound. Primarily I believe this is because they either don't care to change the sound they got immediately (mostly due to the horn and mouthpiece AND the way they deliver air into the horn) or because they like the sound they have, so why change.
Like anything, putting in a serious effort yields results.
But to say playing the soprano sax is inherently more difficult than any other saxophone is just not true.
It's just that you can't hide when you play soprano. It's presence is known immediately. Perhaps that makes it more "dangerous" to play, in a certain way, but not more difficult.
IMO, the alto is the most challenging sax to play, meaning to have a personal and complete voice on. Again, putting in a serious effort is the answer to that challenge.
Happy St. Patrick's Day, everyone.
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Yesterday, I was re-visiting recordings (LP's, so that sure dates it) I'd made in the 1980's using a MKVI soprano. I hadn't listened to them in a long time and had forgotten just how oboeish I sounded at that time, at least through studio recording mics. Over the years, I opened up my tip-openings and softened my reeds (and changed horns several times) to a point where my sopranos now sound like saxophones.
I agree with Joe that soprano difficulties are a myth. Much depends on one's inner voice and from where the player began. Break in on big saxophones and you may struggle a bit with the smaller ones. Break in on soprano (like I did) and the larger saxophones are a struggle. DAVE
I agree with Joe that soprano difficulties are a myth. Much depends on one's inner voice and from where the player began. Break in on big saxophones and you may struggle a bit with the smaller ones. Break in on soprano (like I did) and the larger saxophones are a struggle. DAVE
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+1 on Joe and Dave! Any horn will be difficult if you don't put the necessary time in. There's no such thing as instant gratification mastering a musical instrument....
And if you sound like an oboe and you don't want to, well just stop sounding like one. Figure out how you DO WANT to sound and work towards that sound.
And if you sound like an oboe and you don't want to, well just stop sounding like one. Figure out how you DO WANT to sound and work towards that sound.
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I have an extremely satisfactory warm sound on soprano with a Vandoren V5-S15 mouth piece and V16 2,5 reeds. Work like a charm for me on soprano, although I am not happy with the reeds on alto...
Please bear in mind that everyone's embouchure is different, and that your C* may not be among a good batch (luckily enough my alto one was). You may try something like long tones to improve and strengthen your embouchure. I would also suggest that you try harder reeds; moving from a 2 to a 2,5 gave me a much warmer, less shrill and oboe-like sound.
Hope this helps.
Yamaha Junkie
Please bear in mind that everyone's embouchure is different, and that your C* may not be among a good batch (luckily enough my alto one was). You may try something like long tones to improve and strengthen your embouchure. I would also suggest that you try harder reeds; moving from a 2 to a 2,5 gave me a much warmer, less shrill and oboe-like sound.
Hope this helps.
Yamaha Junkie
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IMO there are two completely different routes you can take with the alto and both are considered legitimate by most music-makers:
1) The "smooth jazz" sound (i.e. David Sanborn, etc).
2) A more tenor-like traditional sound.
Why don't we have the same attitude towards soprano options? Or do we, and an oboe-ish sound isn't one of them?
Another thing you could do is listen to listen to a variety of instrumentalists. Do not only listen to saxophone also listen to flutes clarinets oboes trumpets violins and try to match your tone to theirs when you are doing long tones or vibrato exercises. For example, listen to the way violinists do vibrato and oboes do vibrato it's quite different. different timbres and different colors.
Thanks, Since starting this tread so long ago, I have done many of the things that you said and done a lot more listening. I also realized that a soprano is going to stick out at least a little bit. You can not blend with anything unless you allow yourself to be slightly more of a lead part. Meaning that you need to play with confidence. Also, I settled on a pomarico crystal mouthpiece to play on. The clarinet like internals have contributed to my now pleasant tone.
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This is a very instructive post (with exception of I won't even wade into the "soprano is beast" debate... who knows? All saxes are pretty beastly for me to play well...).
After thinking about what Mojo says here, I understand more where I've been in my struggle to play soprano well... part of which has been trying to lose the obonium tonium... and then wondering if that's really what it is... and, if so, is it really all that bad, or wrong... and maybe it's supposed to sound that way...
It's mainly present in the low tones.
Anyway, at this point I've "learned to like it", at least for classical pieces. It seems proper there, albeit an acquired taste, for me.
