80s?

My question is, why? I guess marketing. All the other brands introduced the Cooper scale, Bennett scale, Sankyo scale......

and yet, Haynes was a powerhouse & THE flute to own, years before the "Deveau" scale, and no one seemed to have problems playing in-tune, so....

Everyone who likes Haynes wants the ones from the "Rampal" era, (late50s to 1970), those do not have the "Deavaeu" so....

***?

Fuggetta bout it

(thats an inside "haynes" pun, for those who know the history of the company)

 

In my experience the Deveaux scale is a good option. Essentially it helps you play in tune. I had a nice older Haynes flute and when i changed to my new yamaha the pitch was just much friendly for ensemble work. it could have been my specific haynes versus this specific yamaha but you may wish to investigate.

What is traditional vs. modern scale?

A very long subject, but the short of it is in the late '70s Albert Cooper with Rudall-Carte developed the Cooper Scale. This was not a change in scale but a new scheme for the location and size of the tone holes on the flute body. This arrangement raised the traditionally flat notes at the lower end of the instrument and lowered the traditionally sharp notes. The Cooper or modern scale is also called the Deveau scale by some manufactures. The modern scale can be made in various pitches. (A-440, A-442, A-444, A446)
Do flutes improve with age like violins?

In short, no. The long answer is a 30 year old student flute will only play as good as it's mechanics will allow, and at 30 years old it would be showing wear & fatigue and a newer student flute will play circles around it. In addition there have been many improvements in head joint and embouchure hole design so a newer flute has advantages here as well. In the case of expensive hand made flutes, they may or may not play as good as their modern counter parts but they will not "improve" just due to their age. In fact the modern scales and higher pitch of the newer flutes make it a better choice in most cases.

taken from the FAQ of flutesonline dot com.

 

This was not a change in scale but a new scheme for the location and size of the tone holes on the flute body.

Ok, who doesn't love the internet???

 

...and yet EVERYONE (well...almost) here seems to thing Selmer tenor saxophones improve with age and are better than modern ones.....

but flutes, no?

If you are serious & studied player or doubler, you can "deal" with a 40+ year old flute, if thats the sound you want. (btw There are people playing 100 yr old Louis Lots, Rives & Bonneville that have no trouble playing in-tune)

If it aint your cup-of-tea & you are a double & need a go-to flute with few worries, then stay away from, vintage.

also...deveau scale is named after Lew Deveau, the guy who owned Haynes in the 70-80s

 

...and yet EVERYONE (well...almost) here seems to thing Selmer tenor saxophones improve with age and are better than modern ones.....

but flutes, no?

If you are serious & studied player or doubler, you can "deal" with a 40+ year old flute, if thats the sound you want. (btw There are people playing 100 yr old Louis Lots, Rives & Bonneville that have no trouble playing in-tune)

If it aint your cup-of-tea & you are a double & need a go-to flute with few worries, then stay away from, vintage.

also...deveau scale is named after Lew Deveau, the guy who owned Haynes in the 70-80s

I agree here. I have two handmade flutes; a Powell with Cooper scale and an Almeida with traditional scale. I have yet to notice any difference. The bottom line is that the variablility of pitch via embouchure adjustment is so great that the slightly stretched octaves of the traditional scale are immediately and unconsciously adjusted for by any reasonably competent player.

An interesting study was done with 50 flautists playing a single flute. They were asked to reproduce a pitch a number of times. The average pitch variation between trials even for pro players averaged 6 cents; none was able to come closer than 3.8 cents. By slight shading of the embouchure hole it is easy to vary pitch by 30 cents or more, so the really important criterion of a scale is rather consistency between adjacent notes, not whether a given part of the range is slightly sharp or flat.

Toby

 

I'm going to resurrect this post. I have recently acquired a 1988 100th anniversary Haynes handmade flute, complete with 100th anniversary badge! It is engraved "Deveau" at the top of the body.

Did Haynes continue using the Deveau scale, but no longer engrave it on the flute? Do they still use that scale today?

 

I assume that they dropped the Deveau name after he died but probably still use it on their flutes. Similar to Cooper. I think it appeared in the early to mid 80s.

 

I own a Haynes made in 2010 and there's no sign of it saying Deveau anywhere. But I met someone on instagram who has a Haynes flute that says Deveau. When I asked what the model number was, that was her response. She couldn't find any model numbers anywhere. Does anyone know what year they stopped putting Deveau on their flutes?

 

I found an interesting article about this:
http://www.csmonitor.com/1983/0316/031646.html

The late Mr. Deveau claimed that his scale would allow a player to hit each note and stay in tune without lipping.
He stated that the headjoint was the most important part of his flutes and thus were special tapered in a process that could take 3 1/2 hours - while other companies used to take 2-3 minutes.
Also according to him, Japanese flute companies sent their employees on tours of the Haynes company to "spy" the headjoint process.

One thing I could notice at first glance is the hole diameter of the open-hole keys, which seem to be larger than the conventional (a bit like Ed Almeida's flutes).

 

So much snake oil...

The taper of the head is only to equalize the intonation of the lower and middle registers, based on the fact that players shade the embouchure hole in order to overblow. But different players uses different amounts of increased air speed and shorter jet length ( which results in hole shading), so there is no "correct" taper.

Increased perforation diameter in the keys have little effect on anything, since the great majority of venting takes place due to key clearance.

 

I had a premodern scale (cooper/deveau - however) haynes flute 25 years ago, and it sounded so nice! I studied flute these days and my teacher forced me to buy another flute, because of the intonation, so I had to sell the haynes.
C# was really high, but I think it could be adjusted without too much hassle.
Wish I could have kept it .....

 

Here is Jacques Zoon talking about his new flute design

 

It would be nice to see clearer images of the mechanism.

In his playing he seems to have gone out of his way (for efffect) to emphasise intonation issues on the standard flute. Most accomplished players cope pretty well and play in tune - on standard flutes.

 

That is absolutely true. The C# is not hard to play in tune at all.

 

. But i think he has a point and i like thè idea that iT can be solved

 

This is nothing new. John Coltman designed a similar system years ago.

 

I have more trouble keeping a sax in tune than a flute.

 

I thought the thread was about the scale of the flute. It could probably be better ( or different) as mr Zoon ( who is not just a fluteplayer) tried to demonstrate. I believe that you all are very good flute players and that you can play the flute in tune.