I started to write my thoughts on this and changed my mind.
There are so many things wrong with these questions and this line of thinking I cannot even begin.

Use a little common sense and whatever scruples you have to figure this one out for yourself.

 

I was about to respond and then read sax rookie's response. It's beautiful. So all I'll say is...I second the motion.

 

well

I dont quite see what you 2 don't want to say.

I will go ahead an jump in.

I am also not very Religious, and from my point of view, places of worship that would ALLOW a sax to join in tend to be more progressive and would tolorate non-believers more.

A more conservative place might want to convert you, but I generally so not see modern instruments playing there.

There certainly will be exceptions to those observations, and thay are just that - my observations.

Regarding the 2nd point, I suggest calling a non-denonominational church and asking them for a list of their usual songs. There may not be good mustic listed, so you might need to get some modern sacred CDs and learn by ear, but maybe im wrong

 

Thanks Dingfelder.

Hey sax rookie and gary, if you think my question was out of order please tell me. How will I know what I did wrong if I am not told? Do you scold a puppy for peeing on ning..........I have the ability to add stars and ratings to my mouthpiece reviews. Up to this point I have only used these for my video lessons but this morning I had the thought that it would be cool to add them to the mouthpiece reviews. That way otheted the post and hastily apologized without hesitation. With the response that you threw in my face, my only opinion of you is that you're both jerks.

Once again, thanks Dingfelder.

 

Here's my point of view (after agonizing over whether to reply or not):

Being a REGULAR church musician is, in my opinion, being in a position of leadership. The Word gives some guidelines for being a leader in the church. Having said that, I believe that most large churches that hire orchestras for some special productions do, indeed, hire the personnel required to perform the task for pay - regardless of how "religious" they are.

Seeking a REGULAR position in a church for some extra dough is probably not going to fly in most churches because, in my mind, it's akin to the "money-changers" that Jesus ran out of the temple. Using God's house STRICTLY for financial gain is wrong - there are other avenues to make money other than the church.

A more conservative place might want to convert you, but I generally so not see modern instruments playing there.

Most Christian churches adhere somewhat to God's Word and the Great Commission is a direct charge to Christians to "convert" non-Christians. Don't get down on us for tryin'!

I'd like to see you guys in church - try it....ya might like it!

Love in Christ,

Greg

 

Hey sax rookie and gary, if you think my question was out of order please tell me
...my only opinion of you is that you're both jerks.

LOL!!! Well, then, I guess there's not much point in responding, is there?

 

Hi Tenorsaxer,

Well, this is quite a question!! I think its fair enough asking, and Im sorry for the other 2 guys comments cause how are you supposed to know if you dont ask? (I dont mean to offend sax rookie or gary, Im just trying to get this back to a peaceful thread! )

Firstly, Im from Australia and a largeish modern kind of church so I might be coming from a different viewpoint then some American churches. Secondly, these are my thoughts, so you dont have to like or agree with them

For starters, none of the musicians at my church are payed. So, you would skip my church anyway if you were looking for $.

I would (if I was in charge of a church worship team) have no problem with you coming along to our services or to practices etc, but I would not let you play in church, no matter how good you were. I belive that we do more than play music, we worship. We are a worship team, not a music team. You have to know God/Jesus (ie. be saved, born again etc) to worship him. I know it sounds kind of airy fairy, but its kind of hard to explain. Like, I said, no problem with non-belivers coming to church, hanging out at practices, but playing in a service, I think its a absolute minimum that you be saved if you are going to be an actice part.

After all that being said, I have heard of churches that have used non chrisitan pros in services. I dont think its as simple as saying "go to a progressive non denominational church cause they are less strict". My church has higher standards then just being christian. You have to go through pastoral checks and stuff before you are even allowed to play in a service.

I hope this came out ok, with grace as I intended it to be.

If you wanted to look into what type of music a lot of churches are playing, go into a christian bookstore and check out vineyard and hillsongs stuff. There is lots more out there so if anyone else can suggest any.

Rock On
jonno

 

good question

All questions are good if they seek an honest answer and you are right to ask and find out.

At my church, many on the team call me Pastor-Saxman. I need to preach for just a minute.

The Church is not a high society club for insiders. It is a place for Truth Seekers to feel welcome. If you go to a church that does not welcome un-believers in, it might not be a Christian Church at all.