In other styles, I still on the whole endeavor to develop out of it, and I think Mojo is right that the larger-chamber, less squeeze pieces tend to mellow the sound.
I don't want to try to find, buy, and mess around with old Conn or Buescher pieces. And I may need to mess around less, as I have an old Conn which does I think have a rich and more mellow character. But I think a few other things are also helping me:
1. Joe's soprano planet Missing Link is I think a middle ground between big fat old chambers and squeeze-throat pieces. Mine is a fairly close tip, so maybe a more open one would make it a bit easier to get the oboe out? If so, no doubt it's a trade-off with other ramifications... of course.
2. Harder reeds, and certain reeds... I'm guessing that, say, Rico Royals might make it harder for a player to lose the oboe. I'm using LaVoz and V12. LaVoz seem more free-blowing and lively but still without the oboe edge. V12s are even more mellow, less oboe, and they last a long time! But they're less consistent and harder to sound the low tones without some woodworking. Rico Reserves had a good sound too but they didn't last long... fragile tips.
3. Tone/wind/chops development... the fundamentals any player needs, on any of the saxes... needed for this challenge as much as any.
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I mentioned that Conn and Buescher sop saxes are more mellow. I was not talking about mouthpieces in that sentence.
Update: I did recently measure decent Rascher S, A, and T mouthpieces. A client wanted them changed some but they were not defective IMO.
Update: I did recently measure decent Rascher S, A, and T mouthpieces. A client wanted them changed some but they were not defective IMO.
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Right. Understood thanks Mo
Yeah but I think there's truth to the other thing you said: "Vintage stubby large chamber designs will sound darker on sop and less oboe-like." My piece ain't a squeeze job. It's not a fat stub job either, but I think it's helping mellow the sound, without jacking up the tuning on this Conn (you need all the help you can get with these horns) much.
And teh tone I get from the old Conn is in line with what you're saying... can't compare it with Selmer, Couf, Yani or any newer horns... but if it can help me... ME! for cryin out loud... get a pretty nice sound, I think we can at least say these horns are pretty freakin all right.
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Some water has passed under my bridge since this thread was active.
First of all, I discount any allegations that the horn matters in our tonal search. Just yesterday, I played all of my sopranos (two Mark VI's ['59 and '72], one '26 Martin, one '27 Conn NWII, and a curved bronze Yanagisawa). You know what comes next - they all had similar tonal qualities and I'd defy anyone listening from behind a wall or other obstruction, to identify one from the other. So, I don't believe for one second that one soprano will give you an oboeish tone when compared to another model regardless of age or brand or shape.
Same with mouthpieces, generally speaking. I used to play open mouthpieces (like .065 to .072, various brands) and was able to make the horns sound more like a saxophone than an oboe. But then I switched to closer tips (like Selmer's S-80 D and Vandoren's SL3). Still, with certain reeds, I get the same tone as the more open mouthpieces.
Certain reeds will give me the oboeish tone, a tone I haven't heard from my own horns for years. Currently, I'm using Vandoren ZZ #2 reeds, all of which I've adjusted with a sharp knife. Some give me that oboe-tone and others don't. I even used that same reed with the oboe sound and put it on other mouthpieces. Same sound. It was the reed and reed alone that did for me.
I am convinced that it is the individual reed that gives ME that oboeish sound and nothing else. I suspect that the popular players of today who have that oboe sound do it on purpose and most likely by selecting reeds that help them achieve it. And, this has nothing to do with whether or not an oboe-tone is good or bad. THAT is a different issue. DAVE
First of all, I discount any allegations that the horn matters in our tonal search. Just yesterday, I played all of my sopranos (two Mark VI's ['59 and '72], one '26 Martin, one '27 Conn NWII, and a curved bronze Yanagisawa). You know what comes next - they all had similar tonal qualities and I'd defy anyone listening from behind a wall or other obstruction, to identify one from the other. So, I don't believe for one second that one soprano will give you an oboeish tone when compared to another model regardless of age or brand or shape.
Same with mouthpieces, generally speaking. I used to play open mouthpieces (like .065 to .072, various brands) and was able to make the horns sound more like a saxophone than an oboe. But then I switched to closer tips (like Selmer's S-80 D and Vandoren's SL3). Still, with certain reeds, I get the same tone as the more open mouthpieces.
