I have only played one tenor Buescher 400. It was a nice horn with a very good tone. Not the equal-- for me-- of my King super 20 or Buscher 1943 aristrocrat tenors though in either tone or response.

 

Thanks for responding....Yeah, I've heard there are better models. But I'm looking to expand out to a tenor sax (I only play soprano right now), and I just want to get something decent and try it out for a while.

Does anyone else have any insight? 8)

 

I'm a somewhat decent high school tenor player. The school tenor sax I used to play on sucked majorly, as did the mouthpiece, so I jumped at the chance when one of my friends told me his dad was selling a tenor sax. I bought this sax--a post-Selmer Buescher 400--for $500 and have been very happy with it. Despite the fact that many of the pads are hard as rock and I had to duct tape some metal doo-hickey to the neck after the soldering broke off, the horn sounds pretty good and the intonation is superb.

I am not a very discriminating player, so maybe the tone quality is crap and I just don't know it. I will say with certainty, however, that after playing on it for a while, I've gotten great intonation on this horn. This is especially handy since I am practically tone-deaf. Every note is either dead-on in tune or extremely close to it, and that's without any special effort on my part and the horn in somewhat bad disrepair (it's been half a year and I still haven't taken it to a tech). I can't do any altissimo so I can't speak for the intonation in that range, but I will say that the fingerable notes are wonderful.

If there's any problem with the horn, it's the left hand pinky spatula. I can't really explain it, but the thing is really weird and my left pinky begins to hurt if I ever use it extensively (which, fortunately, I don't ever really have to unless I'm just messing around). The important thing, though, is that while the low three notes can get aggravating, the G# is perfectly fine. Aside from that little trifle, unless you somehow get a complete dud, one of these horns should please you greatly even if it isn't in tip-top shape. Maybe they're not all like this, but my Buescher 400 was definitely built extremely well.

 

I used to own a Buescher Super 400 that I bought used in 1968. I don't really know if it was pre or post Selmer but I remember comparing it to a new Mark VI in 1972 when I was sax shopping. I distinctly recall thinking the Buescher sounded better but I traded it in on the Mark VI anyway because at that time sax players were simply expected to use the Mark VI.

The Mark VI does have a better key lay-out and a better action IMHO, but its not so superior as to shame the Buescher. My biggest complaint with the Buescher lay-out is the left pinky cluster as Boarass said. Trying to play low Bb to low C# is a definite challenge on the Buescher. That said, I would still give the Buescher the nod for tone quality. I wish I still had that Super 400 even though it looked like a student horn with its nickel plated keys, it definitely sounded professional.

As for buying a used Buescher 400 today I would try to find one with a serial number under 450k. This would keep its date pretty close to the Selmer buyout before they did too much in the production-cost-cutting arena. Under 380k would indicate its a true Buescher.
Also make sure the low B and Bb tone holes are on the rear-right side of the bell. At some point Selmer moved these tone holes to the left side and these horns just look like a glorified Bundy. But as always play test any horn first, even if it's serial number is on the high side. You may get lucky and find a gem.

 

I found one, serial 471094. Is this too new to get a good feel and tone?

 

I agree with riff. Get close to 1964 or 65 at the latest. They were still using a lot of the old Buescher parts. After this the bore changed dramatically and they became very different horns. PreBuescher is much better...afterwards they became student/intermediate horns for the most part...not to say that they are junk.

If you want a promodel that approaches (according to experts) the top hat and cane without the price tag get a preselmer version. The later are simply very different designs that carry the same name. I believe 1963 is the last pure Buescher horn year....had one, very nice horns. Keywork is lovely as is the intonation.

 

IIRC, the Buescher400 did become a non-artist level piece shortly, or right at the Selmer aquisition. They incrememntally lost the backmounted bell keys (I believe they lost these before the equisition), underslung octave arm, nortons springs, and snap in pads. I'm not sure at which point the bore design was changed. I have a early 70's 400 tenor (ser # 404xxx) that has the snap ins, norton springs, and underslung octave. It lacks the backmounted keys, but I'm unsure about the bore.

It has a gutsy, big sound to it and has decent response, and yes the cluster is a bit primative, but tolerable.

