Take the difficulty of maintaining a single relationship, such as marriage or long-term dating, and multiply it by the need to maintain 4 or more similar relationships (with each other band member) at the same time.

In case that is not difficult enough, add in the "LSD" factor (lead singer disease). In case your band does not have a lead singer, well, there is probably *someone* who has a prima donna complex.

I would say it is a natural result of humans being humans.

 

...and multiply it by the need to maintain 4 or more similar relationships (with each other band member) at the same time.

You must include the band members' significant others in that mix.

I've seen this all my life, from duos to 18-piece bands, from many-year partnerships to nine-day cruises. It just happens.

 

It's the nature of not only bands, chamber groups, and orchestras. It's just about any grouping of humans. Music does not make us exempt.

 

Wasn't Metallica one of those bands that does group therapy pretty much every week?

That said, I think if members decide they are going to behave in a professional manner then these problems are reduced greatly. But most bands do not have members that have made a commitment to behave that way.

The genre of the music is also, I feel, a key factor in these situations. You are playing in genre(s) that often celebrate excess - and there are many other genres that fall into this category as well. It is hard to avoid this, especially when the audience is expecting excess from you as a group and members get caught up in those expectations. I haven't met too many chamber groups with substance abuse issues, although I suppose they're out there, somewhere...

SJ
p.s. the hip-hop equivalent of LSD: MCD (emcee's Disease)

 

The answer is yes and you have done very well to remain in your band for 15yrs! The rub is it never changes! there is no mellowing with age I'm afraid. That said whats the substitute? whats better than playing in a decent band-- only a great one. I've realised that after nearly 40 yrs of playing--- i signed up for life!! Regards BF

 

So my question: Is this the nature of bands? Is it the nature of life, only amplified a little because musical endeavors are intrinsically more personal and emotional? Are we as musicians a bunch of prima donna drama queens, incapable of sharing the sandbox? Is this the human condition?

Just throwing it out there for discussion. . . Maybe I'm just becoming a grumpy curmudgeon in my old age. Thoughts?

From one grumpy curmudgeon to another, the answers are yes, yes, yes, and yes. I've been involved over the years in many kinds of musical groups and all have had their ongoing dramas, some more than others to be sure. And I've been guilty of getting sucked into the maelstrom at times. I'm getting better with age at being on the side of constructive involvement (vs denial and disengaging), while side stepping the major pitfalls--a difficult wire to walk and I often fall off. I've found the soap opera metaphor to be helpful in maintaining a constructive distance and some sense of humor about the ongoing melodrama. There was a saying of sorts among academics that the reason that the politics in academia are so vicious is that so little is at stake. I've often thought that applied as well to musical groups, particularly to the unpaid amateur ones, which are the only ones with which I have direct experience.

Sorry for rambling on----actually I don't think such difficulties are limited to musical groups---most organizations have a few divas and divos knocking around---but I suspect they exist in greater numbers in music and other performance areas.

Enjoyed your vent, Mike. It does help to share war stories.

Ruth

 

yes, I have to admit it. I never been on a band for more than 5 to 8 years because of this very same issue. Usually, to make it all worse, the less talent the musician has the more stupid issues it brings to the band. I cannot say that I haven't mellowed down with age, but the mellowing or "takeiteasyness" goes as follows: at first you just can't help it and get into every little minute stupidity, then you jump out for sort of important things, then when something doesn't fits your mood that day you just pack your horns and go home, to eat junk food and watch TV while listening to some good ole records, all of the aforementioned while playing your favorite horn (or the horn that gives you the most headache so you actually need to study every day) in your underwear. Not a nice picture, huh?

 

I think some of it depends on the age and experience of all the band members. It also depends on the interpersonal/communications skills of key members of the band. I've been in lotsa bands over the years. I'm in 2 now - 1 plays a few times a month and has been going on for several years now. The other plays once in a while and has also been going off and on for a few years. In both cases I think the soap opera factor is kept to a minimum because the band members CHOOSE to not have that be part of the deal. If someone in either band started to go soap opera on us, we'd just get rid of him. Also, when something has started to get weird, I'll go towards it, not away, and get the problem sorted out. I think that's the other key - confront band member's head trips, melodramas, and jerk behavior directly and tell them to get it together or get on down the road. I'm too old and life is too short to put up with players who are hard to work with. I'm here to play good music and to have a good time. If you're getting in the way of that, I'll do something about it.

 

I think some of it depends on the age and experience of all the band members. It also depends on the interpersonal/communications skills of key members of the band.

I agree. As I became more experienced and met more experienced musicians, I saw fewer head trips and head cases.

And fewer non-bandmembers showing up at rehearsals.