Certain reeds will give me the oboeish tone, a tone I haven't heard from my own horns for years. Currently, I'm using Vandoren ZZ #2 reeds, all of which I've adjusted with a sharp knife. Some give me that oboe-tone and others don't. I even used that same reed with the oboe sound and put it on other mouthpieces. Same sound. It was the reed and reed alone that did for me.
I am convinced that it is the individual reed that gives ME that oboeish sound and nothing else. I suspect that the popular players of today who have that oboe sound do it on purpose and most likely by selecting reeds that help them achieve it. And, this has nothing to do with whether or not an oboe-tone is good or bad. THAT is a different issue. DAVE
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Dave,
At least the bridge is still there.
Something that has never been mentioned, but after a lot of observation I believe that a person's individual resonance contributes to one's own sound. In other words, if someone has a voice like "James Earl Jones" (one of those deep bass voices) v. a higher voice such as (Tip Toe through the Tulips) "Tiny Tim" there is going to be an individual resonance that will effect what comes out of the horn. I'm not suggesting that's it any kind of controlling factor or anything to do with whether you sound like and Oboe, Clarinet, Flute, Trumpet, Cornet, or French Horn, almost forgot Flugelhorn - only to a minor extent. But, what I'm suggesting is that it is that part of the sound that makes in one's own sound. (Yes, some people have told me that I sound like a French horn in the bottom register and a flute in the upper register, how many instruments can the soprano sax sound like? Well, sounds like a subject for another thread). But, I do feel that it is something that we have to acknowledge when we are working on our own sounds. It may have more of an effect with the deeper more resonant sound than higher up the pitch scale. But when we are working on our sound it may be something that we may want to take into consideration whether we need to compensate for it and just consider it a blessing. I guess all I'm saying is that it's part of the equation.
I guess the other point is our voice changes throughout our life and as it does so does our sound.
Hope you are enjoying your summer.
At least the bridge is still there.
Something that has never been mentioned, but after a lot of observation I believe that a person's individual resonance contributes to one's own sound. In other words, if someone has a voice like "James Earl Jones" (one of those deep bass voices) v. a higher voice such as (Tip Toe through the Tulips) "Tiny Tim" there is going to be an individual resonance that will effect what comes out of the horn. I'm not suggesting that's it any kind of controlling factor or anything to do with whether you sound like and Oboe, Clarinet, Flute, Trumpet, Cornet, or French Horn, almost forgot Flugelhorn - only to a minor extent. But, what I'm suggesting is that it is that part of the sound that makes in one's own sound. (Yes, some people have told me that I sound like a French horn in the bottom register and a flute in the upper register, how many instruments can the soprano sax sound like? Well, sounds like a subject for another thread). But, I do feel that it is something that we have to acknowledge when we are working on our own sounds. It may have more of an effect with the deeper more resonant sound than higher up the pitch scale. But when we are working on our sound it may be something that we may want to take into consideration whether we need to compensate for it and just consider it a blessing. I guess all I'm saying is that it's part of the equation.
I guess the other point is our voice changes throughout our life and as it does so does our sound.
Hope you are enjoying your summer.
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Re: Help! I sound like an OBOE!!! or a Trumpet or a Cornet
Walter Beasley has a great video on the Soprano saxophone which I feel is relevant to this discussion on how to sound like a soprano saxophone.
Check out his demonstration and hope this helps, especially if you are in high school. And yes, we've all been there.
Walter Beasley has a great video on the Soprano saxophone which I feel is relevant to this discussion on how to sound like a soprano saxophone.
Check out his demonstration and hope this helps, especially if you are in high school. And yes, we've all been there.
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Chris: You have a point about the individual having great influence over how any horn sounds.
In my latest reed-experiences, I find that my tone can change drastically by merely affixing a certain reed to my mouthpiece. If I take off that reed and go with other prepper reeds in m y reed-guard, my old tone comes back.
But this only recently jumped out at me after switching to closer-tipped soprano mouthpieces. I am enjoying the change and found that I can still get that oboe-like sound on my more open tips, but not nearly as pronounced as it is with the closer tips.