 

There's a history of the post Top Hat and Cane 400's at http://www.saxpics.com/buescher/docs/400.htm. The 400's kept their back mounted bell keys for two years (1964-1965) after the Selmer acquisition of Buescher. Many people think that the post-acquisition 400's with back bell keys were leftover Buescher inventory, and that the bell keys were shifted to the left side by Selmer when they started manufacturing the 400 themselves in 1966.

Selmer also brought back the underslung octave key in 1966, but I've seen photos of post-TH&C 400's with back bell keys and underslung octave keys. I suspect that if the 400 body remained the same, the tenon size did too, and that someone simply installed the post-1965 underslung octave keys on on older post-TH&C horns.

 

I have a Buescher 400 baritone sax, in silver plate, with the gold bell, and "ribbon" keyguards. It is below 400,000 serial number, and was made in 1963, right about the time of the Selmer buyout.

It plays WONDERFULLY! I could not ask for any better. The lack of low A has never bothered me. BUT, without the long low A bell, the tone is bigger and more resonant. To my ear, bari saxes with low A have a muffled tone, as if a cloth was wadded up in the bell.

 

I might have a lead on an Aristocrat tenor, 388xxx, which according to all the lists puts it in the Buescher/Selmer grey area. Anybody got any thoughts on quality?

 

I might have a lead on an Aristocrat tenor, 388xxx, which according to all the lists puts it in the Buescher/Selmer grey area. Anybody got any thoughts on quality?

Stitch, you might want to double-check this. I could be wrong, but I think a 388k Aristocrat is a mid-50's horn, well before the Selmer buy-out. If so, it could be a great player if it's in good condition.

 

Stitch, you might want to double-check this. I could be wrong, but I think a 388k Aristocrat is a mid-50's horn, well before the Selmer buy-out. If so, it could be a great player if it's in good condition.

Interesting. I didn't know that different models had different serial no ranges. Can anybody else confirm JL's thoughts?

 

Stitch, I don't think the different models do have different ranges. I think JL may be mistaken (although I am willing to be corrected if it is me that is wrong).

388xxx would seem to date the horn around 1963-64 just after the Selmer buy-out.

Billy The Fish

 

I think JL may be mistaken (although I am willing to be corrected if it is me that is wrong).

388xxx would seem to date the horn around 1963-64 just after the Selmer buy-out.

I stand corrected. I have a 331xxx that is about 1950, so I assumed 388xxx would be mid-fifties. Sorry for shooting from the hip. Surely someone knows the answer to this.

 

Yes 331000 is about 1950 but 338 is about 1964 about selmer buyout.It is most probably a genuine buescher as it would have been built useing existing parts from the pre-buyout stock
Dave

 

Two points:

The 388K is late for an Aristocrat. I would stay away.

Secondly, I will go along with Sigmund451's assessment, the more so as I have his old 400. Made in 1960 (serial 361K), it has super fast action and good intonation. The pitch of each note is spot on. More of a rock or R&B sax than my SA80-2; the tone is less mellow.

Mine is one of the odd ones in the immediate post TH&C series which has underslung octave mechanism as well as back bell keys, Nortons, snaps, etc. All I am missing (I think) are the engraving, the nickle silver tone ring and the silver content in the keywork (this is plain nickle).

I am still sorting out the adjustment, but the pinky keys are very workable on this particular sax.

Relacquered, unfortunately, but beggars can't always be choosers. Quite happy with it at present, I would reard this model as a worthwhile investment.

:lol:

 

Buescher 400 S/N 467xxx

As for buying a used Buescher 400 today I would try to find one with a serial number under 450k. This would keep its date pretty close to the Selmer buyout before they did too much in the production-cost-cutting arena. Under 380k would indicate its a true Buescher.
Also make sure the low B and Bb tone holes are on the rear-right side of the bell. At some point Selmer moved these tone holes to the left side and these horns just look like a glorified Bundy. But as always play test any horn first, even if it's serial number is on the high side. You may get lucky and find a gem.

My Buescher 400 S/N 467xxx is a real gem!
Although it's a "Selmer" with underslung octave key this horn is a fantastic player.
The Sound is big and fat and Intonation is very very good.
Mike

 

I recently bought a 400 (alto) at a Goodwill store. Rear bell keys, no tone ring, etc....anyway, without new pads or adjustments is easily my favorite alto now. It blows very freely top to bottom. Intonation is great. I also have a 1st gen. Selmer tenor 400 420xxx I got at a pawn shop. I find these horns are a bargain for the money! Maybe because the reputation of Buescher is almost forgotten on these crappy Taiwan horns that bear the name Buescher. (Ol' Gus must be turning in his grave!). Ironically, I started out on a circa 1980 Buescher alto and have just discovered the greatness that was Buescher! (even the 1st gen. Bueschelmers and the last true 400/Super 400's IMHO). Basically, the post TH&C 400's right before the Selmer buy-out are great!