 

About 6 months ago, I made the tough decision of quitting my own band (or "fired" everyone, depends which way you want to look at it) because of such soap opera/prima dona issues that I could not cope with anymore - By that I mean that I was starting to have health problems; physical symptoms of stress, anxiety and depression among other - I didn't make the connection right away between the health symptoms I was experiencing and what was going on in my band but when I did make the connection, it became clear that I had to save my own butt rather than try to save my band.

I guess everyone has a different level of tolerance for this sort of thing, but I think it is fair to say that when things start to get toxic in a band or any kind of relationship, it really is no fun at all for no one, and in the end everybody loses.

Are musician or "artists" more prone to jealousy, territoriality, substance abuse, self-destructive behavior, etc... than others? - I think No; insecure people are.

Actually what helped to make me realize something was seriously wrong with the dynamic in my band was the fact that I had previously joined another band where such problems don't exist. At first, I couldn't believe it. I would have never thought it was possible to show-up for reharsal, chat a little bit with the boys sipping a cup of coffee, then go downstairs, unpack my saxophone, put sheet music on the stand, sit my but on the chair and the rehearsal begins. Then after the rehersal is over,, pack up my stuff, say "Goodnight everyone, see you next week" and go back home - I thought it was maybe just a phase but no, I been with that band for over a year now and things haven't changed, everyone gets along very well and the band is doing great.

It then occured to me that the reason why I didn't see that the dynamic in my band was all wrong before quitting it, must be because I wasn't going out much, I didn't play with a lot of other musicians, I didn't get outside of my little circle and therefore, I did not know what else was out there. I did not know what it was like to play with normal, level headed, equilibrated people - So there, my advice is, go out there, meet new people, new experiences, widen your horizons

 

It seems to me that what these groups really lack is a strong leader. A man that rules with an iron fist. Someone whos chops are without question far superior to the rest of the band. Someone that meditates standing on his head and has a cool calm attitude no matter what's thrown at him. A guy that knows all the answers before they're asked.

If you have a bunch of equals you get nothing but anarchy.

 

It seems to me that what these groups really lack is a strong leader. A man that rules with an iron fist. Someone whos chops are without question far superior to the rest of the band. Someone that meditates standing on his head and has a cool calm attitude no matter what's thrown at him. A guy that knows all the answers before they're asked.

If you have a bunch of equals you get nothing but anarchy.

You don't get much music made either.

You have a soloist with sidemen.

 

In a word yes. my last full time band was a mess. egomaniacal bass player, who had to control everything, who begged the crowd for encores, forced incredibly long sets, drank too much, and sheeple. I started to look forward to not playing, that was when I realized it was time to bail. Many of the others shortly thereafter followed my lead, drummer, 2 guitarists, and the other sax player. That gang formed another band which I sit in with from time to time, and fill in for the other sax man, it's a joy to play with those guys.

 

In effect, the band fired the bass player. If a player is that dysfunctional, you have to get rid of him one way or the other. I always say don't fire a player until you have his replacement, but the other solution is to quit and form another band. Sometimes the whole band walks.

The really difficult decisions are when the player is very good but too much of a problem. Sometimes you go on too long putting up with the problem behavior because the music is so good. But eventually it will crash. One band I'm in had a terrific drummer, but he was such a drunk it just got too tiring waiting for him to show up for the gig. The singer/guitar player even wrote a song about it. The band broke up over it, but got back together later with a new drummer. He's not as good, but he's reliable. Sometimes the old drummer will sit in for a few tunes and the guitar player and I just grin at each other because he's so fun to play with - he responds to solos, changes up the beat in subtle ways but keeps a really strong groove, etc. - but we just can't work with him on a regular basis. So it goes ...

 

I'm fortunate to play in a group with a guy I've played music with since jr. high school. Just last week, as we rehearsed a bit for an upcoming job to figure out what would work and what wouldn't, I couldn't help but appreciate how we were on the same page with just about every decision. You see, he's played in groups I've led and I've played in groups he's led. Now, whichever one of us gets the job leads the group, and we hire the rest of the group from a pool of musicians depending upon what we need and who is available. No, it's not a traditional band, or group of like minded individuals all working for one; but it certainly does seem to be the way to do business.

 

It's funny. I've formed a band with some guys from work, and we've had little to no drama. Of course our goals are very limited; we're going to play 6 songs at the Christmas party and call it a day. We have three rehearsals left. We all work very hard in our day jobs and no one wants to take this seriously, not even to play one real gig or open mic. So if I want to do that, I'll join some other band. Anyway, we used to have a ton of drama at work, but not the kind of ultra-crazy stuff mentioned above; just professional jealousy and negativity. Then we got new management, and one of them has the skills to confront issues head on, and get them settled. I think rather than rule with an iron fist, what you need is something of an egoless facilitator to get over the drama. Someone who stays positive, but confronts eye-rolls and snickers immediately.