God cares so much about the unsaved he spread his arms out and died for them, and us too since none of us were born into grace; we choose God's free gift, leaving the judgment we were born into and chose God's forgiveness.

Now, as I understand the difference between my responsibility to my brothers in Christ, and individuals that have not made a decision to follow Jesus; We are commanded to Love the non-believer. We are to Love the Lost in this World; Period. We are also told to hold each other up and be accountable to one another in the Church. We are even told to make Judgment calls - i.e. Judge one another in the Church. We have rules to follow regarding protocol in these matters and direction as to how to handle fallen Church members and falling members.

Don't see to much preaching on this stuff these days, but it's all in the book.

It is not politically correct, but God works outside of our ideas and collective decisions since he is God. He can. He is bigger than our system of understanding or world views since he made this stuff; like a watch maker and a watch. He can no sooner reduce Himself to the size or level of His creation than the watch maker can crawl into or become the lesser, simple, mechanical creation he created. ...but I digress.

C.S. Lewis addressed this issue years ago when he asked a simple question. How can you expect a non-believer to live like something he is not? The reason the Bible calls the un-saved lost is because they are. They are not bad, they are lost and that is bad.

Being lost is not the issue. Dieing lost is a tragedy. We all started lost. Thank God many in this thread are no longer lost to God and His goodness.

Helping the lost find Jesus is the reason you and I are still breathing.
None of this makes any sense away from that fact.
You can't expect Tenorsaxer to understand what makes this music different from music that is not worship. You can't expect him to know stuff he has not had explained to him. You can't expect him to act like a Christian until he makes that decision. And, you can't rebuke him for the asking.

As I stated above, we are to love the non-believer and we are to be politically incorrect and hate the sin, but we are to hold our brothers by a higher standard because they know the truth.

The first 2 responses make me sad. SaxRookie and Gary should never have responded so crass. Since I am lead to believe you are Christians, I say to you both to chill and love lost people out of this discussion thread and into the Church body. As your brother, I don't think either of you can feel good about those posts since there is NO love there.

To Tenorsaxer,
I am sorry you got that kind of response. I think the purpose of Worship Music would leave you feeling pretty unrewarded with your involvement since none of it is really about the music but about Worshiping God. Any good Worship Leader would trade your talents for bringing the Church closer to God and without a relationship to God, it would not make much sense.

I think there are better places for you to explore making music for the meantime, and would hope that you might consider the message of the Gospel on a personal level first.

The message of Christmas is all about God going way out of His way to make a way for us to know Him. He came as a baby because He did not want to scare us. He lived around us to show us how He would want us to live and he died so we would not have to go to Hell. He rose again from the dead to show his power over death, so we don't have to fear it, to give us real hope for the future and so we could have free admission into Heaven to live with Him after all this stuff is said and done.

That is the foundation of what we do and why we Worship Him in lots of ways including music in Church. It is also why a non-believer might feel frustrated since the Worship is including music but not all about the music.

Thanks for asking.

My prayer is that you find the work you need and the space in your heart to explore God's truth and plan for your life.

Thanks, I'm done now.

Merry Christmas and much Blessing to each as they live and serve.

Pastor-SAXMAN

www.gregvail.com

 

For what it's worth, my wife's church frequently hires auxillary musicians (string and brass quartets) to supplement their all volunteer choir during Advent and Easter. While all the singers are parishoners who freely volunteer their time and talents, the positions of choir director and accompanist are paid. The various beliefs of the hired musicians aren't generally considered and doesn't seem to affect the enhancement of the service to the worshipers.

I know a fellow who had a sax quartet that specialized in sacred music; they would look for opportunities to play (paid) gigs in various religious venues.

I think people understand that professionals need to get paid - it's their livelihood! You'd pay a plumber, a groundskeeper, etc. - why not the band?