 

I have two students (two only) and they both play Buescher 400 tenors, one a 403xxx (in the family since new) and one a 406xxx (purchased from Sax Alley). Both are excellent horns: If my horn weren't available (Couf Superba I), I'd feel good about using either of these on a gig.

Lefty

 

Hi all,
regarding the question of serial numbers dates & quality, I've got a few 400's.

a 400 alto 388xxx with original guarantee which states the sale date at 1964 (so it was made before this date) which has LHS bell keys & underslung neck
a super 400 alto 394XXX which has back bell keys & underslung neck
a 400 alto - 1972 which has LHS bell keys & underslung neck. (I've had this one since 1974 . I consider this one to be superior to the 1964 model although I've had it fully reconditioned so maybe not a fair comparison but I think the workmanship is excellent.

also a 400 tenor 478xxx (which I love - plays beautifully). LHS bell keys, underslung neck.

a 400 baritone 486xxx with screw in springs I assume Nortons?) back bell keys & underslung neck.
a 400 baritone 377xxx with screw in springs 9I assime Nortons?) back bell keys & underslung neck. (but different body & neck lengths to the 486xxx model)


so - all over the place as far as dates & bell keys, necks etc. Guess its a little hard to compare things in different states of condition but the '72 model has great intonation & sounds incredibly sweet with an old buescher mouthpiece.

 

The later 400 looks very similar to the Signet alto I had from the 1970s. I didn't like the action (but it wasn't really that bad either) and the metal was thin. However, the high AND low notes came out easier than the brand new P. Mauriat I tested at Sam Ash. It played in tune as far as I could tell also. I traded it for a Super 400 from around 1963 and I really love this horn. Definitely a step up from the Signet. The highs and lows come out easy on the Super 400, and it has a really nice sound. The only thing I don't like is the RH and LH pinky keys, but that's pretty much for all vintage designs.

 

I know this is an old thread but the info is still current: I had a post-Selmer Buescher 400 tenor once that was a fantastic instrument. It just looked like a student horn with that bright yellow lacquer -- ew!

 

I just joined the forum. I have a Buescher 400, SN 358267 that my Dad bought for me in 1958 when I was in 7th grade. Cost was $400. Still plays great. I use Berg Larsen and Otto Link mouthpieces.

 

Isn't that a "top hat & cane" model (the engraving shows a top hat & cane)? If so, that's one of the best tenors ever made. In any case, it's before the Selmer buyout, and therefore it's a 'real' Buescher!

 

You sir, have a very nice horn and most people don't know the provenence of a horn that old.

Welcome to the forum!

 

Is it true that the bari 400s stayed good to the end?

 

Yes,

I own a 1975 63xxxx Buescher 400 tenor that was my main instrument for a long time. Mine has full snaps, underslung neck, later-400 keywork (somewhat different than Aristocrat), big bell flare, rectangular thumb rest, boat-anchor neck-strap eyelet, orange rollers and Scroll engraving.

Mine has excellent intonation and a huge (too big) robust spread sound. My original neck had been badly repaired when I bought it. But I came across a complete refurbished neck that I later discovered came from an earlier Super 400. I had the original tenon fit to this understung neck since it was different. This neck and the curled tip and the same dimensions as the TH&C neck. It helped foster a slightly more focused sound. This is the sax in my avatar.

These are very good saxophones and there are very loud and powerful. The keywork is much heavier than the Aristocrats and Bundy's of the same era. And even the ribbing on the neck and bow are the same as earlier 400's. I suspect these were made from left-over part stocks, but I have no way to know that.

However, as much as I like my 400, it does not hold a candle to my 1941 Big B Aristocrat. The pre-war Crat is much more refined with a very focused almost Selmer-like core. And it's much more usable in just about any situation. So in the end, I would recommend the late 400 to anyone that wants a strong and larger-than-life sound. But if you want something different than that, you probably want a different tenor.

I've been considering selling mine. But the thing just looks and feels so cool, I hate to part with it.