 

A band doesn't have to be a social model, however; especially when it's work. Someone has to make the decisions and/or break the tie. All groups recognize this, and if they don't fall in line they fall apart. Now that doesn't mean that valued input can't come from the other members, and a good leader will know what to use to keep them happy. But a democracy? Reminds me of what Roger Waters once said about Pink Floyd; we pretended it was a democracy for a while...

 

This should be a poll with 2 answers:
1) Yes
2) I've never been in a band.

 

Yep. Sad, but true.

 

I used to think funerals and grief bring out the worst in people. Then I joined a band.

 

I think the most important lesson one could get out of this thread is not to sleep with the bass or guitar players wife.

 

What about the piano/keyboard players wife?

 

... I just wish it was the '80's again.

 

It isn't?

 

A friend of mine once said, "The worst gigs make the best stories." If you can be detached enough during the drama you will come out with stuff to talk about. The story about how we all showed up on time, played well, got paid and went home after the gig is not as entertaining as the story about how the guitar player had an affair with the drummer's sister who was the singer's surrogate mother who goot so drink that the police took him off the stage causing a riot, blah, blah...
If it's not a money gig, then you get paid in drama, whether or not that's what you want.

 

The story about how we all showed up on time, played well, got paid and went home after the gig is not as entertaining...

I worked a lot with an Orlando bass player who is widely known as a complainer. He always finds stuff to complain about. One night we had the perfect gig. Nice room, good pay, open bar, good piano, comfortable musician's lounge, all the guys could play, the patrons appreciated our playing and did not request dumb tunes. The perfect gig. The bass player was beside himself. We saw him fidgeting around, nervous because there was nothing to bitch about. I thought he would explode. Finally, unable to stand it any longer, he began to complain about the gig he'd worked the night before.

 

Have I ever told the story about the B3 player who packed-up during "Give it to me Baby" after having it out with his wife, the singer?

 

Didn't I see that story on Fox News?

 

Yes, it WAS Fox News!

She was fairly balanced on top of the B3 singing to him.

 

Okay. I can agree with that. There comes a time when SOMEBODY has to take the reins.

 

Who knows - My (working) R&B outfit smokes like Rastas and has no clear leadership...I can't recall an argument in over a year. Even when we had to ban drinking until the last set due to a really bad gig, the discussion was civil and we compromised........Now the Jazz thing I'm doing is half made up from church bands - Two of us are in complete control - They drink nothing but fruit juice and water and don't smoke - It's a stress factory - arguments are common, noses are in the air. Go figure....

 

Who knows - My (working) R&B outfit smokes like Rastas and has no clear leadership...I can't recall an argument in over a year.

When I was the Token member of a Reggae band, there was a catch phrase commonly used whenever any problem presented itself: "No Problem, Mon!"

Frankly, I'm sure everyone has problems, mine are monumental. There's nothing better than having a bunch of guys in a basement to blow a primal scream at every once in a while. Heck, how can you be expressive without having a load to express. If the other guys in the room don't get it, friggem.

I've written several songs over the years, one that comes to mind is a love song I penned while in a punk band in 1979-80. I called it "I beat her with a rake!"

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhh Yesssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The band I am in has been together (for the second time) almost 15 years.

The "legacy" members of the band (the core five) originally formed the band back in college in the late 60's. After graduation, they went their separate ways to find their fortunes and raise families. After a quarter of a century apart, a couple of the guys bumped into each other.... and it was a Blues Brothers moment... "We have to put the band back together"!

The nice part is, we only play about once a month, and we all live in different cities all over northern and central Ohio (Plus our lead guitar player lives in Connecticut). We still have soap opera moments CONSTANTLY!

If we played any kind of regularly, I think we would have killed each other years ago!

It's the double edged sword...

But it is STILL the most fun you can have with your cloths on!!!!

 

The nice part is, we only play about once a month

That's another reason it tends to go smoothly with 11 people. We don't play that often. Everyone looks forward to the next gig. It's getting hard to organize now, though, since we're in Birmingham and 2 of our core guys are currently living in Houston.

 

Yeah, don't sleep with band mates nor their spouses and everything should be manageable.

 

Yeah nothing screws up work relationships more than that. It took me a few times to finally learn that it's too much of a hassle to mix work and pleasure.

 

I had a funk/fusion jazz group in the 70's - playing Herbie Hancock, Grover Washington, etc. We were 5 pieces, then we added a woman on soprano sax. The guys were all young and starting out as players. Over time, every one of them slept with the soprano player. She eventually left because it just got too weird.

 

That's funny, she turned a quintet into a sextet!

It sounds like she needed a big band experience next with Woody's Thundering Herd!