 

After re-reading my post, I do realize that it was a bit crass and blunt. For this I apologize.
I started to write a missive about what I thought were the right reasons that a person should want to play in a worship band, but the more I thought about it, the more frustrated I became. I then deleted my post and quickly wrote the short bit that I posted. I would have hoped that TenorSaxer, no matter how "un" Christian he may be, should know in his heart the reasons that people choose to want to play for thier church. To want to play in a church worship band for strictly profit is both the wrong place and for the wrong reason.
I have read posts in here about players who have played in their worship band for years for no money and are beginning to have second thoughts about pay. All of these players have struggled with this and have turned to others for advice. I also understand that additional musicians have been brought in to play for a large production such as Christmas or Easter services. These scenerios are both fine with me. The first is a conflict of available time and dedication, the second a lack of players for the job.
My knee-jerk respose to TenorSaxers post was the same as if he had written "I am not an alcoholic, but I like to hang out at AA meetings because it's a great place to get dates."
TenorSaxer, if you honestly posted your question without sarcasm and selfishnessness, I apologize. I appreciate the follow-up posts that Saxboy and others had left to more politely and eloquently explain my thoughts on your question.
Good luck in your quest.

 

Hey, Tenorsaser, glad you asked the question. Go play at Church for a few bucks, THEN, see if it changes your life like it did mine. Well put, Pastor Saxboy... Bless You, Big Jim :wink:

 

Sorry, I misspelled Tenorsaxer.. Bless You, Jim

 

(I wrote the following response off-line before I was aware sax rookie had written his more detailed post above. What I wrote was not influenced by what he has said, even though a reference I make to him might seem so. You'll just have to believe me. I'm letting my post stand without modification. Here it is

Folks, I wasn't going to respond to being called a jerk and I thought it might be more appropriate to defer to other Forum members who have a sincere experience in matters of faith to answer Tenorsaxer, so I just let it go. But since I seem to keep surfacing in these posts perhaps I should say something.

I did not mean to insult you, Tenorsaxer. If anyone thinks that was my purpose, I hope it was not lost on readers that, when called a jerk, I did not react with personal insults and attacks but with a friendly disclaimer.

What I was reading into, and responding to, in your message was that you might want to reflect on your question and it's implications. That's what I took away from sax rookie's post. I didn't feel he was being as judgemental as that he just was a bit frustrated with coming up with a tactful answer.

I come from a religious tradition that returns questions of a religious or philosophical nature not with direct answers, but with other, more pointed questions. The intention is to help the questioner find, for him/herself the answers within. The goal is that the answers found in this introspection will be more meaningful, therefore I didn't give you a direct answer.

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. So I figured first you might discover for yourself what might be a bit misguided about the question the way it was put and the motives given. Since that is passé now, here is a direct answer which you believe you are due.

If your intention is finding a way to make money, I would proceed cautiously when looking for pay gigs in churches where you are a non-believer. It seems to me it could be interpreted to be a bit of an insult to these churches and their members. It is, of course, for these members to decide and not me. But I would keep in mind that in the average church, participation as a musician is voluntary and is usually a service freely given to the house of worship and God. To try to "get a gig" alongside these members might be seen as off the mark and resented, if not, at least, unwelcomed.

There are, of course, pay positions in houses of worship that are professional positions where musical expertise is almost as important as the musician's faith. These are usually the musical director's positions and one might find an Episcopalian as a music director in a Methodist church but this director might be a professional church music director where adequate compensation is expected. But in most cases, these musicians still share some of the same beliefs and values. But this is not your category. For you to look for gigs in a house of worship just to make money could be seen as mercenary and inappropriate.

To get a better understanding of your question, you might take a look at the thread on this Forum http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=10466 which has some excellent ideas and thoughts about this subject.

This is not the time of year to be hassling one another and I am sorry that my initial response to Tenorsaxer 's question brought such a negative reaction. It was not my intention.

 

cool guys

Glad to see everyone getting along. We all have about the same heart on these issues but get there from some different paths. It's not like I haven't come off a jerk in a hasty response a few times before.

Thanks for all the thoughts represented and a chance to add to these discussions.

Peace,

SAXBOY

www.gregvail.com

 

Gary- Now I understand why you and sax rookie reacted in the way you did. And I am sorry for calling you both jerks. I will think more befor eposting on subjects like this in the future.

Saxboy- You always seem to know the right thing to say to me.

Thanks everyone.

 

To come up with a good play list for playing in church, I suggest you attend and study the service and doctrin to get a full understanding of your purpose and function in the worship service.