DAVE
In my latest reed-experiences, I find that my tone can change drastically by merely affixing a certain reed to my mouthpiece. If I take off that reed and go with other prepper reeds in m y reed-guard, my old tone comes back.
But this only recently jumped out at me after switching to closer-tipped soprano mouthpieces. I am enjoying the change and found that I can still get that oboe-like sound on my more open tips, but not nearly as pronounced as it is with the closer tips.
DAVE
i started out on a metal link 8* (recommended to me by Mrs. Levin), which was a steep learning curve, but served me well. great tone. after a little oral surgery, i switched to the C* that came with the horn. very easy intonation, but very Duck! then i went through a number of pieces, recording frequent comparisons. i finally settled on a reworked, large chamber Buescher (thanks, Joe). and then decided to submit to a lesson with a young teacher to revisit the fundamentals. (back a**wards as they'd say.)
my 2 cents: focus hard on technique and see what that gets you first. then play around with a couple of pieces if you still need to zero in on what you want.
my 2 cents: focus hard on technique and see what that gets you first. then play around with a couple of pieces if you still need to zero in on what you want.
Sorry for my late arrival to this post, but as I read through all the entries, I felt the need to add my own thoughts. I have been playing saxophone and oboe professionally as well as teaching both instruments for many years. First thought, the fact that someone told you you sound like an oboe does not give you any real information. The oboe can sound many ways just as the saxophone can. Developing oboists often sound bad and play with poor intonation, just as with the saxophone, but professional level oboe players produce gorgeous sounds. In the classical arena, a great oboe sound can often have soprano-like qualities and vice versa, and this should not surprise us. Performers on both instruments tend to strive for consistent tonal balance, and clear, colorful, warm sounds. Additionally, both instruments have a conical bore and nearly the same range. In fact, the saxophone and the oboe are more closely related acoustically than the sax and the clarinet.
Sound concept was mentioned briefly earlier, but it is the key point here. How do you want to sound? You must develop your sound concept, your mental image of the way you want to sound. This will guide every other decision you make including equipment choices. Realize, though, that certain sounds are inappropriate in certain contexts. Sounding like Kenny G in a sax quartet playing Bozza isn’t likely to go over very well. I think you mentioned that you play in a sax quartet. In that case, go listen to Prism, Zyzyx, etc. The US Army Field Band Saxophone Quartet is a very fine ensemble, and they have many YouTube videos that can help you get started. Additionally, listen to the great classical soloists play soprano: Rousseau, Sugawa, Murphy, Tse, McCallister, etc. They often record oboe pieces on soprano, BTW.
If you want to play mainly play jazz soprano, again who do you want to sound like? Liebman? Koz? Kenny G? There are many, and you need to find the sound where you want to start.
I happen to disagree with the open throat/warm air concept, but that is for another time. The point of having good throat control and plenty of air support was well made and spot on.
Sound concept was mentioned briefly earlier, but it is the key point here. How do you want to sound? You must develop your sound concept, your mental image of the way you want to sound. This will guide every other decision you make including equipment choices. Realize, though, that certain sounds are inappropriate in certain contexts. Sounding like Kenny G in a sax quartet playing Bozza isn’t likely to go over very well. I think you mentioned that you play in a sax quartet. In that case, go listen to Prism, Zyzyx, etc. The US Army Field Band Saxophone Quartet is a very fine ensemble, and they have many YouTube videos that can help you get started. Additionally, listen to the great classical soloists play soprano: Rousseau, Sugawa, Murphy, Tse, McCallister, etc. They often record oboe pieces on soprano, BTW.
If you want to play mainly play jazz soprano, again who do you want to sound like? Liebman? Koz? Kenny G? There are many, and you need to find the sound where you want to start.
I happen to disagree with the open throat/warm air concept, but that is for another time. The point of having good throat control and plenty of air support was well made and spot on.
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Good advice. Just two comments. First, the OP is probably out of college by now, and who knows if he/she is even playing the sax any more? Second, the US Army Field Band videos are a wonderful source. Anyone who has the chance to see the band live should take advantage of it. May be the best of the service bands.
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Yes, the original post was old, but the subject matter haunts some soprano players, making it continuously relevant. Once a thread is opened, all of it may be read with interest by others than the original poster. Besides, reviving old threads is the price we pay for urging others to use the search function. It's okay, in my view. DAVE
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