 

Greg - BLESS YOU for your tremendous ability to reach out here. I can see God has blessed you not only with musical talent, but the gift of being a peacemaker as well. Bravo!
At the risk of sounding 'shallow' here is my story - after being a Christian for many years, I now think I hear the calling to join the worship band in our church. 2 years ago I started playing sax again after almost 20 years. Surprising how fast it came back, with Gods blessing (and practice!!) Anyway, what I mean to say by all this, I can't even imagine being a part of a worship leading team without being firm in my own beliefs. And as Saxboy mentioned - there are bigger issues to deal with before deciding to play worshipful music from a less than worshipful mindset.
Blessed Holiday to all - remember to keep the CHRIST in CHRISTmas

Mark

 

Thanks Mark

....and blessings to you this special time of year!

Let us know where God leads you as you open yourself and your passion for music to Him.

SAXBOY

 

A few extra bucks:

First of all, this is a general response to the question. It is no assessment on anyone's playing, since I haven't heard any of you play live. Although, it is addressed to Tenorsax the answer is strictly related to playing in a church for money and addressed to anyone person.

TS: As you have found out this can be a touchy subject. I firmly believe that it really doesn't make any difference whether or not you are "religious" or not. The brutal reality is that making side money from a church is like finding a needle in a haystack and the haystack is surrounded by a moat full of alligators. This of course applies to those folks actually "in the faith," let alone a non-religious type.

The main criteria is that you can play well, have great tone, read on the spot, and do what the music director wants. Gotta tell you that overall all Tenor saxes are not real big on the Church scene unless you find a Church that already uses then. Otherwise, you are in the process of breaking new ground and not being "in the faith" isn't going to help any.

If this is simply a question of money, then instead of going out and buying a whole bunch of Church type sheet music, save your money and buy a trumpet. Trumpets are real big during Easter and Christmas. Saxophones? Eh. Soprano's maybe because they can fill it for a Baroque trumpet as in Ravel's Bolero. Otherwise, I really do not know what to tell you.

As you can well imagine, saxophones are only allowed in certain churches. So, you may want to reduce your search to those type of Churches. Just for ducks, you may want to perform a google search. A few examples are:

"Praise and Worship" AND "Your hometown"

"Worship Team" AND "Your hometown"

You can also limit it by year: AND "2004." This keeps it current.

There are some Churches in your area that might from time to time need a tenor saxophone player. I started with your hometown of Phoenix. Just give it a google and it appears that there are some possibilities there. Let them know that your are available and see where it goes.

As far as going out and buying any kind of sheet music, I'd say forget it. You have to know how to read right off the sheet and on the spot. You are getting paid and this is expected of folks that are out "for hire." Especially in a Church where pro's and semi pro's volunteer. When one walks in these things are expected.

The Director of the Church will have all of the sheet music you need, so there is no need to spend the side money when the intent is to make side money. On top of which, music directors don't like doing what the Church done the block is doing. They compete. So, wait and see what they have instead of anticipating what you are going to do.

Depending on the Church, a lot of times one has to transpose on the spot. It's not an exception. You might be given a four part in concert key and asked to play one of the lines. If the Director wants the Tenor sax to play lead on a song, definitely expect it in Concert key. If it is given to you in Bb key, chalk it up to a miracle even though you are not religious.

One has to remember that the music is only a support system for the service. This is not like playing a concert. People sitting in the pews have nothing better to do than to listen to what you are playing. You have a captive audience and they are there for other things beside the music. Also, it's not a cocktail party where you are playing over the chatter.

The amount you can improvise depends on the Director. Some will allow it and other won't.

Get ready to sit around. This isn't about you, it's about the choir. So expect to sit around until the choir gets their parts down. This can consume over half of the rehearsal and last time I looked no one gets paid by the hour. Some Churches pay for rehearsal time others don't. If you are playing in a cold building the horn will get cold. If you are playing in a cold church and the preacher winds out, you guessed it. If you have backed up a vocalist, you know about waiting. Just imagine waiting for a whole choir. You have to be ready to play at all times. Don't bring a book, they will think you are rude. It also helps to smile a lot and act like you are happy to be there.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just trying to give you a picture of what is involved in making "side money."

It helps if you are in a situation where the music is good. It will make you sound better and give you some exposure. However, not all Churches sound great. And when getting paid that may wind up to be your job.

Yep, TS there may be some "side money" there, but it's not your average gig.

It's Church and Church is a whole new dimension.

You have nothing to lose by giving it a try.

As always, Peace.

Chris.

 

Did you ever thing thing that just the idea of Tenorsaxers's wanting to play in a religious environment could be part of his plan. Sure he may start out playing for Money and then just hang around others and find out that hey.. there might really be something to this. All I can say is best of luck to you Tenorsaxer. Try the more contemporary churches though.. You may really find you like the music and whats going on !!

Als

 

Not trying to second guess...

Did you ever think that just the idea of Tenorsaxers's wanting to play in a religious environment could be part of his plan.

Nope, Tenorsaxer wanted to know about the money, the mula, the dinero. Didn't ask about anything else. Have to give TS points for saying that he is non-religious. At least he is straight up about it.

…part of his plan.

Who knows? It is not for me to figure out where this is all going. Just answering the question as presented.

On another thread, Tenorsaxer was giving some serious consideration at working on a cruise ship in a few years. That also might be "…part of his plan." So, no judgments one way or the other and nothing against anybody. I really don't try to read into what "his plan" is all about. Always been on a need to know basis.

If the situation is strictly for money, then there is a different dimension and different things are expected. Just taking it one step at time and wanting to have Tenorsaxer's eyes open if and when the time comes. Anything past that is outside of my jurisdiction.

On another thread, Saxboy writes:

You will always work if people look good because of you.
I make people look good; that's my job. I do it with a sax.

I couldn't agree more. It's not about one's own playing per se. It's about the whole, and how everything fits. This can be a hurdle at times, especially when one thinks that they have something to say musically and find out that they are stepping on someone else part.

One can praise alone in the shed, because God is there. In Church, it's about community.

In Church, we not only must make the people we play with look good, but also the entire congregation.

Well, jus kick me off the pulpit, AGAIN. Better stop now before someone puts on their combat boot.

As always, Peace.

Chris.

 

Chris, I'm not saying that is it right for Tenorsax to play for money in Church, all I am saying that stranger things have happened to bring people into the Church. None of us know what Gods real plan is to get people to believe, but this might be a start !!

Als

 

Simple. If they are asking and they are paying it is a business transaction by nature. There are many people in parts of the country that professionally play churches. Many of them in churches different or even those in theological opposition to their own. The music is for the congregation, not the musician. Business, simply business.

 

My Dad was a professional singer who spent many years singing in Church (for pay) on Sundays, and in a Synagogue (for pay) on Saturdays. The leaders who hired him were mostly concerned that he sang well, could read fluently, knew the hymns (of whatever denomination he was hired by), showed up on time, and sent a good substitute when he wasn't available. Questions of belief didn't enter into his being hired at all. There was never any subterfuge on his part. I met enough other similarly employed musicians over the years to conclude that this is pretty commonplace.

I presently play sax in a band with a pastor who is studying intensively, so that he can play his horn in Church. I have met a number of other religious leaders as well, who use music to help inspire their congregations. Clearly, these religious leaders are not monetarily motivated in their desire to play.

When I came across this thread I discussed it with my pastor friend. His reaction was that as nice as it is to be spiritually motivated, sometimes it's nice to have a pro on hand to keep things sounding good!

 

Tenorsaxer, I think this is one of those situations where, if you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer. That's not to belittle you: it's much the same when I ask my friends about football.

For me, when I play in Church, I'm principally aiming it at an audience of one (or One, if you want to be all religious). You will know the term "worship". I am trying, more with my heart than with my instrument, to tell God how wonderful he is. I am also, I hope, with the rest of the band, encouraging the congregation in their worship.

Neither the congregation or God is too concerned about how technically proficient I am. They notice the bum notes, perhaps, and I certainly do, but the essential part of what we are doing is not what is seen or heard.

And, since God has given me everything I have, right down to a reasonably-paid job I enjoy and my lovely Lakland bass, I would feel it was inappropriate for me to ask for payment for telling God how wonderful he is.

I hope that helps a bit, and isn't too mystical. As you've seen from the many wise posts above, we can get it wrong sometimes.

Finally, I hope you have tried to get a gig at a Church. I hope you got a loving welcome, and even if there wasn't a paid gig, I hope you found out what we're about.

Stevie